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More on Hugh Hefner, founder of Playboy magazine

This is a follow-up on Hugh Hefner, founder of Playboy magazine.  Recently, I came across additional information that sheds light on why too many Playboy centerfolds in recent years have been masculinized women.

Hefner has admitted to “experimenting with bisexuality.”  This lends credibility to Jill Spaulding’s claim that Hefner likes to watch gay pornography while having sex with this girfriends.

Here are some pictures of the woman Hefner married in 1989, Kimberley Conrad:

Kimberley Conrad Hefner Kimberley Conrad Hefner Kimberley Conrad Hefner

Note the masculine face of Kimberley Conrad.  Someone in Hefner’s position surely was not restricted to masculinized women for a potential wife.  

Playboy magazine currently pays $25,000 to centerfold models (Playmates) and over $100,000 (not sure of the exact amount) to Playmate of the Year.  These amounts are massive compared to what the typical nude model gets, which would at best be a few hundred dollars per hour.  Photographers of nude women for men’s publications disproportionately recruit women from Eastern Europe because it is the only region where attractive nude models with international appeal can be recruited for cheap, thanks to the poverty there.  For instance, Domai, a website featuring artistic nudity, typically pays photographers $400 for a photo shoot of a nude model comprising of 70-150 pictures, and the [most likely Eastern European] nude model obviously earns only a part of this money.

Playboy Enterprises Inc. obviously has a lot of funds and enough of a high profile to pay $25,000 to a nude centerfold, and given the magazine’s potential to bring mainstream fame to a woman who appears nude in Playboy, Playboy magazine is in a position to attract the best-looking women that are willing to pose nude.  Yet, we get women like the following centerfolds in the magazine:

Krista Kelly Christina Marie Leardini Natalia Sokolova

Krista Kelly, Christina Marie Leardini, Natalia Sokolova

Anna Nicole Smith Elke Jeinsen Shae Marks

Anna Nicole Smith, Elke Jeinsen, Shae Marks

Shauna Sand Stephanie Glasson Jacqueline Sheen

Shauna Sand, Stephanie Glasson, Jacqueline Sheen

Colleen Marie Dalene Kurtis Vanessa Hoelsher

Colleen Marie, Dalene Kurtis, Vanessa Hoelsher

Kerri Kendall Cara Michelle Victoria Alynette Fuller

Kerri Kendall, Cara Michelle, Victoria Alynette Fuller

Victoria Silvstedt Divini Rae Deborah Driggs

Victoria Silvstedt, Divini Rae, Deborah Driggs

All the centerfolds shown immediately above are taken from the 1990s to present, and constitute only a few illustrative examples.  There are plenty of other masculinized Playmates, whose level of masculinization will surprise numerous people if Playboy magazine showed clear pictures of them, i.e., no airbrushing or blurring.  There has been a trend of increasing masculinization among Playmates since the inception of the magazine (1953).

Just contrast the Playmates shown above with the following women, all taken from the attractive women section of this site.

Lindsey Marshal

Now we can figure out the most likely reason behind the masculinization trend among Playboy centerfolds.  Hugh Hefner, the ultimate decision maker regarding who gets to be a Playmate, appears to be a bisexual and likes masculinized women.  When he founded the magazine, the feminine female form was in the limelight, and Hefner could not have gone against it while he was trying to establish the magazine.  In addition, the silicon gel breast implant was not available then, which would be required to add pseudo-femininity to the often naturally small breasts of insufficiently feminine nude centerfolds.  Indeed, breast implants have been common among Playmates in recent years. 

When Playboy magazine was established, it had no competitors, and was quickly able to attain widespread recognition.  When the competition came, it was in the form of magazines such as Penthouse and Hustler, both focusing on genitals, which they probably had to in order to compete with Playboy by offering something that Playboy didn’t, which in turn made these magazines less respectable in mainstream society and limited the number of attractive women willing to pose nude in them.  With the advent of the internet, a huge number of websites featuring nudity came into existence, and this has made it very difficult for a particular website to attain the recognition of Playboy magazine.  Therefore, resting on Playboy’s widespread recognition -- as well as resorting to posing tricks, women with breast implants and airbrushing -- Hefner has been able to get away with recruiting a greater proportion of masculinized nude models over the years.  Whereas the magazine has lost circulation to the tune of millions, it still sells millions of copies, and Christie Hefner, Hugh Hefner’s daughter, who happens to be the CEO of Playboy Enterprises Inc., has saved Playboy from further decline by expanding Playboy Enterprises to include a TV network, video productions, etc.

Interestingly, Hefner has been responsible for both establishing a notorious/famous publication and then ruining it by increasingly bringing the centerfolds in line with his preference for masculinized women and also because in numerous cases he has undoubtedly been obliged to feature some women as centerfolds in exchange for having sex with him, and few of these women are expected to be attractive because attractive women would be the least likely to have sex with an old man in exchange for being made a Playmate.  This is unfortunate from the perspective of seeing feminine beauty in the limelight.  Whereas this website is not particularly interested in bringing the feminine nude form into the limelight -- the choice of mostly nude models for various illustrative purposes, including showcasing attracting women, has to do with few reasonable alternatives at present -- if there is one high-profile group/organization/publication capable of bringing the attractive nude female form, i.e., a feminine form as far as most people are concerned, to the limelight, then Playboy magazine is the most capable, but Hefner has ruined it.

Christie Hefner would be best advised to ensure that after Hugh Hefner passes away, the person who makes the final decision about who gets to be a Playmate happens to be a lifetime-exclusive heterosexual, preferably with some artistic skills and an eye for women.  This person could easily increase the magazine’s circulation by the hundreds of thousands if not millions while doing an excellent job at bringing feminine beauty to the limelight.




What is your opinion on Hugh's three current girlfriends and their relative masculinity/feminity? These women are featured in a program on the E! Entertainment Network called "The Girls Next Door" which I have been unfortunate to watch a couple of times...a guilty diversion I'll admit.

I looked up their measurements on Wikepedia which may or may not have accurate information but here goes:

Holly 36-23-36
Kendra 34-24-32
Bridget 34-25-36

Naturally, they are all at least C cups and probably all have implants. The point is, Hugh's sleeping mates are undoubtedly a good source of information on how his preferences in women run and whether he does prefer a more masculine partner and whether the increasing masculinization of women in Playboy is related.

If you can obtain good photos of these women, I would appreciate your opinion.

What you are trying to say through this site, with atypical coyness, is that you don't like gays. Why be so indirect?

Sandy: The reported measurements of Hefner’s girlfriends are not useful since one cannot be sure whether they are accurate and it is also the case that both Holly and Kendra have large breast implants (not sure about Bridget WHERE cid= '; his wife Kimberley also had large breast implants when he married her. None of these women are feminine; some pictures: Bridget Marquardt, Kendra Wilkinson and Holly Madison. Holly may be the most feminine of the bunch, but in an interview she said that she wasn’t exactly Hefner’s physical type when she came across him.

John: Why would someone who dislikes gays express his dislike in a time consuming and very indirect manner?


I agree that Holly is the most feminine, based on her physique at least. Kendra appears to have small hips and a boyish build, minus the large implants.

I would hope that if people could not agree on anything else on this site, that they would at least acknowledge that large breast implants coupled with a small frame, which seems to be "someone's" idea of beauty and sexiness, is completely NOT attractive, as it is unnatural and not proportional. I am not completely against breast implants, but I think that they should fit with someone's body and not be large breasts just for the sake of large breasts. Most men that I know look at the whole person/body and are not necessarily into big for the sake of big...HA...although some undoubtedly are.

By the way, I am trying to have my own pseudonym on here and Sandy seems a popular name to pick, so for now am Sandy-one.

John: This is about non-heterosexual men using their power—like brand recognition or designer status—to impose ridiculous standards of feminine beauty.

If you didn't find at least some of the above Playboy models to be inappropriately butch, then you'll never understand this site.

Okay, I revise my opinion slightly. Erik Holland isn't just a raving homophobe- in fact I was wrong, while he plainly dislikes and doesn't understand gays, that's not his only purpose. I even concede that he is trying to promote his own idea of feminine beauty. Normally, I would say that someone who thinks that Rebecca Romijn looks like a "male transvestite" was living in wilful self-deception, but I now see exactly what Erik is on about. This site completely misunderstands the fact that perceptions of beauty evolve with time and is trying to promote the kind of beauty that was fashionable in 1930.

Erik, by the way, what do you think of the fact that women like Adriana Lima, Veronica Varekova, Alessandra Ambrosio, Marisa Miller, Rebecca Romijn are frequently featured at or near the top of "sexiest" and "most desirable" women lists published by the likes of FHM, Maxim and, all strongly heterosexual-male dominated publications? Also what do you think of the "feminine beauty" of the likes of Jessica Alba, Scarlett Johansson and Petra Nemcova?

John, Erik isn't promoting his own idea of beauty. Though you try to deny it, the contents of this site are BACKED UP BY SCIENTIFIC STUDIES, and Erik's idea of feminine beauty is what most people find attractive. Those celebrities you mentioned get the titles "The Sexiest" or "The Most Desirable" not mainly because of how they look but because of their personality, popularity, talent perhaps, and also because they have photos wherein they wear skimpy clothes and do sexy poses. Besides, those photos are already edited by computer softwares. They also employ posing tricks to look more feminine. You really should go through all the pages of this site before leaving your comments.

John: Quit joking. Ad hominems do not refute arguments. Your comment does not belong in this entry. You have made assertions without backing them up. Examples: something about gays within this site is a misunderstanding, the perception of beauty has evolved with time, etc. There is plenty of data within this site relating above average femininity in women to good fertility and fecundity, i.e., a preference for above average femininity in women is expected to be a long-term stable central tendency in the heterosexual male population. 20th century model trends have already been explained elsewhere, which you have not even attempted to refute. And no, the most feminine models were not found in the 1930s, but more around the mid-twentieth century.

The high ranking of masculinized models in magazines or websites catering to the general heterosexual male population has also been explained earlier. For instance, selects about 200 or so famous young women -- which, thanks to the gay domination of the fashion business, comprise of models that are typically masculinized and other celebrities that are rarely examples of feminine beauty -- and then asks its readers to vote on them. Hence, the top-ranked ones would often be masculinized women. Many of the voting men are also unaware of posing tricks, airbrushing or how these women compare to feminine and attractive women.

If you wish to understand what it is that most people prefer, you need to look at controlled laboratory studies, where it is clear that the general public strongly and overwhelmingly prefers above average femininity in the looks of women. In these studies, the participants are shown pictures of women ranging from feminine to masculine and asked to pick what they like. There is no such analog in the real world, where the highest ranking models are typically masculinized and few examples of feminine beauty occupy the limelight.

I addressed Jessica Alba in a comment elsewhere and don’t wish to repeat it. I neither like nor dislike the looks of Scarlett Johansson, but Petra Nemcova looks good to me.

What people fail to understand is how profoundly socialized ideals can alter their entire perceptual process. Do you think maimed, disabled, tortured, disfigured women are sexy? You would have if you lived in China not too long ago. The misogynistic ideal back then was for women's feet to be bound (read: broken and crushed, over and over again, for years, beginning in childhood). The new misogynistic ideal is for women to look like men.

Women are afraid to say anything about this (if they even notice it at all!), because they're rightly aware of the overall problem of how defining what is acceptable for women to look like is inherently misogynistic. The problem is that they then overlook this horrific culturally sanctioned debasement of femininity to their own detriment (but to the gain of perhaps 2% of women--virilized ones).

Part of the origin of the problem is the emphasis on thinness, which is better approximated by tall people on TV (as television illusively adds weight). Tall women tend to be virilized, as height is mediated by androgens (Erik has disagreed with me on this, but it's true), so the masculinity-skewed dimorphisms other than height tend to come hand-in-hand--all due to the original desire to merely approximate the average proportion that is distorted on television. How this disgusting trend in misogyny then began to subtley take over as the ideal is subject for debate.

I like what Erik is doing, although I have a problem with some of the misogyny he himself promotes on the site. Promoting pornography in any context is disturbing and degrading to women. Ironically, they themselves are generally more masculinized on average, and also use previously discussed feminizing camera/aesthetic modifications as models do to compensate for this deficit. However, they still provide a striking contrast to the exceptionally masculinized amazonian beasts.

I don't think Erik hates gay men, I think gay men hate women.

If Erik suffers from any ism, it's probably a little bit of sexism but a whole lot of racism. Even as a white woman, I am disturbed by the obvious exclusion of darker-skinned women in the creepy "attractive women" collection.

Kimberly: If there is one thing you learn from this site, you need to revise your notion of profoundly socialized ideals altering entire perceptual processes. For instance, notwithstanding the heavy promotion of masculinized women by the fashion industry, controlled laboratory studies have shown people to strongly and overwhelmingly prefer above average femininity in the looks of women. Similarly, it is unlikely that the situation in China was as drastic as you describe it. Many people would have found foot binding unpalatable, but were not able to do anything about this. Almost certainly analogously, for a long time many people have been railing against the skinniness of high-fashion models and a few voices also pointing out their masculinization, but what have these individuals achieved? Hardly anything.

The masculinization of models or women in the limelight does not represent misogyny but the direct or indirect aesthetic preferences of male homosexual fashion designers, and in the case of Playboy magazine the aesthetic preferences of a bisexual man with a preference for masculinized women. Quit using the term “culturally sanctioned debasement of femininity.” Most humans have not sanctioned it.

Most people prefer slimness, not skinniness, and the emphasis on the latter among high-fashion models is explained by the necessity of making them approximate the looks of boys in their early adolescence, not the issue of the camera adding weight, which would be a viable possibility if high-fashion models looked skinny in real life but normal on camera, but these models look skinny or camera.

Once again, controlling for ancestry, whereas taller women will be less feminine on average, it is an easy matter to come across tall and feminine women, and I have shown plenty within this site. Within an ethnic group, most of the variation in height is within the sexes and only a minority between them. Therefore, a woman could be tall without it resulting from masculinization. The circumstances leading to the increased prevalence of masculinized women among models have been extensively addressed, and this entry is part of this discussion; start here for a summary.

I am not promoting pornography. Please read the reason for the heavy reliance on nude models, the vast majority of whom in the attractive women section are not porn stars. Speaking of female porn stars catering to heterosexual men, there is no irony in their being disproportionately masculinized since women inclined toward promiscuity tend to be more masculine, on average.

I have not espoused any male supremacist viewpoints here and hence do not accuse me of even a little bit of sexism. You accuse me of misogyny yet use the term “masculinized amazonian beasts” to describe masculinized women models! The absence of non-white women in the attractive women section has nothing to do with racism, but with reasons explained on the FAQ page.

hello eric i was just looking at the playboy playmates from the yesteryears. is it possible to put in eleanor bradley from 1959? she seems to have a very curvy body as do many of the other playmates fo that era. her (and some others) although have somewhat masculine faces. however it would be interesting to see what an ideal feminine physique would be. i am a female and im not using you to post up pictures for any gratification (as being able to view those pictures on playboy require one to be a member). im just curious to see what really makes a feminine body.


Please use a pseudonym other than “anon.” Eleanor Bradley isn’t the best feminine example from the 1950s, but others like Sally Todd and Ellen Stratton had looks that were good examples of femininity. Go through this site and you will find numerous illustrations of feminine looks.

does eleanor's body not look feminine to you? disregarding the face of course. im merely asking about physique rather than overall looks.


It is very interesting to see photos of Playboy Playmates from the 50's and 60's. One comment I have that is more positive for our era is that while playmates have become more masculinized, less curvaceous, etc. etc., they have overall become more fit and toned looking -- a deparature from their counterparts of old. To me at least, a toned, fit body is part of the beauty package in today's world.

Even my 80+ year old mother noted recently that glamour girls of the 40's and 50's had great legs but often soft and even flabby arms and abdominal areas. Now, the emphasis has switched to sleek toned muscles, and while I realize overly built muscles are not necessarily attractive and masculine even, certainly an out-of-shape appearance is similarly unattractive. Perhaps "some" of the trend towards increased thinness was as a result on this emphasis on physical fitness...although obviously not all.

On another note, I was very intrigued with your blog entry regarding curvaceousness, especially in terms of how important height is to the equation. My own stats put me at about 4.4 because I am short, while a 5'10" model with my hip/bust measurements and a waist size 1" smaller even comes out at 4.1 -- quite a distinct difference. I had more thought of curvaceous in terms of waist and hip ratios, not factoring in the visual impact of height.

Nicole: Eleanor’s body is in the normal to feminine range.

Sandy: Regular exercise was uncommon in the 1950s, and a number of glamour models in Playboy magazine and elsewhere had poor muscle tone, but some of them had good muscle tone even though they were not slender -- e.g., Audrey Daston (Playmate, March 1959).

So, I said something derogatory about the looks of androgynous women who get paid more money than I'll ever hope to make for merely looking that way. That sexist statement doesn't absolve you of YOUR sexism/racism. FAQ me all you want, baby, you add masculinized women to the attractive women section every day--so long as they're white, and it's not a good enough reason to entirely exclude so many superbly feminine African American women that I see daily--anthropometric skull differences or no.

I don't think promiscuity has anything to do with why women in porn are masculinized! Most women find pornography degrading, but those virilized women probably identify with men more and care less about women's rights. Also, abused women are more likely to have an increase of testosterone and decrease of estrogen, although I cant find the study for it. They appear more masculine. Women with abusive/neglectful upbringings often end up in pornography. So that's a potential confounding factor.

Feminine women aren't "allowed" to be promiscuous. I, an exceptionally feminine woman with the exception of "robust cheekbones" due to some of my awesome residual Native American heritage, would love to have as many attractive mens' cocks in me as often as I could gather them, but diseases and cultural indoctrination have prevented me from doing so. If I can find a way around the diseases part, I am shedding the cultural bullshit ASAP, all 32DD-22-35 of me, bissshhh.

And another thing, height is hereditary and can be altered depending on pathogenic interference/lack of nutrition during development, but what one is fundamentally inheriting is a propensity toward estrogen or testosterone production. Tall women ARE masculinized, although you can find ones with both high testosterone and indicators of higher than average estrogen. However, if the ratio of estrogen to testosterone were extremely feminine, she would be shorter than average, and also more fertile. There are studies, and whatnot.

Admit it, you like this one aspect of the current beauty ideal that denigrates sexual dimorphism. So you can pick and choose which extremes are ideal based on your own preferences?

Look at any message board about VS models. Most people HAVE sanctioned it. Tyra Banks, who I dislike primarily for her idiocy and horrendous pseudo-personality, is even on the cover of my fucking Shape magazine this month. Cancelling it. Soon.

Kimberly: You have not explained what is sexist in my arguments; just made an empty accusation. I have clearly explained that this site is targeting people of European ancestry; all problems it is addressing are of Western origin. Therefore, the absence of non-European women in the attractive women section has nothing to do with racism. I do not have the time to address non-European women in a manner similar to European women nor is it relevant to this site.

What do you mean that I am adding masculinized women to the attractive women section everyday? This section is updated infrequently and has very few slightly masculinized women, none describable as manly, and their addition is to show that some masculinization is not aesthetically deleterious.

The great majority of women participating in pornography do not have an abusive background, and many of them could have made a decent living doing other things. Most of these women enjoy what they do and are happy/eager to do it on camera. I have cited evidence that women inclined toward promiscuity tend to have above average masculinization, and the underlying explanation involves the organizational and activational effects of androgens. People who favor a restrictive sociosexuality for women are not more inclined toward allowing masculinized women to be promiscuous compared to feminine women. So fear of venereal diseases and cultural indoctrination is holding you back? The typical promiscuous woman with a similar education as yours is also aware of the risk of venereal diseases and has likely encountered similar cultural conditioning, but is not holding back. Why? Stronger libido, that is why. And, don’t tell me that this is culturally conditioned when there is a simpler and more parsimonious explanation, namely that greater exposure to androgens is increasing the likelihood of both physical masculinization and stronger libido and thereby increased likelihood of promiscuity.

With a 32DD-22-35 physique, you should not have a problem attracting plenty of male attention, and I could help you attract even more men if you send me your pictures. You should be well-aware of the utility of condoms in diminishing venereal diseases/HIV risk and should also be aware of ethnic variation in the likelihood of being an HIV/STD carrier. Therefore, if you had a strong libido, chances are that you would act on your desires after taking the necessary precautions, but if you are a typical feminine woman, then your libido will not be strong enough to translate fantasy to behavior.

Give up your ridiculous belief regarding height and testosterone. Apparently, you have an insufficient background in the biological sciences. The genes behind body size, including height, primarily comprise of [many] quantitative trait loci, i.e., genes that individually make a small contribution to the organism. Androgens account for a minority of the variance in height. Therefore, it is certainly possible for a more feminine woman (specifically having lower androgen levels) to be taller than a more masculine woman, though women with above average femininity will be more likely to be below average height than above average height. The correlation between sex hormone profile and height is not perfect or even close.

Most people have not sanctioned the use of masculinized female models. Controlled laboratory studies show that most people harbor a preference for above average femininity in women, i.e., people’s preferences, properly evaluated, haven’t been affected. Most people having a high opinion of Victoria’s Secret models are either nonheterosexual, haven’t seen enough feminine and attractive women or are fooled by posing tricks, implants and airbrushing.

Feminine women go against the cultural slut-shaming all the time; how many feminine let loose in college? A lot, but of course, for her it's still the "walk of shame" when she leaves in the morning. It's bullshit Erik.

I also stumbled upon that little gem of a book you wrote containing more bullshit about how "feminists are usually lesbians," insinuations that homosexuality is a disease, and that feminine women naturally kowtow to a sexist culture because it's what they want and how they are, vs. those bad masculine women who act that way because only men are capable of such feats as libidinousness, assertiveness, etc. And I'm sure you'd even agree with that modern-day-phrenology movement that wants to use evolutionary psychology to justify women's insubordination in the sciences.

You have taken one good observation about the nature of cultural beauty ideals and used it to promote your own disgusting agendas.

Anyone who doubts me on that ought to check out your other site:

And I urge people to read the scary snippets of the ode to your own insanity:

To the guy commenting that you hate homosexuals, I apologize that my defense was that you don't hate homosexuals, but homosexuals hate women. Your biases and circular reasoning are beyond obvious in your book preview.

I also love how in the book, you do point out that models are between 5'8'' and 6'0''--masculine heights. I have been saying this all along but you have been argumentative about identifying it as a masculinized trait for whatever reason.

Clearly you're the one without a background in science, as you have abandoned scientific reasoning or any semblance of logic, which is best illustrated by your insane book preview.

Really, I hope all site visitors take the time to read how crazy it is.

Kimberly: So I have no background in science and have abandoned scientific reasoning or any semblance of logic? Let us see just how “scientific” your response is.

You have brought in off-topic issues because of your inability to criticize my reply. You have judged a book by reading a few excerpts and not seeing how the cited evidence supports the arguments, which can be inferred by the absence of any reasoning as to why the arguments in it are crazy and insane. Your portrayal of its arguments represents craziness.

The book explicitly argues against homosexuality being a disease, and does not imply anything along the lines of “feminine women naturally kowtow to a sexist culture because it’s what they want and how they are, vs. those bad masculine women who act that way because only men are capable of such feats as libidinousness, assertiveness, etc.”

The book doesn’t argue that feminists are usually lesbians but that a huge proportion of feminists are lesbian. Here is the relevant quote:


Clamoring for genuine women’s rights does not distinguish feminists from non-feminists espousing the same rights. Although it cannot be assumed that all homosexual women are feminists, a huge proportion of feminists are homosexual. Therefore, an examination of thinking that is exclusively feminist will perhaps shed some light on the thought processes of several homosexual women.

The quote is followed by an examination of core feminist beliefs, and it should be obvious that women who hold on to these core beliefs in spite of evidence to the contrary are unambiguously feminist, and lesbians are vastly overrepresented among these women.

The book doesn’t say that models have “masculine” heights. Here is the quote:


Female haute couture models range from 5’8” to 6’0”, i.e., they are as tall as men, on average.

Where is it implied that women in this height range are masculine because of the height range?

To point out my “disgusting agendas,” you link to a page where I argue that Christianity is unfairly blamed for anti-gay sentiments. You have not disputed anything in the essay, and there are no recommendations representing any agendas in it either. In case you haven’t figured out, I am not a Christian.

How reasonable a reply on your part! You need to comply with the basic requirements for a reasonable debate or not comment here.

Geez! Kimberly Conrad looks more like David Lee Roth!!

... and Christina Marie Leardini looks like a young John Travolta in drag!void(0 WHERE cid= ';
big surprise

I agree that those playmates are hideous, trashy trannies but I loled at the sad plain janes you chose as better looking. The only attractive women in your attractive women section are Charlize Theron and Katherine Heigl. You have awful taste and that is why you will never succeed in convincing anyone other than jealous fatties and white supremacists that your women are the epitomes of femininity and attractiveness.

Danielle: I haven't made the argument that the playmates shown above are "hideous, trashy trannies." Do you seriously believe that "jealous fatties" -- presumably jealous of skinny high-fashion models -- will be pleased by my featuring normal weight women, a number of whom have tiny waists?

I also have not argued that the women in the attractive women section are epitomes of femininity and attractiveness. This section makes it clear that some women shown are somewhat masculine but have compensatory elements such as fine facial features. Since this section primarily relies on nude models, and the best looking women do not pose nude, the women shown there cannot be epitomes of beauty. But if I am successful in the long run, you will see numerous epitomes of feminine beauty in this section and of course in the public limelight.

Erik, Hugh Hefner denied that he watches gay porn. I think is very prejudiced to say that some men's preference for masculinized women is code for an unexpressed homosexual inclination. You can see Hugh Hefner denying the gay porn rumor at this link:

Elizabeth: I haven't argued that "some men’s preference for masculinized women is code for an unexpressed homosexual inclination." In Hefner's case, you need to look at a number of issues.

The gay porn argument is weak. Jill Ann Spaulding could be easily lying just as Hefner could be, too, but Hefner has reported experimenting with bisexuality. What kind of heterosexual man voluntarily indulges in homosexual behavior?

I can cite evidence that lifetime-exclusive heterosexuals are different, with respect to sexual orientation, from self-identified heterosexuals that have indulged in homosexual behavior or experienced same-sex attraction at some point of their lives.

Just consider the stature of Playboy magazine: the most high profile of its kind, it gets women to pose nude who would not model nude elsewhere, and it pays its centerfolds an exorbitant amount compared to the vast majority of its competitors. What then explains the kind of women shown above? A nonheterosexual component to the attractions of the Editor-in-chief is strongly suspected, and Hefner has admitted to voluntarily indulging in homosexual behavior, confirming the suspicion.

Colleen Marie is not that masculinized Erik.

Elizabeth: Since Colleen Marie's picture is taken from a high profile publication, you should allow for make-up and other factors. There is a masculine element in her; see this picture, and note her muscularity, too. She is not too masculine, but view her masculinity in reference to where she has appeared and what it, along with the other choices, tells one about the orientation of the person selecting these women.

Erik: What happened to my recent post on this page?

Supermodels are ugly.

I came across this page while trying to research the reason why I, a fine-featured, good looking woman, seem to attract feminized men, lesbians, and closet homosexuals. Always thought it might have to do with my bone structure, which I've always blamed on the rampant patriarchal alcholism in my family. Many generations of women who've had to be self- sufficient leave me with nice big hips, but with enormous hands and rib cage, flat bottom, etc. By modern standards, I am a catch.

However, I know better.

This site is interesting, and I am happy, finally, to hear a public statement supporting views which I have felt were true for so long. Obviously, it's sad to have to admit that although I do look like many of the beauty contestants on these pages, there is a real problem when our women look masculine and it's considered sexy.
I'd like to see you explore more of the reasons why. Yes, the gay male fashion editors have something to do with why this trend is palatable, but I think it's a widespread problem which is misperceived... More and more women actually look like MEN and more and more men look like women.
This is true in my locale, and while I've wondered about the water quality, plant and meat hormones, etc... I think it may have more to do with male desertion. When a man ceases to care for his lady, that lady probably compensates for the benefit of her family with increased testosterone production, or at least in some way becomes more male.

I will probably never find the man of my dreams... mainly because I'm interested in intelligent, heterosexual men.

Your site state feminine beauty? so I wish the women you posted above would be above average attactive? they are ugly but they are just normal looking girls, charize theron is fine but not that beautifull, but I don't like the one in the left of the first role, she appears to has alot of freakles, red carrot hair, perhape she really has feminine details on her face but only look at her skin I find it's stop me to consider further that she is one of beautifull.

The two women in the third role are also look very ordinary to me. especially the first one. if she has dark hair and asian skin I'd miss understood she is far east asian girl.her face looks almost like one of my half chinese friend, quite like deborah uger, and the last one of the third role has horse teeths.

I will give you the pictures of very very beautifull arab girls, never seen any women that beauty as them.

You chock I know? because they are beautifull beyond believe

More and more men do not look like women or vice versa. This assumption is obviously based on the appearance of celebrities and famous people in the media industry over the past century which is just as inaccurate as someone in another 50-100 years looking at today's famous people to get an idea of the general appearance of the earth's population at large. If you actually looked at photos of people in the general population over the last 150 years, or drawings or anthropological data going back before the advent of image capturing you would see that women were no more feminine appearing in general or men any more masculine looking than now.

Many of the playmates above do sport a more masculinised appearance but this term is inaccurate. It is not as if they have taken steroids, they would appear as such whether Hugh Hefner fancied them or not.

You talk about women the way a farmer talks about cows. Fecundity, fertility, proportions. All slightly different versions of the same human being. When a woman talks about a man she usually uses far more adjectives as regards his personality than his appearance believe it or not. Its almost embarrassing to think that this is the preoccupation of the heterosexual man.

Christina does indeed bear an uncanny resemblance to John Travolta.

Whipped honey: I never saw any comment left by you on this page.

Manhands: There is a problem with estrogen-mimicking pollutants; they have presumably increased the number of effeminate human males. I don’t know about women becoming more masculine over time. People have become more obese, women with excess body fat tend to be more masculine, and body fat reserves are a site for extra-gonadal testosterone/estrogen synthesis. So increasing obesity in women may be related to a more masculine appearance.

Whether women working to be self-sufficient end up with a stable increase in testosterone production, I don’t know.

You should not give up on finding the man of your dreams. Fine features and good looks are a plus, and a pleasing personality/good nature compensates for deficits in looks. Post your profile at various dating sites if necessary and be honest. You will get favorable responses.

Debra: The nature of this site requires a discussion of correlates of physical appearance such as proportions. Sometimes it is also necessary to address correlates of physical appearance such as fertility and fecundity. This does not mean that this is how I see women. There are many scenarios where women’s physical appearance is irrelevant, and I couldn’t care less how they look.

To The person who posted the pictures of the Arab women –

Why are you using a different name in just about very comment you post? You need to stick to a single name.

You have posted similar pictures elsewhere within this site, and there is a problem with your argument. If you wanted to argue that Arab women look better than white women, don’t use pictures of white women who happen to be “Arab” just because they were born in the Middle East or else your argument boils down to “some white women look better than other white women,” which does not need to be stated. European tribes have historically dispersed themselves widely and in some cases been forcibly dispersed, and their remnants can be found in places around the world. I once came across a site posting pictures of attractive Turkish women, and the interesting thing was they were all white though you have posted some pictures of non-white Arabs.

Erik: It's a kind of strange? I know european have the most well face's propostion than the other race? but many of their features' detail also not nice, such as freckle and unsofted skin, too pale, hairy etc. but the white women in arab countries seem gorgeous and prettier than the white in europe. all people whom visited there said the same arab women are beauty like goddess.

perhape u wanna look at some picture? someone took the trib girls from the mountian of kashmir. I find they look very much like european.

and this Indian actress, what do you think about her erik? is she pretty?

Zonneschijn: White women in the Middle East generally look similar to white women in Southern Europe. I don’t see how you can say one group is better than the other. Anecdotal examples won’t help. Systematic evidence is needed. You gave reasons such as freckles, “unsofted skin,” paleness and hairiness. Time to consider some clines (variation over a broad geographic region) in the Euro-Mediterranean region. The freckling problem becomes more severe when one goes up north and especially northwest, but some level of freckling likely does not affect more than half of Northern Europeans, and severe freckling is uncommon. The skin is finer among Northern Europeans and there is less body hair among them. Whereas most people would agree that less freckling, finer skin and less body hair among women is more attractive, skin color preference varies, and the paleness of Northern Europeans does not count against them in an objective sense. So you have not provided arguments to support your contention.

The Kashmiri girls you posted pictures of look like women from some tribes in the Middle East. You will find some who look like them in Southern Europe, but their face shapes aren’t “very much like European.”

The Indian actress doesn’t look bad, but your pictures are overexposed (the photographer/photo editor used too much light). Find pictures of her where normal lighting is used.

The Indian actress I posted are from movie in my dvd. on television it's clear but when put the movie into pc. the color seems to be that way. and I find it quite difficult to find her picture on internet because she played only two movies and never play again. these all I could find of her on internet. on movie she looks more prettier with clear emerald green eyes and completely white skin but I do not like her nose much, it alittle bit too long.

and Kashmiri girl

I'd like you to add some of feminine oriental girls too, I find they have nice skin and petite body, but the most I do not like their slant eyes much. I like big rounded and if teh women don't have big rounded eeys and double eyelids I will not find she is pretty. that's why I like middle east because they have beautifull eyelids. but this thai half german girl is the good example of feminine south east asian woman.

Erik what do u think about far east asian girls? do you find them pretty and feminine? why don't u put some far east women into websit also?

oh, another one of Indian actress, I got more of her. same one with the Indian actress aboved.

feminine women do not have a strong libido, a higher sex drive is due to high levels of testosterone, so if this is your arguement then i have to agree with kimberly who is obviously lying about her impossible to have without plastic surgery measurements but is correct that you are only featuring masculinized women in the "beautiful women section"

i have personally noticed that you seem to like women who look weak, stupid, and nonthreatening. none of the women there are striking or anywhere near beautiful. I guess that should be expected from a racist homophobic man from the midwest. oh and its really freaking creepy how you dont realize your insistance that big breasts are feminine will only feed to more and more women hating their bodies and getting breast implants (which will kill a women a lot earlier than an eating disorder)

"i have personally noticed that you seem to like women who look weak, stupid, and nonthreatening. none of the women there are striking or anywhere near beautiful. I guess that should be expected from a racist homophobic man from the"

Be careful with the word "racist". He is not racist if he generally prefers the looks of white women, or because he might think that white women are generally more feminine. Had he preferred black or asian women to white women in terms of looks we wouldn't have heard a thing about racism.

Many people of other races say all the time that they prefer their looks. At the same time they trash white people's looks and no one says a thing. What's the difference? Is that not racism, then?

Many men of different races prefer white women in terms of looks and have always done so. Live with it. Having a physical preference is not racist, just as it's not racism when non-whites declare their races more beautiful, which they do loud and clear every day. I am sick and tired of the double standard, quite frankly. White people are afraid to be proud and to find beauty in their own race, and this is not healthy. This fear and guilt is something almost exclusively seen among whites who have been told for so very long that it is somehow not proper to have these natural feelings that ALL races have.

Eric might think white women are generally more feminine. I think he has shown this to be true here on this site. The fact that white women with delicate and soft features are oftentimes more feminine than women of other races is not his fault. Sometimes truth hurts, but you don't refute an argument by throwing around nasty accusations.

"midwest. oh and its really freaking creepy how you dont realize your insistance that big breasts are feminine will only feed to more and more women hating their bodies and getting breast implants (which will kill a women a lot earlier than an eating disorder)"

If women "hate " their bodies they should address their own mental problems instead of blaming everyone else. Men know that many women prefer big penises but we don't see men with small penises saying that women are the reason that they feel so insecure about their penises, do we? Why don't men attack women's preferences for tall, dark-haired men with large penises? Maybe because they are less immature than many women who don't take personal responsibility for their own insecurities and hang-ups, instead trying to force men to feel attracted to something they are not attracted to.

Should Eric say that small breasts are more feminine or that size doesn't matter, if it clearly does to many men? I don't think the truth is served by lies. He has shown examples of women with small breasts who are still very feminine, and women with big breasts who are not feminine at all in his opinion, so he has clearly shown here that there is not just one desirable feminine female form. Just because someone might prefer a certain type of looks doesn't mean that you cannot find beauty in other types as well.

zonneschijn: You asked why I don’t put pictures of far-East Asian women at this site. The answer is lack of time, especially in light of the fact that this site is not targeting East Asians. Anyway, you have put up many pictures of East Asian women though often not very East Asian looking.

umm: More feminine women tend to have a weaker libido, on average, but this does not prevent a given feminine woman from having a strong libido. Even if you exclude social factors, many factors apart from testosterone affect libido. So Kimberly’s stated measurements are not necessarily a lie in reference to her libido.

I don’t have a ‘beautiful women section’ but an ‘attractive women section.’ Female beauty is better conceived of as feminine beauty, whereas female attractiveness will typically but not always be of the feminine variety. I have put a few somewhat masculinized women in the attractive women section and have used appropriate labels; this is not inconsistent with this site’s goals.

Your labels such as weak, stupid, non-threatening or striking are irrelevant. What matters is form/shape, not adjectives.

Other things being equal, bigger breasts are more feminine, but other things will typically not be equal and hence one will easily come across more overall feminine women with smaller breasts. Since I am not equating femininity with large breasts – and Emily has explained this is some detail – I am unlikely to drive many women to getting breast implants. And breast implants are not as deadly as anorexia.

Jessica Albas face is ugly, Scarlette Johanson has a funny face esp without her makeup, but I haven't seen your other pick. I bet she's dog faced too.

this girl in my class huz got huge boobs, but a man face. what went wrong? how does one end up looking like a man with nice tits?

With most of the others in the 'masculinized' section, it's pretty obvious that they're a little more manly than the average dame, but I really don't see how Jenni from Femjoy is at all like that.
Jenni appears to have a nice, soft face and jaw with no angles, hips that are noticeably wider than her waist, a round butt, and nice breasts that are definitely adequate, if not the sort you could get lost in.

Is this girl just so beautiful that I'm missing something obvious?

Great site, btw.

stoner Joe: There are male bodybuilders who develop female breasts on top of a thick layer of muscle. So a man-faced woman with big breasts is hardly unusual. Estrogens promote deposition of fat in the breasts. Women with elevated levels of both androgens and estrogens will show signs of masculinization along with a tendency to have well-developed breasts. Alternatively, the woman could have genetics not related to estrogen production that causes large breasts. In another possibility, genetics not related to masculinization could make parts of her face look masculine.

Ethan: Jenni looks great to me, but she has muscularity that is above average compared to the other women in the attractive women section.

Most refreshing site I've ever seen! Never have I felt more vindicated in regards to my own personal beliefs. Thank you!

your examples of attractive women make me curious...
they look like inbreds with mental retardation.

This guy who created this site sounds like a in fruitcase! Hell, attraction comes in all shapes and the hourglass figure isn't the only thing lauded and wanted by men. As studies (just google it - obviously if ya got the time to create this crappy, but funny ass website, then you sure as hell have the time to peruse the internet to find articles and examples of what I am saying), when in times of great starvation and suffering, men tend to opt for women who are fat since fat is a counter to women who are skinny, who are obviously as well as represent starvation while fat or hourglass shaped ladies represent health since they are obviously getting food. The reason why skinny is desired over here much like the blonde hair, blue eyes thing a decade ago is because it is rare - well, not rare - but unusual and reps a counterpoint to all the masses of people - both men and women - who can engorge themselves due to an epidemic of food. That is why back in the 18th, 17, and earlier centuries, full figured women were desired because they represented health by their full figures in the face of starvation and the bubonic plague, etc. See, attraction is correlative, if anything, to economics. When there is a lack of food, men go after fatties. When there is a plentitude of food, men go after sticks. That's just the way it works. As for women, ours is more stable and eternal in that we go after those who can offer the most support. Back in the cave person era, it was being able to run away mastadons. Now it is who has the biggest wallet since you no longer need to be 6'3 and full of steel muscle like a Navy Seal to bring home the bacon. You can be 5'3 and accomplish that with the most awesome organ of them all - the brain. As a matter of fact, women can get that butter - the money - on our own and we don't need the guys to do it! As a matter of fact, I think the masculinization of women may be th evolutionary result of women - such as myself - needing to keep men, off their backs or closet cases, gay dudes, etc. I am 5'4 1/2, hell, I might as well say 5'5, and 100 lbs and I have a tendency to attract closet cases, have overt gay men do things for me for free (straight men NEVER do0 and treat me nice and cordial. I have personally always found feminine looking guys attractive and good looking, can blow your mind and pass women who look like men. I think it's dangerous to put attraction in a purely scientific light. I guess all I am saying is, don't make crap about scientific variables. Just let it be...

As for whoever said that those women in the "attractive" section are "attractive," you sure are right...those are some ugly broads, esp that one with the wide spaced out eyes and big forehead. BTW brah, symmetry counts alot and that is why those women are supermodels because they're facial symmetry is close - but no cigar - to perfection. Night, cause I got to roll out!

Ray Rave: I have looked at the other studies you allude to. Attraction may come in all shapes, but most of these shapes tend to be preferred by a minority. Most people share a preference for the same narrow range of shape variation. In present-day Western society, high-fashion models and Playboy centerfolds notwithstanding, most people, both men and women, prefer a subset of the medically normal body weight range and above average femininity in women. The notion of full (overweight) figures being preferred by Europeans a few centuries ago is a myth. Whereas symmetry is a correlate of physical attractiveness in women, femininity is a much more powerful correlate of this variable. And, no matter how much society has changed, short men remain at a major disadvantage when it comes to dating. A short man typically has to have some powerful compensatory feature—such as wealth, fame, power—to be successful with women.

hef is a douche. always has been.

Hi, I'm a gay man and I found this thread fascinating (and controversial). lol

As a gay man, I like my women to be feminine and my men to be masculine. Catwalk models do nothing for me. I don't think they're thin and boyish due to "aesthetic preferences" of gay designers. I think they're thin and boyish purely to show off the clothes. A good model is one who doesn't distract from the clothes. A really gorgeous feminine chick would take attention off the clothes due to her beauty. This could mean less revenue for the designer.

Victoria's Secret models? Ugh. They just look weird to me - tiny waists and big breasts. It's an odd combination and doesn't look natural.

I don't read a lot of straight porn. And if what Erik says about Playboy is true, now I know why. lol. Masculine women don't appeal to me. I'm sure many of these women were picked because they are Hugh's "type". I'm sure others were picked because they were happy to pose and highly sexed. The idea that androgen levels affect a woman's sex drive makes a lot of sense to me.

I agree feminine women (soft faces, proportional, slim but not skinny, shorter) are the most attractive. I don't like bulimic Barbies.

I don't think gay men "hate" women. That is a bizarre accusation to make. I think most gay men are indifferent to women, and have a distinct preference for men and/or masculine features. Just because I love apples, that doesn't mean i hate oranges. In the same way, just because a gay man desires men, doesn't mean he has anything against women. He simply has a preference (and may have no feelings at all, either positive or negative, toward women and feminine features).

Erik certainly isn't racist or sexist. I think his theory is very interesting and credible.

Last but not least, would heterosexual women find masculinised women "sexy" in that heterosexual women are attracted to men and masculinity? That would be an interesting proposition. As a gay man, of course I think masculinity is "sexy". But I understand if straight males don't agree and would prefer more feminine women in Playboy.

Anyone who knew about bodybuilding would know that bodybuilders that develop "b*tch-tits" is due to the aromatization of estrogen when they take such hormones such as testosterone, which is why they need an anti-estrogen after any hormone cycle that contains hormones or steroids that aromatize to estrogen. Not every bodybuilder that takes said hormones develops "bitch-tits". Also some men produce very thick chest muscles when they work out (due to superior genetics) that are not breasts, but rather muscles pumped up which may "look" like breasts but they are made of muscle, mainly water since most muscle is made up of water.

Im gay too. I also, ironically, have loved playboy since I was a teen. I can assure you most playmates are not masculine at all. Hef has dated some stunning women though, Brande Roderick, Tina Jordan, Stephanie Heinrich, Christi Shake they are among my favorite playmates.

As a big fan of Playboy I have to say not all the playmates are masculine women. The beautiful Jamie Ferrel, Brande Roderick, Shannon Stewart, Summer Altice, Nichole Van Croft and Kayla Collins (to name a few) are among my favorite playmates of all time and are VERY far from masculine. Also there are so many different types of the female body that it would be impossible to name the "best" of them all. To use Playboy as an example, our pal Mr. Hefner runs many different types of women: bikini models, print models, runway models, fashion models, fitness models to name a few. Not all playmates are the blonde barbie, the only recent playmates that have that typical "barbie" look that come to mind are Buffy Tyler, Kara Monaco, Christi Shake....

I wouldnt consider Hefner gay at all just because he had an "experience" in which he only received oral from a man. You cant really build a substantial relationship just on a quick blow job, or can you? I couldnt...

Most of these playmates, if not all, that you posted as very masculine are def not the most beautiful women in playboy. There are also some very fit women that have beautiful feminine faces. You may not like that type of look, and thats ok we can respect your opinion. But I do have to make the case that there are stunning women with great fit hard bodies. Some playmates that have that look are Karen McDougal, Jamie Westinhiser, Lindsay Elizabeth Wagner and Crista Nicole.

PS to other posters above: Anyone from Middle East, North Africa, Europe and most Hispanics are all White. Asians are practically the only light skinned people that arent considered white.

If I was straight and I could choose a woman I would pick a stunning central european woman, probably of german descent. Those woman, from what Ive seen, are drop dead gorgeous. With long blond hair, brown eyes, long legs, a tight waist, around 5'7" and with a nice shape and soft facial features about 120 pounds. But then again, Im gay...just my 2 cents!!


Dude, you're probably gay.

LOL! Yeah he's probably either a jealous she or a very feminine he who just doesn't have the usual attraction to women that most heterosexual males do and he's trying to make it look like it's because 70% of woman aren't feminine! LOL! Only idiots would listen to this bull! What a good chuckle this silly site gave me today...

Amen brother Ray! This guy's going to keep chasing his tail in circels never really proving anything!

Also, that girl second from last is so much more masculin than the models and so ugly! This will never be scientific. This stuff is all based on opinions. Femininity and beauty are ver subjective.

trannys and drag queens all do the same crap these women do....spackle on makeup, bleach their hair to a crisp, get tons of plastic surgery....i'm pretty much convinced they're all dudes.

The whole point of her statement was that Eric's trying to "change" the ideal of what we find attractive, yet he's still claiming the bigger breasts are what the hetero-man really wants. Yes, women know this, and this is why women get breast implants. If the fashion industry can "cause" eating disorders and that is wrong, why is it any different if you read sites like this and once AGAIN are told that the majority of hetero men are going to prefer big breasts on women? It isn't any different. In fact, women in the fashion industry don't have big breasts, as we've seen with the comparisons of the models vs. the "glamour" models. The glamour models have huge, natural breasts, and the fashion models don't. But gee, women still get breast implants, don't they? It's because of guys like Eric saying that that's what women "should" look like. So yes, it is mens fault that we have self esteem issues with our breasts. We're told that if we want to please men and be attractive, we're supposed to have big breast, and the only way to do that if you don't already have big breasts, is with implants. As far as penis size goes, mens penises aren't on display wherever they go. We don't know what size penis they have unless they show us. Plus, penis size is important during sexual intercourse for the woman. Breasts are secondary, and don't change the feeling of sex or men.

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