your contridicting yourself
alot actualy
you put in atractive women
big reasted women that all have blonde hair
and who are you to say whats buetiful and whats not
like your saying that hevier and skinny women are ugly?
most of the women in this iste you referd as ugkly are buertiful women
adn the women you said were beutiful are whore with big boobs
youro bioulsy not a femeinest or else you wouldnt be saying these women are ugly and you have to look this way to buetiful
you fucking bitch
and pleasse email me back cunt
Ok im just refuring to every one you said looked liek a man
when they clearly dont you must have very low self estem to put down buetifukl people most likely becuase you are a fat fucking cunt with nothing better to do just becuase soem one has big reats doesnt mean they have had implants you wannabe whore
like seriously none of those women look like men and they are all very beutiful like i think you should put a picture of you up there so every one can puke
and your most liekly fat so your jelous of those girls for havuing amazing bodies
honeslty readsing all the stuff you put you seem like a jelous 13 year oidk girl
now go shove you inner beuty up your ass
p.s.
you have none other wise you wouldnt be concernd about how other ppl look
Anne: It helps to look assertive in some scenarios, but there is typically no need for assertive-looking women when it comes to a variety of modeling assignments, especially modeling swimsuits and lingerie, yet we observe masculinized women when it comes to high-fashion modeling and even lingerie modeling on the part of Victoria's Secret and others. This has nothing to do with any need for assertive-looking women in general; it simply reflects the domination of the top ranks of the fashion business by homosexual men.
I appreciate what you are saying but slightly masculine looking women appear alot more assertive.
Plus you have to look or be assertive in today's society.
I found your site to be very interesting. . . including the odd arguments you seem to have gathered. It's your site, and your personal opinion, so I won't argue :P.
Actually, the most amusing argument I've seen is the one further up the page with the comment about the exposed nipple being a turn-on, and if you don't think, then you're homosexual. . . . I would like to inform all men who think this way that I am straight, and found it revolting. If I want to see a bare flat chest exposing nipples. . . I'd remove my shirt and look in the mirror.
Actually, I can honestly say that I agree with most (if not all) of what you are saying. Throughout the day I get bombarded by these fashion models. Turn on the TV, there they are in their undergarments. Flip through a magazine, there they are nearly naked. Log on to a web site, there they are. . . well. . . naked. I take a look at them and I often ask myself, "How in the world can that possibly be beautiful."
I won't dive into the masculine/feminine argument. One thing that I will say is: the designers should at least try to highlight that person's natural beauty. It would certainly be more pleasing that the current practice of spackeling their faces to fill in cracks, then painting on it with rediculous amounts of makeup, and dressing them down to nearly nothing, bringing attention to their less attractive features (which I would have though to be counterproductive for the fashion world anyway).
I see these women, and find them to be the most unattractive women I've ever set eyes on. . . and the scary thing is that they look simply ugly with all of that makeup on, that I am afraid to see what they look like without it.
Then I see my girlfriend, who I can honestly say I see and the prettiest woman in the world. She's not one of those huge chested Playboy models, and yet she still has that femininity (much more than even the models previously mentioned) about her that absolutely takes my breath away.
There is one thing that I would like to see. I would like to call all men to step away from ogling these models, and take a real good look at the woman they're with. . . the real women. After all, there's something about her that drew you to her at first, something that, in your eyes, says "sexy."
Let's face it, the fashion industry is useless as far as it goes beyond anything other than desinging clothing, anyway. What's the need to have a fashion model wear as little as possible in the first place?
Well. . . . I'll probably draw enough fire upon myself as it is with my ramblings ;). . . .
hey!!! whom does gisele think she is fooling with all her claims!!! Having done innumerable surgeries to her boobs, nose and the whole of her body she claims to be born perfect. we just do not buy it!!! And just look at the 3rd picture. She looks positively scary and manly. almost makes me think she is a man!!! And her body is a rectangle shape. In a website a came accross her measurements as 35-22-36, almost a hourglass figure! But anyone with even one parcent of eyesight left can tell that she has a broad waist. Atleast 27 or 28. And gisele, even though all models are dumd, we mere mortals are not. So please dont think you can fool us
your views read like a jealous queen with some serious hang ups about their own body image..counselling recommended. Do us a favour and stick a picture of yourself on here and give us all a laugh.
S. Chase: My email address is mentioned on the email page (see top-right corner). It is surprising that you say that this site picks on the looks of ethnic women in detail when, at the time of this writing, most images in this entry feature white women and several pages within this site address white women only.
I wouldn’t be surprised if photographers and model agencies -- associated with the fashion world -- find the masculinized physique of Ms. Onyeche attractive, but the majority of the public prefers a feminine physique on a woman.
I have not compared Ms. Onyeche’s looks with white women, but with an average African-American woman, instead, and you can clearly see that the ratio of nose width -- at the level of the nostrils -- to face width is greater in Ms. Onyeche and hence less aesthetically acceptable within a West African context.
My argument is not that one can compare attractiveness across populations, but that one can have a detailed comparison of attractiveness within a population. Additionally, I have clearly stated that lack of attractiveness does not imply ugliness; most people have nothing wrong with their looks; they are just not among the highly attractive.
As to why not many people post here, this site is fairly new, some people prefer to email me their comments, and there is not a whole lot to post about since those who go through most pages of this site will typically find an answer to the questions they were prompted to ask after coming across this site, and those who agree with the contents of this site have no need to leave a comment.
U need to provide your email contact so that the details can be scanned and emailed to you.
As to whether deep down inside she knows if she is beautiful? That is not the issue, this is the first site in history that I have come across which picks down the looks of ethnic women in such a detailed manner so much that it becomes quite degrading. Yes these ladies place themselves in the public domain becuase that is what ambassadors do when they represent their country. I dont think that they place themselves outthere to be insulted in such a manner but trust me they know how to deal with it. Marielle knows that she is beautiful. She is an aspiring genetic scientist and she doesnt need to dismiss you as a nutcase becuase she is not the type of person so say or do such.She just like I couldnt believe that there was actually a website dedicated to this type of thing. I would have preferred not to know about this site believe me. Her physique you say in your opinion is unattractive, however, many photographers, make-up artists and model agencies have said the total opposite. The fact that you have a stereotypical profile of who you consider to be beautiful would make anyone think that you are a nut and possibly racist. This isnt because of the type of research that you have done but it is how you have brought it across. You have described having a broad nose as being unattractive. In other words all women entering beauty pageants which are high profile should be white (or as near to white as possible), with a flat bum, 24 inch waistline, blond hair, blue or green eyes and whatever else that many pure blacks, asians and indians do not have. Anyway You are entitled you your opinion. Thank goodness that beauty pageants are not organised by people who have such blatant views about the people of varying ethnicities otherwise they would be bombarded with law-suits based on discrimination. Once again anyone who reads your site would think that if they dont fall under this profile that they are ugly when in fact they are not! Your beauty description favors one race that in itself is racist and I can not wait to gain the opportunity to observe you defending your points in an interacial international setting. I will keep my eyes open for you since I do travel a great deal. Anyhow I have indulged in taking up too much of your time. I have noticed that not many people post here. Why do you think that is?
S. Chase: I do not need to interview the women in order to assess their looks; their pictures are enough. And, once again, I am not researching these women. If they display themselves in public -- in the context of modeling or beauty pageants -- I can address their looks without contacting them or seeking their permission to address their looks.
To prove that you are the copyright owner of the image, I want you to prepare some documents, sign them, scan them and email them to me. Here is what I need. A statement that you are the copyright owner of the image and do not approve of its publication at this site, and you state the former under penalty of perjury. A statement showing how the publication of the image does not fall under United states Code Title 17, Section 107. And, your contact information (mailing address, phone and email), along with details of the organization you represent.
I don’t see how my portrayal of Miss Barbados -- Marielle Chetham Onyeche -- is very cruel. I just showed her picture, and it is easy to see that she is too masculinized and unattractive to be participating in a high profile beauty contest. For instance, consider the front and profile views of the average African-American woman.
The source of the two images above is:
Quote:
Porter JP, Olson KL. Anthropometric facial analysis of the African American woman. Arch Facial Plast Surg. 2001 Jul-Sep;3(3):191-7.
It can be clearly seen that Miss Barbados -- Marielle Chetham Onyeche -- is both less attractive and more masculine than the average African-American woman. Now, an African-American/West African women who participates in a high profile beauty pageant should look better than the average African-American woman, but Marielle Chetham Onyeche looks worse. Therefore, it is fair to point out that she is undeserving of her title as far as physical attractiveness is concerned.
Also consider some of the range of nostril shapes in African-American women:
The source of the image above is:
Quote:
Porter JP, Olson KL. Analysis of the African American female nose. Plast Reconstr Surg. 2003 Feb;111(2):620-6; discussion 627-8.
Whereas the nostrils shown at the bottom are of a heavily Europeanized African-American woman, it is once again seen that Miss Barbados -- Marielle Chetham Onyeche -- has far from aesthetically pleasing nostrils. I could address Ms. Onyeche’s physique, too, and I don’t think you would like it, but it is hardly necessary to make the point that if physical attractiveness were the main criterion in contemporary beauty contests, then Miss Onyeche would not be participating in one.
If you cannot understand why fashion models are more masculine than the glamour models that I have shown, then please read about how sex hormones sculpt physical features, and as this link shows, masculinity-femininity is not a matter of someone’s opinion, but a matter of objective analysis. Therefore, I do not need to ask a masculinized woman whether she thinks that her looks are masculinized; evaluating physical appearance is enough. This site is fairly new, and once it is better known, I will get around to lecturing audiences if necessary.
You are right that given the norms in beauty pageants, you have to select contestants that will maximize your chances of winning, as I have pointed in the entry, but the objectionable parts of the norms are Western and comprise of political correctness and the influence of gay fashion designers, something that you will not be able to change, but I will see what I can do about them.
On the other hand, you can forget about teaching your contestants to defend their looks. Masculinized and unattractive looks cannot be passed off as attractive to the majority of humans. You say that Ms. Onyeche has been stressed by her inclusion on this page, but if she knew that she was attractive, she would merely dismiss me as a nutcase, but she is upset because deep down she knows her true level of attractiveness. I have nothing against her and wish her good success in life, but the range of the highly attractive is very narrow and most people are outside this range and do not belong as participants in high profile beauty contests.
OK I finally understand. Please excuse my ignorance to your research. You stated in you last post that you are concerned with the circumstances that have led to MASCULINE, UNATTRACTIVE women participating in high profile beaut pageants. Isnt that a biased statment? Obviously you favor a particular look. Help me to understand please becuase this experience will only enable me to teach this years contestants to be able to defend their looks! I really have to say that the judging criteria for most international pageants are based on what may get a delegate into the top ten. The most consistent delegate in each catergory obviously has an advantage.
Not different names, just different people posting on the same pc so dont be condescending ok!! I sent about 6 people to look at this page and they are all very disturbed by your posts. I am still trying to understand your objective. I am sure that you do not mean to be cruel! I dont think that intelligent people will go out of their way to hurt people that they do not know.
If your research is not biased why haven't you interviewed some of the women that you have posted on page? Yes i indeed own that photo. Tell me how to provide u with the info, The photo was not taken in the USA, it is not the property of any domain in the US. Obviously you are in the USA we are in Barbados.
This page & Photo of Miss Barbados has caused her unneccessary stress. I believe your potrayal of her to be very cruel. I am not interested in whether nobody says anything. I dont care who you pick on or portray. I am simply asking you to remove her photo. You are not portraying her in a positive light. You did not contact the local franchise holder to seek permission to use her photo in such an extensive article. Many websites who wanted to post her photo all contacted me for permission and these are international websites which feature pageants and they followed protocol and you didnt which was rude and ethically wrong. If I am incorrect let me know isnt it the job of the researcher to allow the people he is researching know of his or her research?
Maybe fat was the wrong word to use to describe your description of feminine beauty. They are pleasantly plump. I think every one is beautiful on this site all of the women so I cant understand your portrayal of some of the most beautiful women in the world as masculine looking. That is like saying you look like a man go and have plastic surgery!!
Why dont you broaden your research and interview some of the very ladies that you say look masculine and hear what they have to say. Futhermore I would like you to visit the Caribbean and conduct some lectures based on your research. I have taken what you have said into context about who sets the guidelines about what is looked for in a beauty queen etc and for that i thank u since u have made some interesting points about your research.
Ms. S. Chase, Malawi, Janet Banes: Quit posting under different names. This entry is hardly some research work; the research has been cited elsewhere. I do not need anyone’s permission to address the looks of beauty pageant contestants. The women shown may have functioned as ambassadors of their countries, but I am not interested in their contributions and am not pointing out deficits in their ambassadorial role. I am interested in how these women look. I don’t see how putting up the pictures of these women exposes them to ridicule. Like I have stated, there is nothing wrong with their looks. The problem is with the circumstances that have lead to a large number of unattractive and masculinized women participating in a high profile beauty contest.
If you are the copyright owner of Miss Barbados World’s picture above, then provide me proof of it and I will see what I can do about it. The images above have been shown under the fair use provision of U.S. (Title 17, Section 107) and international law, and chances are that you would be wasting your time in legally trying to have the image removed.
If you believe that the attractive women that I have shown are fat, then something is wrong with you. As to whether my opinion is very biased, I have cited research that people overwhelmingly prefer feminine looks in women. In other words, my opinion is no more biased than that of the majority of humans. And, I look like a normal man and am normal in other aspects.
I don’t see where I have portrayed these women as thoughtless beings. Most of these women should be well aware of how attractive they are, and should not find their inclusion here surprising. Lastly, although I have included some information on improving looks -- for interested women -- I am not saying that women should try to change their looks; this site is about aesthetics, and is interested in the looks of top-ranked models and beauty pageant contestants.
You say that this site is dedicated to motivating people not to use masculinzed skinny women in advertisting and to promote feminine beauty?? Dont you mean what you consider to be feminine beauty. I would love to know what you looked like. Are you a man that looks like a woman? Are you a woman who looked like a man and got a sex change? Or are you a man who happens to be rich and landed a gorgeous wife if not for your money she wouldnt even look in your direction?? I am just curious as to the typs of person conducts such bogus research. I would hate to think that you have a phd in anything.
Why are you portraying these women as though they are thoughtless individuals subjecting the contestants of Miss World to uneasiness and redicule. That is not a nice thing to do at all. Each person is beautiful in their own right. You appear to favor soft features, plumpness and curves. Well thank god the fashion industry is not made up of individuals who are your sort or we would all be obese. I dont see why people should change the way they are just for a pschotic person like u.
After checking your page on who you considered to be beautiful women. I realise that they all look like bloody porn stars, are fat with huge buts, breast that almost touch their navel strings, stress marks & stuff not saying that these women are not beautiful but your opinion is very very biased and i too want the photo of MIss Malawi removed!!!!!!!!
Did you seeek permission to conduct research using these contestants? You have stated quite clearly that you have conducted extensive research but your findings only target the Miss World beauty pageant and only in a brief sentence did you say that you looked at the Miss Germany pageant. You make postings about a pageant that you looked at??? Regardless of whether the photos you used are in the public domain did you make clear your research intentions to the Miss World Organisation or to the Licence holders that these countries represent. I think that your research is biased, unethical, unproven and a drastic call for attention. These young ladies or ambassadors of their countries respectively and you try to downplay their contribution by targeting their external features which i find really disgusting. It is one thing to make your statments that justify what you are trying to say put posting these young ladies photos while exposing them to redicule becuase of your negative "research on the feminine speci" is another matter. I absolutely will not tolerate it. Kindly remove the photo of Miss Barbados World or I will seek legal action.
Virgil: If you don’t care about the contents, why even bother with any definitions? Unlike you, I don’t like arguing, but I have to defend this site. There is nothing subjective about masculinity-femininity, and I have cited enough anthropological data in this regard. Though there is some subjectivity when it comes to beauty, a lot about it is objective; I have cited literature on objective correlates such as averageness, fluctuating asymmetry and femininity; there is more to it, which I will cite eventually.
You talk about a universal ideal. What is this? I have certainly not implied any such thing, and have clearly talked about the differences between homosexual and heterosexual men, and have not implied that all men within a specific group share the same exact preferences. What is relevant here is the central tendency in the population, and the central tendency is clearly to prefer feminine-looking women.
Regarding the photos, get some exclusively heterosexual men to go through this site and see how many do not prefer the feminine women a lot more than the fashion models, including the "sexy" fashion models shown.
For you to say that heterosexual men will win over homosexuals because of their greater numbers and buying power when it comes to influencing women about what looks they should have is absurd in light of the evidence that the fashion business is dominated by homosexual men. Few women go through publications where heterosexual men publish images of women they like, as in Maxim or more hardcore publications (which cannot become mainstream), and I have already talked about negative changes in Playboy magazine. Women are bound to be more influenced by what female celebrities wear (top-notch high fashion) and what they see in the form of dominant fashion imagery. Therefore, the gay influence is particularly strong. As to why some women get breast implants, these women generally have small breasts and most do it due to a feeling of inadequacy, which in many cases stems more from an innate aesthetic sense rather than societal influence. Besides, only some women get breast implants; most don’t. Additionally, whereas high-fashion models tend to be flat-chested, breast implants are not unusual among fashion supermodels; see the "sexy" fashion models page.
You attempt to give an example of the stronger influence of heterosexual male preference in determining desired body shape in women by invoking a scenario where heterosexual men overwhelmingly prefer obese women but gay fashion designers prefer skinny women. Well, if heterosexual men generally refuse to touch non-obese women, then most heterosexual women would attempt to become obese, but your example is a hypothetical scenario and is not seen in the real world.
The fact is that there are some women who are almost clueless about aesthetics and there are others who have a strong intrinsic aesthetic sense. The former are the ones who are most susceptible to being swayed by the dominant aesthetic imagery they see around them (high fashion imagery) and can be helped somewhat by this site, whereas the latter are the least likely to be swayed by such imagery. But, as I have mentioned previously, this site strongly focuses on aesthetics. Most humans aesthetically appreciate feminine-looking women, and if I can help it, you will see the ascendancy of feminine and attractive women among the ranks of models and beauty pageant contestants.
You mention airbrushing to get rid of unsightly bulges. Well, this is something that only high-profile publications would bother with if their models have unnecessary fat in some places. The sources where I am getting pictures of attractive women from do not bother with this stuff; they are able to find some decent-looking models.
To my knowledge no beauty-related profession is dominated by heterosexual men. Heterosexual men are interested in seeing beautiful women, but are rarely into professions such as hairstyling, fashion designing, make-up or other cosmetology stuff; among the men who take up such jobs, most are homosexual. Additionally, most professions have nothing to do with selecting female models.
Update; posted May, 2007: The explanation of the masculinization trend among Playboy centerfolds above is very inadequate. Based on information on Hugh Hefner that I came across later, a better explanation was provided here, and the ultimate explanation provided here.
Well, I don't necessarily "care" about its contents, per se... I just find fault with your definition -- which I do believe is subjective -- and your theory as to how beauty standards have become less closely correlated to your preferences. In addition to that, I enjoy arguing. If your photos had been voted on by a randomly picked group of heterosexual males, or picked by scientists as representative of some kind of universal ideal, I'd give the former more credibility. The latter is pure speculation. In your theoretical tug of war over women's image between male homosexuals and male heterosexuals, heterosexual men would have to win due to their higher numbers, greater buying power, greater magnitude of control over the media, and greater power to affect what straight women do. Say that the vast majority of straight men decide to express a primary interest, both in reality and fantasy, in women over 200 lbs, and the fashion industry holds steady with their "ideal" of a svelte woman. What are women of average weight interested in finding a date going to do... continue to try to slim down to please fashion designers/approximate fashion models and fight over the few men that desire them, or drive to the nearest Krispy Kreme immediately, in order to stay in the running? Why do so many women get fake breasts -- which are definitely not included in the "ideal" fashion model image? Because a desire to physically please the straight men around them trumps input from other groups, for the most part. And airbrushing isn't just about blemishes... it's about flaws in general. You can also use it to take away unsightly bulges that get in the way of that curvaceous, ultra feminine silhouette. So you can't name one beauty-related profession, or one profession that concerns the images of women and is controlled by heterosexual males that's dominated by feminine women, in any Western country?
your contridicting yourself
alot actualy
you put in atractive women
big reasted women that all have blonde hair
and who are you to say whats buetiful and whats not
like your saying that hevier and skinny women are ugly?
most of the women in this iste you referd as ugkly are buertiful women
adn the women you said were beutiful are whore with big boobs
youro bioulsy not a femeinest or else you wouldnt be saying these women are ugly and you have to look this way to buetiful
you fucking bitch
and pleasse email me back cunt
and actualy most fashion designers are staight
Ok im just refuring to every one you said looked liek a man
when they clearly dont you must have very low self estem to put down buetifukl people most likely becuase you are a fat fucking cunt with nothing better to do just becuase soem one has big reats doesnt mean they have had implants you wannabe whore
like seriously none of those women look like men and they are all very beutiful like i think you should put a picture of you up there so every one can puke
and your most liekly fat so your jelous of those girls for havuing amazing bodies
honeslty readsing all the stuff you put you seem like a jelous 13 year oidk girl
now go shove you inner beuty up your ass
p.s.
you have none other wise you wouldnt be concernd about how other ppl look
Monica has my vote for both body and beauty. What a delicious woman.
send sex and your imaje for me .kiss you
Anne: It helps to look assertive in some scenarios, but there is typically no need for assertive-looking women when it comes to a variety of modeling assignments, especially modeling swimsuits and lingerie, yet we observe masculinized women when it comes to high-fashion modeling and even lingerie modeling on the part of Victoria's Secret and others. This has nothing to do with any need for assertive-looking women in general; it simply reflects the domination of the top ranks of the fashion business by homosexual men.
elle's body projects a more assertive type of woman.
I appreciate what you are saying but slightly masculine looking women appear alot more assertive.
Plus you have to look or be assertive in today's society.
I found your site to be very interesting. . . including the odd arguments you seem to have gathered. It's your site, and your personal opinion, so I won't argue :P.
Actually, the most amusing argument I've seen is the one further up the page with the comment about the exposed nipple being a turn-on, and if you don't think, then you're homosexual. . . . I would like to inform all men who think this way that I am straight, and found it revolting. If I want to see a bare flat chest exposing nipples. . . I'd remove my shirt and look in the mirror.
Actually, I can honestly say that I agree with most (if not all) of what you are saying. Throughout the day I get bombarded by these fashion models. Turn on the TV, there they are in their undergarments. Flip through a magazine, there they are nearly naked. Log on to a web site, there they are. . . well. . . naked. I take a look at them and I often ask myself, "How in the world can that possibly be beautiful."
I won't dive into the masculine/feminine argument. One thing that I will say is: the designers should at least try to highlight that person's natural beauty. It would certainly be more pleasing that the current practice of spackeling their faces to fill in cracks, then painting on it with rediculous amounts of makeup, and dressing them down to nearly nothing, bringing attention to their less attractive features (which I would have though to be counterproductive for the fashion world anyway).
I see these women, and find them to be the most unattractive women I've ever set eyes on. . . and the scary thing is that they look simply ugly with all of that makeup on, that I am afraid to see what they look like without it.
Then I see my girlfriend, who I can honestly say I see and the prettiest woman in the world. She's not one of those huge chested Playboy models, and yet she still has that femininity (much more than even the models previously mentioned) about her that absolutely takes my breath away.
There is one thing that I would like to see. I would like to call all men to step away from ogling these models, and take a real good look at the woman they're with. . . the real women. After all, there's something about her that drew you to her at first, something that, in your eyes, says "sexy."
Let's face it, the fashion industry is useless as far as it goes beyond anything other than desinging clothing, anyway. What's the need to have a fashion model wear as little as possible in the first place?
Well. . . . I'll probably draw enough fire upon myself as it is with my ramblings ;). . . .
Neat site ;).
hey!!! whom does gisele think she is fooling with all her claims!!! Having done innumerable surgeries to her boobs, nose and the whole of her body she claims to be born perfect. we just do not buy it!!! And just look at the 3rd picture. She looks positively scary and manly. almost makes me think she is a man!!! And her body is a rectangle shape. In a website a came accross her measurements as 35-22-36, almost a hourglass figure! But anyone with even one parcent of eyesight left can tell that she has a broad waist. Atleast 27 or 28. And gisele, even though all models are dumd, we mere mortals are not. So please dont think you can fool us
From these two I would give "the body" name for Elle.
I think the optimal solution would be between these two. Maybe 2/3 Elle and 1/3 Monicue.
your views read like a jealous queen with some serious hang ups about their own body image..counselling recommended. Do us a favour and stick a picture of yourself on here and give us all a laugh.
S. Chase: My email address is mentioned on the email page (see top-right corner). It is surprising that you say that this site picks on the looks of ethnic women in detail when, at the time of this writing, most images in this entry feature white women and several pages within this site address white women only.
I wouldn’t be surprised if photographers and model agencies -- associated with the fashion world -- find the masculinized physique of Ms. Onyeche attractive, but the majority of the public prefers a feminine physique on a woman.
I have not compared Ms. Onyeche’s looks with white women, but with an average African-American woman, instead, and you can clearly see that the ratio of nose width -- at the level of the nostrils -- to face width is greater in Ms. Onyeche and hence less aesthetically acceptable within a West African context.
My argument is not that one can compare attractiveness across populations, but that one can have a detailed comparison of attractiveness within a population. Additionally, I have clearly stated that lack of attractiveness does not imply ugliness; most people have nothing wrong with their looks; they are just not among the highly attractive.
As to why not many people post here, this site is fairly new, some people prefer to email me their comments, and there is not a whole lot to post about since those who go through most pages of this site will typically find an answer to the questions they were prompted to ask after coming across this site, and those who agree with the contents of this site have no need to leave a comment.
U need to provide your email contact so that the details can be scanned and emailed to you.
As to whether deep down inside she knows if she is beautiful? That is not the issue, this is the first site in history that I have come across which picks down the looks of ethnic women in such a detailed manner so much that it becomes quite degrading. Yes these ladies place themselves in the public domain becuase that is what ambassadors do when they represent their country. I dont think that they place themselves outthere to be insulted in such a manner but trust me they know how to deal with it. Marielle knows that she is beautiful. She is an aspiring genetic scientist and she doesnt need to dismiss you as a nutcase becuase she is not the type of person so say or do such.She just like I couldnt believe that there was actually a website dedicated to this type of thing. I would have preferred not to know about this site believe me. Her physique you say in your opinion is unattractive, however, many photographers, make-up artists and model agencies have said the total opposite. The fact that you have a stereotypical profile of who you consider to be beautiful would make anyone think that you are a nut and possibly racist. This isnt because of the type of research that you have done but it is how you have brought it across. You have described having a broad nose as being unattractive. In other words all women entering beauty pageants which are high profile should be white (or as near to white as possible), with a flat bum, 24 inch waistline, blond hair, blue or green eyes and whatever else that many pure blacks, asians and indians do not have. Anyway You are entitled you your opinion. Thank goodness that beauty pageants are not organised by people who have such blatant views about the people of varying ethnicities otherwise they would be bombarded with law-suits based on discrimination. Once again anyone who reads your site would think that if they dont fall under this profile that they are ugly when in fact they are not! Your beauty description favors one race that in itself is racist and I can not wait to gain the opportunity to observe you defending your points in an interacial international setting. I will keep my eyes open for you since I do travel a great deal. Anyhow I have indulged in taking up too much of your time. I have noticed that not many people post here. Why do you think that is?
S. Chase: I do not need to interview the women in order to assess their looks; their pictures are enough. And, once again, I am not researching these women. If they display themselves in public -- in the context of modeling or beauty pageants -- I can address their looks without contacting them or seeking their permission to address their looks.
To prove that you are the copyright owner of the image, I want you to prepare some documents, sign them, scan them and email them to me. Here is what I need. A statement that you are the copyright owner of the image and do not approve of its publication at this site, and you state the former under penalty of perjury. A statement showing how the publication of the image does not fall under United states Code Title 17, Section 107. And, your contact information (mailing address, phone and email), along with details of the organization you represent.
I don’t see how my portrayal of Miss Barbados -- Marielle Chetham Onyeche -- is very cruel. I just showed her picture, and it is easy to see that she is too masculinized and unattractive to be participating in a high profile beauty contest. For instance, consider the front and profile views of the average African-American woman.
The source of the two images above is:
Quote:
It can be clearly seen that Miss Barbados -- Marielle Chetham Onyeche -- is both less attractive and more masculine than the average African-American woman. Now, an African-American/West African women who participates in a high profile beauty pageant should look better than the average African-American woman, but Marielle Chetham Onyeche looks worse. Therefore, it is fair to point out that she is undeserving of her title as far as physical attractiveness is concerned.
Also consider some of the range of nostril shapes in African-American women:
The source of the image above is:
Quote:
Whereas the nostrils shown at the bottom are of a heavily Europeanized African-American woman, it is once again seen that Miss Barbados -- Marielle Chetham Onyeche -- has far from aesthetically pleasing nostrils. I could address Ms. Onyeche’s physique, too, and I don’t think you would like it, but it is hardly necessary to make the point that if physical attractiveness were the main criterion in contemporary beauty contests, then Miss Onyeche would not be participating in one.
If you cannot understand why fashion models are more masculine than the glamour models that I have shown, then please read about how sex hormones sculpt physical features, and as this link shows, masculinity-femininity is not a matter of someone’s opinion, but a matter of objective analysis. Therefore, I do not need to ask a masculinized woman whether she thinks that her looks are masculinized; evaluating physical appearance is enough. This site is fairly new, and once it is better known, I will get around to lecturing audiences if necessary.
You are right that given the norms in beauty pageants, you have to select contestants that will maximize your chances of winning, as I have pointed in the entry, but the objectionable parts of the norms are Western and comprise of political correctness and the influence of gay fashion designers, something that you will not be able to change, but I will see what I can do about them.
On the other hand, you can forget about teaching your contestants to defend their looks. Masculinized and unattractive looks cannot be passed off as attractive to the majority of humans. You say that Ms. Onyeche has been stressed by her inclusion on this page, but if she knew that she was attractive, she would merely dismiss me as a nutcase, but she is upset because deep down she knows her true level of attractiveness. I have nothing against her and wish her good success in life, but the range of the highly attractive is very narrow and most people are outside this range and do not belong as participants in high profile beauty contests.
OK I finally understand. Please excuse my ignorance to your research. You stated in you last post that you are concerned with the circumstances that have led to MASCULINE, UNATTRACTIVE women participating in high profile beaut pageants. Isnt that a biased statment? Obviously you favor a particular look. Help me to understand please becuase this experience will only enable me to teach this years contestants to be able to defend their looks! I really have to say that the judging criteria for most international pageants are based on what may get a delegate into the top ten. The most consistent delegate in each catergory obviously has an advantage.
Not different names, just different people posting on the same pc so dont be condescending ok!! I sent about 6 people to look at this page and they are all very disturbed by your posts. I am still trying to understand your objective. I am sure that you do not mean to be cruel! I dont think that intelligent people will go out of their way to hurt people that they do not know.
If your research is not biased why haven't you interviewed some of the women that you have posted on page? Yes i indeed own that photo. Tell me how to provide u with the info, The photo was not taken in the USA, it is not the property of any domain in the US. Obviously you are in the USA we are in Barbados.
This page & Photo of Miss Barbados has caused her unneccessary stress. I believe your potrayal of her to be very cruel. I am not interested in whether nobody says anything. I dont care who you pick on or portray. I am simply asking you to remove her photo. You are not portraying her in a positive light. You did not contact the local franchise holder to seek permission to use her photo in such an extensive article. Many websites who wanted to post her photo all contacted me for permission and these are international websites which feature pageants and they followed protocol and you didnt which was rude and ethically wrong. If I am incorrect let me know isnt it the job of the researcher to allow the people he is researching know of his or her research?
Maybe fat was the wrong word to use to describe your description of feminine beauty. They are pleasantly plump. I think every one is beautiful on this site all of the women so I cant understand your portrayal of some of the most beautiful women in the world as masculine looking. That is like saying you look like a man go and have plastic surgery!!
Why dont you broaden your research and interview some of the very ladies that you say look masculine and hear what they have to say. Futhermore I would like you to visit the Caribbean and conduct some lectures based on your research. I have taken what you have said into context about who sets the guidelines about what is looked for in a beauty queen etc and for that i thank u since u have made some interesting points about your research.
Ms. S. Chase, Malawi, Janet Banes: Quit posting under different names. This entry is hardly some research work; the research has been cited elsewhere. I do not need anyone’s permission to address the looks of beauty pageant contestants. The women shown may have functioned as ambassadors of their countries, but I am not interested in their contributions and am not pointing out deficits in their ambassadorial role. I am interested in how these women look. I don’t see how putting up the pictures of these women exposes them to ridicule. Like I have stated, there is nothing wrong with their looks. The problem is with the circumstances that have lead to a large number of unattractive and masculinized women participating in a high profile beauty contest.
If you are the copyright owner of Miss Barbados World’s picture above, then provide me proof of it and I will see what I can do about it. The images above have been shown under the fair use provision of U.S. (Title 17, Section 107) and international law, and chances are that you would be wasting your time in legally trying to have the image removed.
If you believe that the attractive women that I have shown are fat, then something is wrong with you. As to whether my opinion is very biased, I have cited research that people overwhelmingly prefer feminine looks in women. In other words, my opinion is no more biased than that of the majority of humans. And, I look like a normal man and am normal in other aspects.
I don’t see where I have portrayed these women as thoughtless beings. Most of these women should be well aware of how attractive they are, and should not find their inclusion here surprising. Lastly, although I have included some information on improving looks -- for interested women -- I am not saying that women should try to change their looks; this site is about aesthetics, and is interested in the looks of top-ranked models and beauty pageant contestants.
Monica, no doubt; the broad shoulders and too-narrow hips do make Elle look like a man.... :/
You say that this site is dedicated to motivating people not to use masculinzed skinny women in advertisting and to promote feminine beauty?? Dont you mean what you consider to be feminine beauty. I would love to know what you looked like. Are you a man that looks like a woman? Are you a woman who looked like a man and got a sex change? Or are you a man who happens to be rich and landed a gorgeous wife if not for your money she wouldnt even look in your direction?? I am just curious as to the typs of person conducts such bogus research. I would hate to think that you have a phd in anything.
Why are you portraying these women as though they are thoughtless individuals subjecting the contestants of Miss World to uneasiness and redicule. That is not a nice thing to do at all. Each person is beautiful in their own right. You appear to favor soft features, plumpness and curves. Well thank god the fashion industry is not made up of individuals who are your sort or we would all be obese. I dont see why people should change the way they are just for a pschotic person like u.
After checking your page on who you considered to be beautiful women. I realise that they all look like bloody porn stars, are fat with huge buts, breast that almost touch their navel strings, stress marks & stuff not saying that these women are not beautiful but your opinion is very very biased and i too want the photo of MIss Malawi removed!!!!!!!!
Did you seeek permission to conduct research using these contestants? You have stated quite clearly that you have conducted extensive research but your findings only target the Miss World beauty pageant and only in a brief sentence did you say that you looked at the Miss Germany pageant. You make postings about a pageant that you looked at??? Regardless of whether the photos you used are in the public domain did you make clear your research intentions to the Miss World Organisation or to the Licence holders that these countries represent. I think that your research is biased, unethical, unproven and a drastic call for attention. These young ladies or ambassadors of their countries respectively and you try to downplay their contribution by targeting their external features which i find really disgusting. It is one thing to make your statments that justify what you are trying to say put posting these young ladies photos while exposing them to redicule becuase of your negative "research on the feminine speci" is another matter. I absolutely will not tolerate it. Kindly remove the photo of Miss Barbados World or I will seek legal action.
We are laughing at you.
Virgil: If you don’t care about the contents, why even bother with any definitions? Unlike you, I don’t like arguing, but I have to defend this site. There is nothing subjective about masculinity-femininity, and I have cited enough anthropological data in this regard. Though there is some subjectivity when it comes to beauty, a lot about it is objective; I have cited literature on objective correlates such as averageness, fluctuating asymmetry and femininity; there is more to it, which I will cite eventually.
You talk about a universal ideal. What is this? I have certainly not implied any such thing, and have clearly talked about the differences between homosexual and heterosexual men, and have not implied that all men within a specific group share the same exact preferences. What is relevant here is the central tendency in the population, and the central tendency is clearly to prefer feminine-looking women.
Regarding the photos, get some exclusively heterosexual men to go through this site and see how many do not prefer the feminine women a lot more than the fashion models, including the "sexy" fashion models shown.
For you to say that heterosexual men will win over homosexuals because of their greater numbers and buying power when it comes to influencing women about what looks they should have is absurd in light of the evidence that the fashion business is dominated by homosexual men. Few women go through publications where heterosexual men publish images of women they like, as in Maxim or more hardcore publications (which cannot become mainstream), and I have already talked about negative changes in Playboy magazine. Women are bound to be more influenced by what female celebrities wear (top-notch high fashion) and what they see in the form of dominant fashion imagery. Therefore, the gay influence is particularly strong. As to why some women get breast implants, these women generally have small breasts and most do it due to a feeling of inadequacy, which in many cases stems more from an innate aesthetic sense rather than societal influence. Besides, only some women get breast implants; most don’t. Additionally, whereas high-fashion models tend to be flat-chested, breast implants are not unusual among fashion supermodels; see the "sexy" fashion models page.
You attempt to give an example of the stronger influence of heterosexual male preference in determining desired body shape in women by invoking a scenario where heterosexual men overwhelmingly prefer obese women but gay fashion designers prefer skinny women. Well, if heterosexual men generally refuse to touch non-obese women, then most heterosexual women would attempt to become obese, but your example is a hypothetical scenario and is not seen in the real world.
The fact is that there are some women who are almost clueless about aesthetics and there are others who have a strong intrinsic aesthetic sense. The former are the ones who are most susceptible to being swayed by the dominant aesthetic imagery they see around them (high fashion imagery) and can be helped somewhat by this site, whereas the latter are the least likely to be swayed by such imagery. But, as I have mentioned previously, this site strongly focuses on aesthetics. Most humans aesthetically appreciate feminine-looking women, and if I can help it, you will see the ascendancy of feminine and attractive women among the ranks of models and beauty pageant contestants.
You mention airbrushing to get rid of unsightly bulges. Well, this is something that only high-profile publications would bother with if their models have unnecessary fat in some places. The sources where I am getting pictures of attractive women from do not bother with this stuff; they are able to find some decent-looking models.
To my knowledge no beauty-related profession is dominated by heterosexual men. Heterosexual men are interested in seeing beautiful women, but are rarely into professions such as hairstyling, fashion designing, make-up or other cosmetology stuff; among the men who take up such jobs, most are homosexual. Additionally, most professions have nothing to do with selecting female models.
Update; posted May, 2007: The explanation of the masculinization trend among Playboy centerfolds above is very inadequate. Based on information on Hugh Hefner that I came across later, a better explanation was provided here, and the ultimate explanation provided here.
Well, I don't necessarily "care" about its contents, per se... I just find fault with your definition -- which I do believe is subjective -- and your theory as to how beauty standards have become less closely correlated to your preferences. In addition to that, I enjoy arguing. If your photos had been voted on by a randomly picked group of heterosexual males, or picked by scientists as representative of some kind of universal ideal, I'd give the former more credibility. The latter is pure speculation. In your theoretical tug of war over women's image between male homosexuals and male heterosexuals, heterosexual men would have to win due to their higher numbers, greater buying power, greater magnitude of control over the media, and greater power to affect what straight women do. Say that the vast majority of straight men decide to express a primary interest, both in reality and fantasy, in women over 200 lbs, and the fashion industry holds steady with their "ideal" of a svelte woman. What are women of average weight interested in finding a date going to do... continue to try to slim down to please fashion designers/approximate fashion models and fight over the few men that desire them, or drive to the nearest Krispy Kreme immediately, in order to stay in the running? Why do so many women get fake breasts -- which are definitely not included in the "ideal" fashion model image? Because a desire to physically please the straight men around them trumps input from other groups, for the most part. And airbrushing isn't just about blemishes... it's about flaws in general. You can also use it to take away unsightly bulges that get in the way of that curvaceous, ultra feminine silhouette. So you can't name one beauty-related profession, or one profession that concerns the images of women and is controlled by heterosexual males that's dominated by feminine women, in any Western country?
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