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Using adult actresses and nude models to infer what heterosexual men prefer in women’s looks

I have argued on some occasions that using top-ranked adult actresses and nude models to infer the optimal preferences of heterosexual men is a bad idea.  Here is an upcoming letter in the Archives of Sexual Behavior.  It is a response to an article by Voracek and Fisher (2006) who concluded that heterosexual men prefer more masculine-looking adult actresses compared to nude models, and that these women are often medically underweight.

Part of this letter has been addressed previously in the context of adult actresses with breast implants.  The letter also briefly addresses Playboy centerfolds, specifically that their weights are underreported.  Another reason why Playboy centerfolds are a poor choice for assessing heterosexual men’s optimal preferences is that the magazine’s long-standing Editor-in-Chief, Hugh Hefner, is a bisexual who has been selecting lots of masculinized centerfolds, half of whom, from the 1990s onward, have sported breast implants.

Pornographic actresses are a poor choice for assessing what men optimally prefer in women’s looks

2009; Epub (Electronic publication ahead of print); Pubmed link; pdf available at Springer’s site.

– Erik Holland

Voracek and Fisher (2006) attempted a supposedly more ecologically valid assessment of men’s preferences for women’s physical attractiveness by analyzing reported anthropometric measurements of top-ranked female porn stars/nude models.  This approach is problematic.

Voracek and Fisher assumed that the physical appearance of top-ranked porn stars/nude models reflects what men generally find most attractive in women.  However, most women will not pose nude, let alone participate in pornography.  Therefore, as a first approximation, highly ranked porn stars/nude models reflect the best looking among the minority of women who are willing to pose nude or indulge in pornographic acts, not the best looking women per se.

Voracek and Fisher noted substantial overrepresentation of women from the post-Soviet transitional countries of Eastern Europe in their sample, but did not address this observation.  Is this because Eastern European women look better than other European women or is it that, for a given amount of money, better looking women can be recruited from poorer nations that have women of similar international appeal as richer nations?  The latter scenario appears more plausible, and again cautions one that porn stars and nude models are not necessarily the best looking women.  Very good looking women will have more opportunities for mainstream success and are expected to preferably avoid nude modeling and porn work.

Porn stars willing to engage in more extreme sex acts have a broader repertoire of behaviors and will have more acting opportunities.  Porn stars that indulge in more extreme acts with a higher level of enthusiasm will tend to attain greater stardom than those who engage in these acts in a more perfunctory manner, thereby making it appear that they wouldn’t be doing it were it not for the money.  Therefore, it cannot be assumed that the success of a pornstar is solely a function of her looks.

Voracek and Fisher selected Private Media Group Inc. for their study.  Anal sex is common in the videos produced by this company (http://forum.private.com/viewtopic.php?t=2830), but anal sex is uncommon in the general heterosexual community (Laumann, Gagnon, Michael, & Michaels, 1994).  The company also features acts such as the consumption of semen that may be mixed with fecal mucus, oral-anal sex, and performing fellatio on a penis that has emerged from the anorectal region.  Therefore, there is the question of how representative of heterosexual men are men who regularly view the company’s pornographic materials.

Women inclined toward greater promiscuity or more promiscuous women tend to have higher testosterone levels (Cashdan, 1995; van Anders, Hamilton, & Watson, 2007) and a more masculine physical appearance than controls (Mikach & Bailey, 1999; Ostovich & Sabini, 2004).  Therefore, Voracek and Fisher’s conclusion that androgenousness cues are salient for attractiveness evaluation of moving bodies whereas curvaceousness cues are salient for posing bodies could very well be substituted by the hypothesis of feminine women being less willing to participate in hardcore pornography/disinhibited sex acts, not that less feminine moving forms are preferred by men.

Voracek and Fisher did not address the reliability of the models’ reported anthropometric measurements.  They listed the average reported BMI of the models as 18.4 ± 1.3, with a median of 18.3 and range of 15.2-22.5.   If this is accurate, then half of these models have body fat levels below the threshold of a medically healthy range (James & Francois, 1994).  Why would men’s optimal preferences substantially veer toward women with sub-optimal body fat levels?  Again, if the reported BMI of the porn stars is correct, then a large proportion of the top models do not reflect the optimal BMI preference of heterosexual men, which has been reported in the 19.5-20.5 range in Western societies (Swami & Tovee, 2007; Tovee & Cornelissen, 2001).  In a mid-1990s sample of 300 fashion models, the average BMI was 17.57 (Tovee, Mason, Emery, McCluskey, & Cohen-Tovee, 1997).  The current preference is for fashion models with a BMI around 16 (Johnson, 2007).  Does this mean that a substantial minority of top-ranked porn stars/nude models look as thin as the typical high-fashion model and that some look like they are starving?  Voracek and Fisher do not appear to have looked at the models they studied or they would have realized that their weights are generally underreported.  This applies to the authors’ previous study on Playboy centerfolds (Voracek & Fisher, 2002).  Centerfolds in the U.S. edition of Playboy magazine from 1953-2003 averaged a reported BMI of 18.1 ± 1.32 and 16% of them averaged a reported BMI less than 17 (Seifert, 2005).  One need only look at these models to realize that their weights are underreported (Szabo, 1996).

Voracek and Fisher ignored the possibility that the reported bust measurements are of limited utility because of a high frequency of breast implants. The very best Private porn stars appear in a video series titled, “The Private Life of [porn star name].”  At the time of this writing, there were 42 such stars.  It is easy to obtain their nude pictures without purchasing site memberships. I counted 18 (43%) with breast implants, ignoring all cases where breast implants were not unambiguously discernible.  I also looked up porn stars that had received top Adult Video News (AVN) awards, considered to be the Oscars of Porn, during 1995-2007, in the categories of best new starlet, female performer of the year, best actress and best supporting actress, totaling 54 women.  Again, ignoring all cases where breast implants were not clearly seen, I counted 27 (50%) with breast implants.  Although there is an element of subjectivity in discerning breast implants from pictures, readers can observe for themselves just how common breast implants are among these porn stars (http://www.femininebeauty.info/pornstars.zip).  Whereas Voracek and Fisher argued that androgenousness cues are salient for attractiveness evaluation, breast implants are not consistent with making moving bodies look firmer.  Rather, the high frequency of breast implants among top pornographic actresses suggests that pornographers are not very successful at recruiting women with a level of femininity that suffices to strongly please most heterosexual men. Small-breasted, well-ranked porn stars without breast implants presumably have compensatory characteristics, such as a more disinhibited screen presence.  Voracek and Fisher reported an unobtrusive measures design, but does this have to mean not even looking at the pictures of the models they analyzed? 

To conclude, whereas Voracek and Fisher are right about the limited ecological validity of most research on women’s physical attractiveness, porn stars and nude models appear to be a poor choice with respect to assessing heterosexual men’s optimal preferences, especially if the analysis relies on their reported anthropometric measurements.  On another note, Singh and Randall (2007) have recently published a study involving micro-fat grafting where it was shown that WHR is related to women’s attractiveness independently of BMI.

References

Cashdan, E. (1995). Hormones, sex, and status in women. Hormones and Behavior, 29, 354-366.

James, W. P., & Francois, P. J. (1994). The choice of cut-off point for distinguishing normal body weights from underweight or 'chronic energy deficiency' in adults. European Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 48(Suppl.3), S179-184.

Johnson, R. (2007, April). Walking a thin line. Vogue, 380-385, 403.

Laumann, E. O., Gagnon, J. H., Michael, R. T., & Michaels, S. (1994). Sexual techniques with opposite-gender partners. In The social organization of sexuality: sexual practices in the United States (pp. 107). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

Mikach, S. M., & Bailey, J. M. (1999). What distinguishes women with unusually high numbers of sex partners? Evolution and Human Behavior, 20, 141-150.

Ostovich, J. M., & Sabini, J. (2004). How are sociosexuality, sex drive, and lifetime number of sexual partners related? Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, 30, 1255-1266.

Seifert, T. (2005). Anthropomorphic characteristics of centerfold models: Trends towards slender figures over time. International Journal of Eating Disorders, 37, 271-274.

Singh, D., & Randall, P. K. (2007). Beauty is in the eye of the plastic surgeon: Waist-hip ratio (WHR) and women's attractiveness. Personality and Individual Differences, 43, 329-340.

Swami, V., & Tovee, M. J. (2007). Perceptions of female body weight and shape among indigenous and urban Europeans. Scandinavian Journal of Psychology, 48, 43-50.

Szabo, C. P. (1996). Playboy centrefolds and eating disorders--from male pleasure to female pathology? South African Medical Journal, 86, 838-839.

Tovee, M. J., & Cornelissen, P. L. (2001). Female and male perceptions of female physical attractiveness in front-view and profile. British Journal of Psychology, 92, 391-402.

Tovee, M. J., Mason, S. M., Emery, J. L., McCluskey, S. E., & Cohen-Tovee, E. M. (1997). Supermodels: Stick insects or hourglasses? Lancet, 350, 1474-1475.

van Anders, S. M., Hamilton, L. D., & Watson, N. V. (2007). Multiple partners are associated with higher testosterone in North American men and women. Hormones and Behavior, 51, 454-459.

Voracek, M., & Fisher, M. L. (2002). Shapely centrefolds? Temporal change in body measures: trend analysis. British Medical Journal, 325, 1447-1448.

Voracek, M., & Fisher, M. L. (2006). Success is all in the measures: Androgenousness, curvaceousness, and starring frequencies in adult media actresses. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 35, 297-304.

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Comments

Congratulations on your publication.

Have you seen the Ask Men Top 99 women of 2008 yet? I would be interested to see you do a post on it.

This list has very view substantially attractive and feminine women. Misa Campo and Hayden Panettiere were some notable exceptions. Unfortunately, "personality" and "accomplishments" are supposedly part of the ranking.

What is cool is that the website allows viewers to vote on the appropriateness of the ranking of the women. This allows a quantitative, though flawed, method of measuring the agreement of heterosexual men with the attractiveness of women promoted by the mainstream media.

- Gisele Bundchen was rated higher
- Allesandra Ambrosio's ranking was rated as appropriate
- Marissa Miller was rated slightly lower.

Overall, I don't see the voting decisively refuting or confirming your hypotheses. This suggests that if your hypotheses are correct, then people who are voting are (a) not typical heterosexual men, (b) fooled by posing tricks, or (c) voting based on personality/accomplishment (which is less plausible if we think only men are voting, but more plausible if we assume that women are voting also). I can't understand what's wrong with the voters who ranked Misa Campo down, for instance.

I think the comments are also very revealing. Even though the quantitative evidence doesn't show a dramatic dislike for masculinized women, the comments do. The number one women had lots of negative comments. There are now no comments on her entry, which suggests that they were taken down because of their negativity (maybe Askmen will realize that they fucked up with their choice).

Here are some of the comments on Marisa Miller:
"Jessica Simpson on roids."
"a man with fake boobs, ugly old hag face"

On Allesandra Ambrosio:
"Is it me, or does she look like a tranny?
Just imagine her with short hair and a flat chest."
"This is that one Victoria Secret model that was born a man but switched over. Can you all see it now? It's true. But he makes a hot sHE!"

HughRistik: The Ask Men issue has come up before. Ask Men claims over 10 million votes cast. This may be an exaggeration but the votes were likely over a million and so it is unlikely that the results reflect nonheterosexual men heavily skewing the results. I also don’t think that voting based on personality/accomplishment has played a major role but it could have.

The obvious reasons why there are so many masculinized women in this top list are that they select from a pool of celebrities that are deficient in feminine women to start with. So people are voting on the best among these women and voting on pictures that are usually not very clear about the shape of the women (fooled by posing tricks, which you have mentioned).

Some of the 2009 results are in accordance with my arguments such as Keeley Hazell ranked #4, but Eva Mendez ranked #1 by 10 million people is very inconsistent with my arguments. I suspect factors such as the Latino vote disproportionately favoring people of a similar ethnic background and Ask Men massaging the calculations to appear in agreement with similar publications or not antagonize its advertisers, which is consistent with Ask Men removing the negative comments for the #1 selection.

Some of the comments you posted are indeed revealing. Negative comments about these models’ looks along the lines of ugly, hag, bitch and so on are uninformative and can be dismissed as indicative of jealously. But when the negative comments point out masculinization and the woman is masculinized, then they are indicative of genuine dislike. And whereas people may trash the looks of a feminine woman, they will not call her masculine.

Erik,

Speaking of Keeley Hazel is she 100% natural? I mean did she have ANY plastic surgery whatsoever?

Because if she hasn't HOLY CRAP that is amazing! She has a nice body.

Erik,

Do you think some women are "air-brushed" or photoshopped to look more masculine?

I came across some photos of Keeley Hazel because I wanted to see if she has had any plastic surgery. I came across this photo:

Keeley Hazel Pictures, Images and Photos

Now her shoulders look very large and her backside very flat. I was wondering if this was just airbrushed to look like that because I can't honestly believe that she looks like this from the front:

Keeley Hazel Pictures, Images and Photos

keeley Pictures, Images and Photos

Keeley Hazel Pictures, Images and Photos

And then so flat and broad shouldered from the back? I just want to know your opinion on it. I do believe some women are air-brushed to look thinner or more masculinized. I am not saying that thinner=more masculine, but I am saying that it looks like they are being airbrushed to appear more masculinized.

I know your theory is that homosexuals dominate fashion, but my theory is that women like masculinization because naturally they are attracted to masculine men. So they like to see masculine women because it is what is attractive to them. That is why I believe they air-brush women on covers of magazines to be more masculinized: to appeal to women. Women are the largest consumers, and magazines are a hot prodcut. What do you think?

Women inclined toward greater promiscuity or more promiscuous women tend to have higher testosterone levels (Cashdan, 1995; van Anders, Hamilton, & Watson, 2007) and a more masculine physical appearance than controls (Mikach & Bailey, 1999; Ostovich & Sabini, 2004).

Erik, I never understood this. I am a very feminine woman with a very curvy body, large breasts, large buttocks, small face with low cheekbones, feminine forhead, etc. However, I have a very high sex drive. Now I don't believe in sex before marriage because I am a Christian and for other personal reasons (believe it is irresponsible,don't want to worry about pregnancy, stds, etc.) I've actually had some guys break up with me because of this. However, although I am abstinent physically I do think about sex a lot. I have a very high sex drive and am easily turned on. I would have to say that I am very interested in sex and trying new things etc. But I highly doubt I have high testosterone levels. Seriously, I have a classic hourglass shape,and soo many feminine features, if not all are feminine. So, what is my case? How come I am so sexual but I do not physically display characteristics of someone with high testosterone levels?

No, her buttocks really is that flat.

http://keeleyhazell.besteyecandy.com/

Not to mention how wide her shoulders are:

http://64.15.74.3/~majorpic/Uncle%20B/tila-tequila/KEELEY%20HAZEL%20NUDE%202.jpg

Her shoulders are just as wide any high fashion models...

Are you kidding, are you blonde, or don't you understand what promiscuous means ? You don't have sex, that's exactly what the author said: more feminine women are less promiscuous.

Erik, could you please tell me about the masculinity/femininity of this woman?

She is the author of the famous autobiographical sex blog "girl with a one track mind", her blog was made into a book and published in many countries around the world...

I am a young woman, and after reading her blog I thought... wow how can she enjoy being used for sex and discarded by so many random men?! and why does she have such a high sex drive?! but then i found some pictures of her on the net and the irony of the title "girl with a one track mind" all made sense....

The high testosterone looks of her face...

and another one...

It's just that I do not relate to her blog about seeking casual sex with a variety of men, her ONS's and fuck buddies... I would feel so used and hurt if that was me... I just can't seperate sex and love at all and I avoid casual sex at all costs. It is something I struggle with all the time, men lying to get me into bed and trying to use me, i feel nothing short of rage if a man lures me into bed and doesn't call again. I always try to wait as long as possible before sleeping with a guy... I feel more in love with a guy after sleeping with him, on the other hand, he is less likely to call after he gets what he wants...

Do you think women with high testosterone are normally a lot more promiscuous? like almost a nymphomaniac? Is it likely that she enjoys lots of casual sex and doesn't feel used, because she has high testosterone?

Godis-

You must be blind. Keeley looks exactly the same from the front as she does from the back. Broad shouldered, with a wide rib cage and a short neck. Quite masculine.

The only thing air brushed about her photos is her skin. In the "natural" swimsuit photo she appears much older and less attractive, and has many moles.

Alex,
That woman has a very masculine face.

Godis,
Regarding Keeley Hazel....she looks masculinized to me. But then, in Erik's case as long as they are North European looking and have fine facial features. Their masculinity level doesn't seem to be of much concern. He is still impressed! Have a look at some of the woman in the attractive women's category. Somce of them with short hair would approach the looks of boys. I can see that plain and clear!

Ahhh Godis...I think i might have a similar "issue" as you. I am not as promiscous/sexual as i would like to be...
I question if it has anything to do with me being feminine? But your confusing the two things i believe. Thinking and doing are two different things. Its good to have fantasies but you won't always act on them.

The Ask Men list is based on fame rather than aesthetics (same goes for the Maxim list,etc.). If it was based on aesthetics, then any of the girls in the Aubade calendar would blow the celebrity women and supermodels out of the water. Take this girl for instance. Her face isn't that great, but her body is much better than the body of any woman on the Ask Men list:

http://www.prisca-mannequin.com/

I agree that the more attractive women do not go into porn. However, the fact that much of the sex in Private's videos is "consumption of semen that may be mixed with fecal mucus, oral-anal sex, and performing fellatio on a penis that has emerged from the anorectal region" is not particular to that company, it is par for the course in porn today, presumably because there is a demand for it among men who buy porn. It seems a majority of porn consumers are less than fully heterosexual in your eyes.
For whatever reason anal sex is not as rare as it was even a decade ago among heterosexuals.

For males, the proportion who have had anal sex with a female increases from 4.6 percent at age 15 to 34 percent at ages 22–24; for females, the proportion who have had anal sex with a male increases from 2.4 percent at age 15 to 32 percent at age 22–24." One in three women admits to having had anal sex by age 24. By ages 25 to 44, the percentages rise to 40 for men and 35 for women. And that's not counting the 3.7 percent of men aged 15 to 44 who've had anal sex with other men.

The last time major national surveys asked about this practice, in the early 1990s, only 20 percent of men aged 20 to 39 said they'd had anal sex with a woman in the preceding 10 years. Only 26 percent of men aged 18 to 59 said they'd ever done so. In the first survey, the 10-year limit excluded half the sexual career of half the sample, but that isn't enough to explain a doubling in the percentage saying yes. In the second survey, according to the current report, the inclusion of men aged 46 to 59 might have diluted the sample with "cohorts that were less likely to have had anal sex." But that's the point: Newer cohorts are more likely to have tried it."

Ivan: People who watch hardcore pornography on a regular basis are not typical of the general population, especially heterosexuals interested in the anal sex-related activities described, and whereas a disproportionate number of these self-identified heterosexuals would have experienced homosexual attraction or behavior at some point, most will be exclusively heterosexual.

The anal sex statistics you have presented are incomplete. A closer examination will reveal that among heterosexuals who have indulged in anal sex, many have done it only once or twice, some indulge in it on an irregular basis and only a small proportion regularly indulges in it.

As to the increase from the early 1990s to the 2000s, the increase is likely related to increased normalization of deviant sexual practices by the medical establishment, the media and schools. As in many examples of drug abuse prevention education schemes, imparting knowledge of illegal drugs may enhance drug use (see the citations on this page), exposing more people to deviant sexual practices may prompt some people to try out some of the sexual practices that they are hearing about.

Erik,
"exposing more people to deviant sexual practices may prompt some people to try out some of the sexual practices that they are hearing about."

You must have a really boring sex life with predetermined rules! :D
Ok sorry that was a bad joke...

There is more porn available on "deviant" sexual behaviours these days such as bestiality, scat etc. I don't think "normal" people would ever think of indulging in those. For example i have been exposed to all forms of "deviant"/"disgusting" porn such as mentioned above and more but NEVER once have i even thought of indulging in them. Besides I don't think anal sex should be included in this category.
Anal sex has been prevalent since the "begining". Men have had to resort to anal sex because their wives were pregnant or having periods etc. In many cultures girls practise anal sex in order to preserve their virginity before marriage.
While we are on the topic of anal sex....Why is it that some men are "interested" in women's asses? A women's ass can be of more interest to some men than breasts or vagina! I don't know but whenever i encounter "straight" men who are into ass, it makes me wonder...

Man isn't it easy to categorize men who have indulged in anal sex as having had homosexual tendencies or having narrowly escaped homosexuality?
How convenient.

There is more gay and bi porn out there now. Will this in any way influence straight men to try out the "other side"?

Godis: Keeley’s breasts look natural. Her backside is not correspondingly prominent and she does have broad shoulders. In a number of her pictures, her shoulders are drawn back to make her shoulders look less broad, i.e., the effect is achieved by posing, not airbrushing.

Women don’t like masculinization in women’s looks; they prefer above average femininity in women’s looks, just like men. http://www.femininebeauty.info/aesthetics/gender

If you are around age 20 and have been abstaining from sex because of religious beliefs and other reasons, then it will only be natural that your mind is occupied by sexual desire on more occasions than it would be if you were having sex. If you had high sex drive then chances are you would have had found a way to reconcile premarital sex with religious beliefs or indulged in sex and asked for the Lord’s forgiveness, and the high libido would have made you lean more toward disregarding fear of pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections.

Even if we assume that you have high sex drive, testosterone or other hormone levels are not the only factors affecting sex drive. There are many other factors. The relationship I described is of a statistical nature. We find that Germans are lighter than Nigerians but we also find a few albino Nigerians who are lighter than most Germans. We find that Koreans are shorter, on average, compared to Swedes, but some Koreans are taller than most Swedes or some Swedes shorter than most Koreans. If libido increases with higher levels of testosterone, factor 1, factor 2, …, factor n, then you can have high libido with low testosterone levels if other factors are present at high levels.

Alex: The author of “girl with a one track mind” is clearly a masculinized woman. The relationship between testosterone and libido/promiscuity is of a statistical nature, as explained above. It is possible that the woman’s libido/promiscuity is not related to the increased masculinization but some other factor because libido is affected by many factors. In the case of an individual only careful examination will tell, but if we separate random women into more masculine and more feminine groups, then we could say with confidence that the greater promiscuity of the more masculine group is related to the greater masculinization.

Among promiscuous women, some feel guilty and used after sex, others don’t and some others feel like they are the ones who used men. In the case of this woman, I don’t know which of these applies.

Peter: The attractive women section of this site isn’t a feminine women section. Putting a few slightly masculinized women there who look attractive should not be an issue, and they have not been put there because of their specific European ethnicity. The ethnic background of the women chosen happens to be the same as that of the prime target audience of this site.

My reply to Ivan mentioned some people trying out some of the sexual practices they are hearing about. It does not follow that this is a reference to any people trying out any specific sexual practice they have been told about. So your references to bestiality, feces and homosexual behaviors are irrelevant. People will not voluntarily act inconsistently with their orientation/inclination.

Yes, anal sex has been prevalent since the beginning. So have incest, bestiality, child molestation and rape, all deviant practices and all socially unacceptable. I am not surprised that you don’t find sodomy deviant. Neither does a pedophile find child molestation deviant. But most heterosexuals regard sodomy as filthy, deviate, abominable conduct.

I don’t see where I have categorized men who have indulged in anal sex as “having had homosexual tendencies or having narrowly escaped homosexuality.” I don’t see why you bother trying to understand what I am saying.

Erik,
I actually liked the tone of this message at the begining but then it went downhill from there!

1. "I don’t see why you bother trying to understand what I am saying."
Because i like you! :D

2. If you want i can illustrate with pictures what i am trying to say. Actually when i have time i will do this. In your attractive women category ... in the somewhat masculinized section. The women are predominantly Nordic/North European looking. Why is that not surprising?
Many of these women have narrow manly faces. I don't find narrow faces in women particularly attractive. You mentioned in your comparison between a North European and South European (i forget the names). That some straight white males will prefer the fine featured (yet masculine) girl to the more feminine South European. What is this?
That girl looks like a proper Nordic male! If she had a boy cut, there would be little difficulty in distinguishing.

You talked about Pedomorphy and if North European men like pedomorphic traits or something along those lines. Have you ever thought about adressing masculinization preferences in Nordic males?
I mean to say why would some heterosexual pick that Nordic masculine girl? just because she has finer features? Yes i know you will point to the correlation of fine features and femininity. But what about the overall picture? But do fine features "justify" a boy's physique? which that Nordic girl has.
The reason i previously asked about your sexuality is because of this issue. There are other women with man faces that you have posted here which you said you found attractive. Doesn't that defeat the purpose of this site?
You have also mentioned somewhere that you find some masculine models attractive due to their fine features and describe it as a "work of art".
This leads me to assume that as long as they have manly faces (but feminine bodies in some cases) and are Nordic they are fair game for you? same with Nordic males?

If you want i can use pictures...and as you might have noticed i am not the only one. Other people have noticed the "man faces" too.

3. "I don’t see where I have categorized men who have indulged in anal sex as “having had homosexual tendencies or having narrowly escaped homosexuality.” I don’t see why you bother trying to understand what I am saying."

That was my knee jerk reaction to what you said here. Off course i should have not have spoken in absolutes. You mentioned a "disproportionate" number.
"especially heterosexuals interested in the anal sex-related activities described, and whereas a disproportionate number of these self-identified heterosexuals would have experienced homosexual attraction or behavior at some point, most will be exclusively heterosexual."

4. "Yes, anal sex has been prevalent since the beginning. So have incest, bestiality, child molestation and rape, all deviant practices and all socially unacceptable."

Why do you always have to go to the extreme and bring irrelevant issues? Please don't compare anal sex to those other things. Why should you always justify something by bringing up something worse? (Foul debating techniques)* stick to what is being talked about!

5. "I am not surprised that you don’t find sodomy deviant. Neither does a pedophile find child molestation deviant. But most heterosexuals regard sodomy as filthy, deviate, abominable conduct."

Yes i take it up my ass! If you have a problem with it....well....bite me! lol
I can't believe you have to go so low and compare sodomy with pedophilia. What is this? (Foul debating techniques)*
I attempted to educate you before but i will do it again and to any "ignorant" heterosexual that think that doing someone in the back door means getting "messy"
Erik, look up douching.....men and women do it. I do it!
Its basic cleaning up...just like a shower before. There is no mess involved so enough of this it is "filthy" argument. Same thing to mention on that "filthy" site lol
Abominable conduct? You sure read your Bible.
Deviate? well too many of those activities these days! i better not get into details.

Sorry Erik but your "perfect" world that exists in your head won't be coming to life anytime soon.
There is such a duality with you. I would expect someone like you to be more open to anal sex since your all over the porn world ;)
I went to a few links to the wesites here (oh this must make you happy...although i didn't subscribe lol). The sights on these websites...oh my!

Sometimes you come across as a really narrow minded and narcisisstic individual. Pity that you do really have some good points. Please change!? I recommend you try anal sex....trust me you will never think the same again. Good luck!
and tell me all about it :P

* my reference to foul debating techniques is...a taste of your own medicine.

Peter: Women from the northern parts of Europe tend to be overrepresented among high-end models and so it is here. There is nothing to be surprised about.

You may not like narrow faces, but this site is not about your preferences and it is not targeting you.

The reason why the less feminine but finer-featured woman in your example will be preferred by some men is because of the finer facial features, which should be obvious. Don’t waste my time by asking such questions.

I have never talked about pedomorphy as a beauty trait; it isn’t one.

I don’t think I am featuring women with “man faces” within the attractive women section of this site. Slight masculinization is more like it, and it doesn’t defeat the purpose of this site. Feminine beauty = beauty related to femininity + beauty not related to femininity. Both packages are not necessarily found in the same woman.

Your knee-jerk reaction bore no resemblance to what I wrote. Desist.

You think I am resorting to extremes? Sticking a penis – through an orifice meant for egesting feces – into someone’s fecal residue/mucus-coated rectum is not extreme? No foul debating here.

I did not compare sodomy to pedophilia. Just as pedophilia appears natural to a pedophile, sodomy appears natural to a sodomite. No foul debating here.

You must not educate “ignorant heterosexuals” about the “cleanliness” or merits of depraved, loathsome sex practices at this site. This is not the venue for it.

Erik,

I think my post got deleted or something so I'll say it again. I do not see the point in this sight is it to tell people that they are ugly??? I am 5'10 1/2 have a cups and am NATURALLY slim no matter even if I eat loads will only put on a few pounds. So I am already aware of my height and small boobs but seeing the fashion models makes me feel better and it is because of them people say that I look good and "sexy". After seeing my looks quite literally disected and that I look like crap that only a gay will like to say the least I am upset. Are you trying to make people like me look bad and make fat people the new beauties of society. In other words are you campaigning so that people like me (tall, flat chested, slim) are laughed at and called the fuglies of society. By making others feel better you are telling people like me we are are crap. I'm so sorry I don't conform to what you call beautiful but let me assure you I have no control over being tall etc. Not liking someone for something they have no control over sounds like descrimination. One final point on how I came across this sight... Some girl that I don't get on too well with saterted saying stuff that only gays will like you you have a masculine body and you're only pretty because of society. When we made up she told me she came across this site so this was the source of abuse. So please don't delete this and do reply I would love to hear you're justification

Sarah

Sarah: I didn’t delete your comment. Neither do I moderate comments. I don’t know what happened. Anyway, this website has nothing against women who are slim or women who have small breasts or women who are tall or women with all these features. I have featured examples of women that I like who happen to be slim or small-breasted or tall (and there are many such women that I will be adding to this website pending spare time; and these women are often classified in multiple categories such as being slender and small-breasted at the same time). I have also cited evidence that height has little to do with women’s attractiveness.

The issue of your own attractiveness depends on how it all fits together. You could be very appealing to straight men or you could be more appealing to nonheterosexual men, speaking of whom, one could find non-slim women with prominent breasts that these men will like more than men who are exclusively heterosexual. I don’t know how it all fits together in your case.

Erik,
Nice attempt at ignoring my points!

1. "Women from the northern parts of Europe tend to be overrepresented among high-end models and so it is here. There is nothing to be surprised about."

Who is talking about high end models??? I am talking about masculinized women in your attractive women category...They are disproportinately Nordic/North European looking.

2. "You may not like narrow faces, but this site is not about your preferences and it is not targeting you."

Now you are putting words in my mouth! I never said i may not like narrow faces. I said i don't PARTICULARY like narrow faces in WOMEN.
I prefer oval or roundish faces...such as Maria.
Also see note at end #

3. "The reason why the less feminine but finer-featured woman in your example will be preferred by some men is because of the finer facial features, which should be obvious. Don’t waste my time by asking such questions."

Why shouldn't i clarify something i am confused about? You totally ignored what i asked.

4. "I have never talked about pedomorphy as a beauty trait; it isn’t one."
I never said it was! But i do believe it is...
You talked about pedomorphy as a potential correlate of beauty.

5. "I don’t think I am featuring women with “man faces” within the attractive women section of this site. Slight masculinization is more like it, and it doesn’t defeat the purpose of this site. Feminine beauty = beauty related to femininity + beauty not related to femininity. Both packages are not necessarily found in the same woman."

Why don't you rename the site as Female beauty instead of Feminine beauty? It will be all excompassing and will be more "positive" to all women?

What can i assume about the sexuality of the man that finds these faces attractive?
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I am not alone in noticing these "man faces". Now off course when i say that i don't mean they are men. But when you see feminine beauties such as these below...the above mentioned don't stand a chance!

She is one of my favorites...I just wanna cuddle with her :)
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She is very womanly! she has a warm glow to her
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she is so cute!
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# I am going to do a little something you do! Compare! This is a dedication to my beloved Erik!
Who is more feminine looking?
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Impressive Huh?

This should also answer the Q why i keep coming back here. Firstly i am an admirer of beauty. Secondly as my latest picture shows...I come here to seek inspiration. I know how much you like these poses...mouth open delicately...exposing upper and lower incisors.
the caption for my picture is...
Oye! Who is that behind me? Erik? lol
that was a good laugh....you realize i am only joking ;)

Peter: This is another comment on why you need to stop commenting here.

Who is talking about high-end models? This website focuses on a lot of them and you are picking on these women. High-end models may be masculine or feminine. In any case, they are disproportionately Northern European.

I am not putting words in your mouth by saying “You may not like ...” Note “may” rather than “You do not like …” More importantly, I do not care what kind of faces you like.

Yes, there is nothing unreasonable about your asking me to clarify things that you do not understand, but I am not here to clarify these things for you. If you cannot understand straightforward arguments, then I should not be wasting my time clarifying them, especially given your troublesome behaviors.

You said, “I never said it was” in response to my saying that pedomorphy isn’t a correlate of beauty. But I never said that you said that it is so. So why deny something that I never ascribed to you? You are deliberately wasting my time. You also wrote that I talked about pedomorphy as a potential correlate of beauty, but this was the heading of an argument that clearly stated that it wasn’t, and hence the issue should not have been brought up at all. Again, you are wasting my time.

You can assume nothing about the sexuality of the men who find the not-so-feminine faces you picked attractive. The typical heterosexual man will find them attractive.

I also don’t like your jokes. This is not the venue for them and your comments are not welcome either. Your mouth is more protruding and chin weaker than the woman’s but this is because of ancestry and familial factors, the woman’s face being much more overall derived than yours. Why you want to compare yourself to a Northern European beats me. Just stop commenting here.

Peter,
If Erik asks you repeatedly to go away, why don't you? It's what I did. I still come back occasionally, then wonder why. (BTW, the fact that Emily is still on the face of the earth depresses the sh!t out of me.) You've got to realize that combating online ignorance is a massive waste of time. And I could understand giving it this much time and effort if the site was a legitimate threat, but is it? How many fans do you think are out there? Do you think Erik has his own hypermasculine army out to take over the world? I almost wet myself laughing at that image. But seriously, let's count up. Erik has: 1. Emily. 2. Cute but trashy, low rent models that he tries to pass of as "the be all and end all" in feminine beauty. 3. Half baked pseudoscientific method which he tries to defend, and only to end up having to backpedal and move the goalposts. All these things are more liabilities than strengths.
The site is private property, indeed. If a man wants to stand in his own living room and spout ridiculous, condescending bullsh!t, usually I can't wait to get out. Why keep coming back? Associate with minds that are worth your time, and Eik will associate with minds that are worth his.

Alex,

Folks here can sometimes hyperbolize somewhat when calling masculinized models trannies but that sex blogger really does look like a man in drag. She certainly looks like she had high prenatal testosterone (and high testosterone now) but part of it may be that she knows she's unlikely to get a good looking guy to commit to her. Also it's quite possible that the whole point of the promiscuity detailed in the blog was to launch a media career via the blog and the exploits may even be made up. My opinions of her promiscuity mirror yours and I'd be unable to stand living that but some very mentally and emotionally masculine women don't mind. I know a woman like that whose face and body (when she was young, she's now in her 40s) would be considered feminine even by Erik but she was also one of the most aggressive and dominating women I've ever met. Definitely high T.

Brownie locks: What are the examples of me backpedaling and moving the goalpost?

Erik, is there a non-Euorpean/Caucasian woman who you would consider beautiful?

Brownie locks,
Yes i keep wondering myself...why i keep coming back here. To be honest i do enjoy this site and have learned some valuable information. Yes there are many sites on the internet run by racists, homophobes, wierdos etc etc. I do visit some sometimes but not because i enjoy them BUT to get an idea of the amount of hate/prejudice that exists...just out of curiousity. I will take your suggestion into consideration :)

Erik,
I am going to adress your comments from the other page here as well.
I charge you as GUILTY of all that you accuse me of BUT obviously this isn't an "equal arena". You think of me as physically and mentally inferior for one and second this is your site so you can control/do/warn etc as you please.

1. "You have stooped to much lower levels than Emily. Nasty comparisons (such as used by Emily at her most frustrated) are not the standard by which the lowliness of an argument is judged. One could use good language and fill one’s arguments with digressions, non sequiturs, ad hominem, etc. and make the argument extremely foul, which is precisely what you have done."

I would MUCH rather use "good language" instead of resorting to nasty comparisons expecially when adressing ethnic groups/populations.

2. "You have the gall to state that all you did was post a picture of you smiling and this made Emily state that your skin reminds her of the color of feces. This is blatant falsehood."

Pity that you didn't understand what i was trying to say.
What i was trying to tell you is that AFTER Emily made the nasty comments, i could have easily spiraled down as well and made nasty comments about Nordics BUT instead i posted a picture of me smiling to "ease" the situation but in her subsequent posts she continued talking about...

3. "But your behavior is not that of walking in public while dressed flamboyantly, but of an obvious homosexual going around in public, loudly proclaiming all the homo-fun the breeders are missing out on, and offering men passing by his sexual services for a taste of homo-heaven."

Is this an example of ad hominem? What is this?
NO Erik, that statement doesn't describe me. But while we are at it...I am not promiscous, not into animals, children, feces, rape etc etc.

4. "Who is talking about high-end models? This website focuses on a lot of them and you are picking on these women. High-end models may be masculine or feminine. In any case, they are disproportionately Northern European."

I don't want to go back and post everything BUT what is this? I never mentioned High end fashion models. I talked about the masculine looking women in the attractive women section. Only one or two are high end models. Only one of them looks masculine. But all the women whose picture i posted are not high end models BUT look Nordic/North European. Which is what i asked you!!!!
You seem to like Nordic/North European faces even when they show masculinization in the form of narrow faces, well developed chins, thin lips, more prominent brow ridges etc.
When talking about the example of the light (masculine) European and dark (feminine) European what i was trying to convey was that European heterosexual men that prefer the lighter European must be attracted to masculinization because these features that i mentioned above....narrow faces, thin lips etc are most often found in North European women. There must be a correlation between North European men's preference Masculine faces. You are a good example of this.
So in other words isn't there a contradiction?

5. "And you don’t seem to understand what robusticity is about. You have posted your pictures from many angles except the front. You know why: your nose is far from fine. And look at your protruding mouth in side view, mainly because of the more ancestral/robust skeletal structure in the region. Parts of your face are not gracile. And parts of your face, such as the less developed chin, are not exactly an example of a finer feature but the weaker chin is partly a more ancestral condition that tends to go with a more protruding mouth (you have to consider your ancestry)."

Interesting since you have adressed my looks somewhat let me clarify some things.

Don't lie. A more ancestral combination would be weak chin, big mouth and sharp/massive gonial/jaws. But what do you see here? What does a combination of gracile jaws and more "feminine" mouth area illustarte?
If you think i have a weak chin or big mouth then there must be something wrong with your vision.
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Also the information that you mentioned about my mouth was interesting yet useless!
Tell me honestly when European women seek to augment their lips to either make them fuller or restore youth...do they have the following in mind? Notice that my lips are full but not broad on my face. I have a rose bud mouth. People say i have feminine lips and point out the cupid's bow shape on the top lip. Are my lips well within the normal variation in Europe? Sweden?...since they seem to have full lips often.
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Also tell me when Nordic women put eye makeup, mascara, or put fake eye lash extensions are they trying to emulate this?
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People have often asked me if i put mascara/eye liner and if i also put lip liner. Most of these comments come from North Europeans, what does one expect? This population has to use make up to enhance features i possess naturally.

As well contrary to what people might think...I do TAN! I am lighter in the winter and darker in the summer. Also i have rosy cheeks many times and i do blush. Sometimes my cheeks get red and people ask if i have make up on. Not sure if you can make out the difference in this pic?
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Also note my cheekbones ... feminine? Forehead nose region...feminine?
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You have made a comment about me not posting my frontal face pic and mentioned the reason i have not done this is because i have a huge nose (far from fine). Baiting much?
What do you expect...that in order to prove you wrong i will post one?

You really think that, that could be the only reason? could it be related to protecting my identity?
* look at the next post

To answer your question about Why i would compare myself to a North European? Because i can!
I can beat some of the man faces when it comes to beauty and femininity :)
I see you have mentioned something about the woman's face being overall much derived than mine? foul debating?
Where did i mention anything about my face being more or less derived than hers?
Also since when does overall face derivity come into the equation when talking about feminity? Overall derived face would also mean a more projecting nose and chin, thinner lips, narrower face etc. But then does that mean more feminine?
I asked you a simple Q about femininity...not how derived my face is or what my ancestry is.

In the end, the take home message is that i am a "feminine" looking male and some ethnic traits can actually result in one looking more feminine which i hope i illustrated?

Just Wondering: I have been attracted to lots of women from a variety of non-European ethnic backgrounds. Examples would be too numerous to mention here.

Peter: Why is it so difficult for you to understand that your comments are not welcome here and that you need to leave? You are wasting my time, contributing nothing of value and tying up the comments thread with useless, irrelevant issues. You need to stop commenting here.

You said you would rather use good language than Emily’s foul comparisons. The problem is that extremely foul arguments using good language are worse than less problematic arguments using foul language. This is one of the reasons why you need to leave. And Emily would never have used the foul comparison had it not been for your baiting. This is another reason why you need to leave.

I understand very well why you posted your picture, which Emily made negative comments on. Yes, you could have made bad remarks about Nordics but that is not your type. Your type resort to vile debating techniques of a different kind that I have enumerated elsewhere; techniques that are designed to frustrate your opponent and make them do something stupid, which you will then make an issue of. By hook or by crook you will not let your opponent win, and there is no room for this at this site, which is another reason why you must leave.

My analogy about the public behavior of a type of homosexual aptly describes your behavior at this site and is not any kind of ad hominem. It is telling that your response mentions, “I am not promiscous, not into animals, children, feces, rape etc etc.,” whereas none of these behaviors were described or alluded to in the analogy I made. Again, you are bringing in completely irrelevant charges and making it look like I am making these arguments. This is another reason why you need to stop commenting here.

You do not need to explicitly mention high-fashion models for me to make a comment about them. You must understand that this site makes an attempt to address high-end models. Many of the women posted in the attractive women section are high-end in their genre (glamour models) but not high-end as in comparable to top fashion models in the real world. These women will be disproportionately from the northern parts of Europe. This is the way it is.

None of either narrow faces, or well-developed chins, or thin lips, or prominent brow ridges by themselves are masculine, but masculinization does tend to narrow faces, makes the chin more eminent, the lips thinner and brow ridges more pronounced. This is why women who come from a narrower-faced ethny are not more masculine because their faces are narrower; whether they are more or less masculine needs to be determined by looking at multiple variables. And nothing can be inferred about the sexual orientation of men attracted to the faces of the women in the narrower-faced ethny because this preference does not pertain to masculinity-femininity. Similar statements can be made about other features such as lip thickness or chin development. I don’t want to be wasting my time on such issues, which have already been explained in some form or the other at this site. Stop commenting here.

You think that something is wrong with my vision if I am seeing a big mouth (I said more protruding mouth because of more ancestral bone structure) and weak chin in you? You fool, you must stop commenting here. Don’t challenge me on looks.

The following comparison should lay the matter to rest. The Northern European man chosen has below average masculinity (he is personally known to me) yet note that his mouth is retracted compared to yours, his chin better developed and his forehead more projecting and rounder. Your entire face is clearly much more ancestral. More ancestral does not require more ancestral on all counts. You don’t need to have a powerfully developed gonial region in order to have an ancestral jaw structure, which yours clearly is.

Northern European man vs. Peter the Indian

Again, I don’t understand why you wish to compare your features to those of Northern Europeans because there is no resemblance. You said because you can. Yes you can, but not here. And don’t delude yourself into thinking that lip augmentations or the application of mascara on the part of some Northern European women have anything to do with acquiring any part of your looks.

Regarding comments about how derived your face is compared to the woman you compared yourself to, this comment was necessary to explain the stupidity of your comparison. You attempted to describe as more feminine-looking some of your features that are properly described as more ancestral looking because the woman is any day more feminine than you. This is clearer in the comparison with the Northern European man because he, like you, has below average masculinity.

Now leave this site alone. This site is not about your looks, your comments are not welcome and you should have the courtesy to not waste our time with your unwanted comments.

Your remark about “sites on the internet run by racists, homophobes, wierdos etc etc.” is obviously directed toward me. You can save yourself the trouble of being offended by running away from these sites. At least avoid this one in the future.

Erik,

1. "Your remark about “sites on the internet run by racists, homophobes, wierdos etc etc.” is obviously directed toward me."

Why do you always think i am out to get you? No i was speaking generally and not referring to you.

2. "Your type resort to vile debating techniques of a different kind that I have enumerated elsewhere; techniques that are designed to frustrate your opponent and make them do something stupid, which you will then make an issue of. By hook or by crook you will not let your opponent win, and there is no room for this at this site, which is another reason why you must leave."

And what type of debating involves telling your "opponent" in nearly every message that he is annoying, a trouble maker, doesn't have the intelligence enough to understand the argument and indirectly referring to him when responding to other people in a negative context?
You are right Erik....I did bait Emily BUT i was only having fun as you could tell from the tone of the messages?
I am sorry Emily.
But saying that I can't understand why the burden of the blame is being put on my shoulders. I guess its just that i always think that people are responsible for their actions. One should learn self contol. Anyways Emily apologised recently (not to me) and i thanked her. So that is over.

3. Thank you for the comparison Erik :)
That helped me understand things better. I didn't realize that thing about the forehead. I thought it was a masculine trait to have a sloping forehead and a feminine trait to have a rounded and protuding forehead? nothing to do with facial derivity?

4. I am sorry, i didn't say that clearly...Yes i have a weaker chin but i do have a chin. I have seen people with non existant chins and was comparing mine with theirs i guess.

5. I don't have to compare my face to a North European because there is a resemblance? I never said my face resembled hers. You say Ethnic...I say feminine.

6. "And don’t delude yourself into thinking that lip augmentations or the application of mascara on the part of some Northern European women have anything to do with acquiring any part of your looks."

You are clearly mistaken! I have been told this many times.

7. Do i need to count how many times you have asked me to stop commenting here? Its at the end of every sentence! Do you really hate me that much? :(
Ok fine you win, your in control (I can imagine a smile appearing on your face). Good ... well that is all i want/wanted all along...people to be happy. Also i hope my pictures and comments can be useful to other people in understandig thier looks somewhat.
I wish you the best of Luck Erik. It was lots of fun interacting with you. Pity that you only saw me a certain way and i sometimes resorted to "foul methods" to get your attention. But then i am such a girl after all.
Don't think for once i hate or dislike you. I love you and Emily as well :)
All is forgiven....I think i am going to cry now....*sniff sniff*. Bye

"'And don’t delude yourself into thinking that lip augmentations or the application of mascara on the part of some Northern European women have anything to do with acquiring any part of your looks'.

You are clearly mistaken! I have been told this many times."

Erik I have known Nordic-type women who complain about their thin lips and see-through eyelashes when compared to Asians and Hispanics. Now there are many beautiful Nordic women but the ones who aren't try specifically to correct these features.

Hi Erik. Just popped back in. I'll take a few days, cobble together some of your quotes, and put them out on your site.

link | Submitted by Erik on Mon, 05/25/2009 - 01:21.

Just Wondering: I have been attracted to lots of women from a variety of non-European ethnic backgrounds. Examples would be too numerous to mention here.

After all the nasty comments directed at you by some people the reality/fact is you dont percieve northern europeans/europeans as the most beautifull in the world :-)

peter - you are beautiful and dont let some homophobic guy tell you otherwise.
erik - i think peter looks more feminine than that woman.
i think you took a wrong turn there - why are you talking about his features as ancestral? when the discussion is about whose features look more feminine?
you failed to convince me that the womans features are more feminine. how is a weaker chin and protuding mouth not feminine?
if that woman had a weaker chin and more protuding mouth then she would look more feminine.
why dont you admit that peter was right and that scared you and you kicked him out?
i think of all the posters here he is the most entertaining and truthful. none of his pictures look photoshopped or professional and he has no make up on but yet he looks feminine still...how many of your models can?
plus like you said you need to look at the whole picture and not isolate a few features.
i can understand that as a straight man with insecurities about sexuality you would feel uncomfortable about a feminine guy interacting with you but dont take it out on poor peter
moreover there is lots of junk going around here especially with this deranged emily girl who you keep under your belt. so why single out one person?
just admit he had an quote on quote affect on you.
i like your site by the way to some degree.
also i think you can find many many nordics with peters features but not pigmentation so your wrong
north europeans are not a special or seperate race. get over it man

Hello. Erik, don't ever let the stupidity of some people stop you from the work you're doing. I admire your patience in dealing with the attacks and poor arguments. I have learned so much from this website, and I'm sure even some of your detractors have, too.

The blonde girl's face pictured here looks ugly and masculine in the first two pics, but decent and somewhat feminine in the last two.

Peter - you have perfect, heart shaped lips. Not too big, not thin. Just kissable.

I also vote that you are better looking than the blonde girl pictured above, in any case - masculine or feminine.

Also - love the eyebrow threading, yaar.

PS: by "blonde girl" I was referring to the pix of Keeley Hazel (Skeezy).

Not a 10 by a long shot.

Has anyone anywhere compiled a list of the "homosexuals who dominate the fashion industry"? I know it's a stereotype, but has it been systematically verified?

"I admire your patience in dealing with the attacks and poor arguments."

Same here.

the truth is that women don't care what men like. they want to obey the fashion industry. then, after obeying, they say that they do it to please men. then most men, being weak-willed, pretend to like things like implants for example. it's called pluralistic ignorance. i've heard many times one man call another 'homo' because they did not have anal sex with their girlfriends. pornography has social-engineered us. this explains the implants, the piercings, the tatoos, the non-existant pubic hair and all other forms of ugliness. men will actually reject an 'unshaven' woman. as far as nude models, i don't think it's only about the money, it's a bout narcissism. and women, when given an opportunity to use their bodies to control men cannot resist the ensuing power-trip and become addicted to it.

Terry: Your comment does not make much sense. It is not that women do not care what men like; many do. Some just happen to end up misinformed.

I do not know if most men like breast implants. Some do, others don’t, some don’t care. I have never heard of any man calling another man a homosexual for refusing to have anal sex with his girlfriend. I do not believe that men will reject an unshaven women because of the influence of pornography. Western pornography often features shaved women because of the focus on the labia, but Japanese pornography usually features unshaven women (in their case many of the women have dark labia). In addition, piercings and tattoos only interest a subset of people.

Erik,
I am sorry i am going against your wishes to not post here again. I just wanted to request that you erase my photo (in reference to the comparison above). I suspect you might have saved other photos i posted here and in case you did, kindly erase them as well.
Many thanks

Erik, the reason why Japanese women are unshaven in porn doesn't have anything to do with the color of the labia. As a matter of fact, the labia cannot simply be shown, for Japanese Law forbids showing vaginas or penises in pornography. In Japanese porn, mainly addressed to Japanese men living in Japan, this parts are therefor censored (pixeled). It may be that you see the uncensored version in the United States, but we don't see them in Europe.

Markus: The age of the internet started years ago, and it is better in Japan. Uncensored Japanese pornography has been widely available to the Japanese, via the internet, for years. Where is the demand to see more of the labia unencumbered by pubic hair? How many are fans of blackened folds or lining?

"I admire your patience in dealing with the attacks and poor arguments"

Same here also!

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