most of the women you are tearing down do not have implants, and ironically almost ALL of the women you exalt have huge implants!! Are you not aware of this?? 'natural' figures I think not...
I think Heidi looks great! I am naturally thin, too--with large natural breasts--I don't look out of porportion! Heidi does not either! I am not against fatter models, but the ones you picked are just oridinary looking girls with implants (except the last one who has no breasts) that you got from some porn website!! EXPLOITING YOUNG GIRLS!! --people also do not want to see yellow teeth!
Abbsters!!!! Dude i didn't know u were a model! omg you like came up when i googled u cause lily said u would and geusse what u did! Man, those pics r wicked sweet! I was like whoa dang! keep up the awesome work girl! Lots of love!
~Emma
btw- Whoever Erik is needs to get a life and stop telling my friends to play with barbies! He probly said that cause he secretly plays with them himself! lol love ya girlies!
Confidential to Beth Ditto: In New Musical Express you're quoted as saying, "If there's anyone to blame for size zero, it's not women. Blame gay men who work in the fashion industry who want these women as dolls." That's bullshit. If you want to blame something for size zero, Beth, blame cheap and abundant food. When food was scarce and most poor suckers were starving to death, fat bodies were the beauty ideal and skinny girls were oppressed. Now that food is plentiful and most dumb motherfuckers are eating themselves to death, skinny bodies are the beauty ideal and fat girls are oppressed. File it under "What goes around, comes around." But take heart, Beth: Food may soon be scarce again, thanks to climate change, and fat girls will rule the runways.
And, Beth, if gay men had the power to dictate beauty ideals to impressionable straight men, we wouldn't order boys to lust after women—big or small, dieting or diabetic. We'd order them to lust after cock, Beth—big and small, dockable and undockable.
yes you R pushing women to have more feminine/white looks.
"a fine chisled nordic nose"
and btw,
if good aesthetics = being feminine, then naturally it makes women want to be more feminine (after reading your page, N E wayz).
you dont have to persuade people to do something by outright saying it.
no one really goes out and says "hey! white is right," do they?
they just plaster pictures of white faces all over the world, so that people in asia and africa get the ethnic nose jobs and skin whitening creams. srsly.
One last thought- the fashion world is like the art world in that it is all about being 'cutting edge', what is thought to be cutting edge is increasingly what is thought to be dangerous- women who look dangerous are generally somewhat more masculine, hence the 'masculinization' of fashion models. It's not just about what is biologicaly innate and perhaps what you think is immutable, it's about the evolution of our psyche as a culture.
I know my tastes may be more in the minority, but I also know plenty of women who prefer feminine fashion-model looking men, these men are just more threatening and less approachable. I believe firmly that androgyny has charisma, take David Bowie, or his wife, Iman, people like that have glamour and that is what the fashion world is about. When I say that fashion models represent power, I only mean that their masculinized faces and tall slender phisques exude a certian intelligence and out-of-this-world inacessibility. I know you chalk this all up as a mistake that has been spawned and perpetrated by the minds of gay men, but gay men comprise a huge portion of the art world and many are very intelligent and visionary, take Andy Warhol for instance, a veritable giant. Maybe the vocabulary they are using is less about what appeals to your average man sexually, and more about iconography. Fashion plates are iconic, that is different from being sexually accesible. All of the great fashion models have an androgynous look- take Twiggy- sexy, maybe, maybe not, charismatic and iconic, yes, Kate Moss, same. Why do you think the Calvin Klein ads were so compelling? I remember specifically seeing those for the first time and being shocked, not only at the sexuality, but at the boyishness of Kate Moss- she had glamour- rockstars have glamour- that whole concept is how fashion sells itsself, not through cuteness. The more average, feminine women you posted are cute, but cute has little power to sway an audience if not accomanied by some degree of 'fierce'- what about Angelina Jolie, how many people would not say she's beautiful, yet she could be one of your high-fashion models- she's tough.
What do you think of that woman who won i think it was Miss world the indian contestant Priyanka Chopra who is now doing Bollywood films. Do you find that she is masculine looking overall or feminine?
So Erik you know a lot abouts what femminine what masculine. Does a white euorpean woman who has high wide cheekbones and a sqaure jaw more masculine? I wouldn't say so. I think women with sqaurer faces an bigger cheekbones look more feminine actually. A lot of different ethnic peoples exhibit those features like Eastern Europeans and Asians.
What about height I heard stupid things from jealous short women that tall woman if even she does have a femminine shape and is not skinny or heavy , is still not a very femminine height and more men are attracted to short women. I think its just the other way around I think there are a lot of men who like taller women. Height isnt a masculine trait is it? I hope not. Becasue I could just put it the other way aroundand say that short men are femminie which is supid.
WOW Abbie we are sitting here looking at these pictures and we're thinking your probably one of the coolest people ever! haha....but seriousley keep it up and stay GORGEOUS!
Paul: Yes, I will be commenting on the 2007 Miss Universe pageant. These pageants keep getting worse. I know of one person who usually takes a favorable view of a good number of masculinized fashion models, but even he regarded this pageant as a farce. This guy is Dwayne Bell at the body in mind site. His words:
Quote:
May 26, 2007 - The Miss Universe pageant airs this Monday evening from Mexico City...but be warned, it may not be something you want to watch.
Miss Sweden, who "applied" for the position along with men(because Sweden can't abide sexual discrimination, even when choosing "Miss" Sweden), older women, etc in feminist-run Sweden, has dropped out because the contest is demeaning to women. Miss Jamaica is showing up in mangy dreadlocks, Miss Tanzania has a shaved head, and part of Miss Colombia's national costume includes a bloodied stick used to kill bulls during a bullfight.
Watch it if you can stomach it. We're sure there won't be many more broadcasts in the future if this destruction of beauty continues.
Will you be commenting on the 2007 Miss Universe pageant? I started reading your site just before the pageant and watched it with a more critical eye. Your theses, arguments and empirical data have reenforced what I had felt instinctively but could not put into words. The 2007 Miss Universe pageant, to me, was a sham and a disservice to beauty pageants and beautiful women.
Abbie you are picture perfect! Dont EVER even think about changin, everyone loves you so dont worry about what ppl say....dont quit being you because deep down everyone is INSANLEY in love with you just the way you are! You rock and I love you SOOO much!
Abbie you are picture perfect! dont EVER change, everyone loves you so dont worry about what ppl say....dont quit being you because deep down everyone is INSANLEY in love with you just the way you are! You rock and I love you SOOO much!
Sarah: If I avoid responding to your comments, this will not ensure that you will not leave comments in newer entries. Additionally, I can’t just not respond when I encounter smear and misrepresentation. I have already explained why I don’t want you to comment here. The reasons have nothing to do with your disagreeing with me. Plenty of people have expressed their disagreement with me at the blog. What would be the point of allowing people to comment if I only wanted people to comment if they agreed with me? Foul language on your part is not a reason by itself either. Anyone that has read enough of this blog knows that I usually ignore profanity. However, when a particular commentator repeatedly comes up with profane and foul commentary, then what choice do I have but to ask this person to behave? People who do not have a valid criticism are most strongly tempted to resort to foul language and insults. This is the reason why it is necessary to ask a repeat offender to behave so as to keep the focus on valid criticism.
The basic reason why I want you to stop commenting here is your inability to understand numerous scientific issues, obviously due to insufficient background. As a result, you continually misrepresent my stances and make me repeat many of my counter-arguments. This cannot be allowed indefinitely, and it is all but certain that you will not change. For instance, in your last comment, after saying, “I apologize for my “abusive” behavior,” you called me the “biggest hypocrite on the internet,” “douche bag,” “jerk” and someone in the “pedophile closet.” I believe this should clarify why I want you to stop commenting here.
Here is a brief response to your misrepresentations of/failure to understand my arguments in your last comment:
Quote:
You accuse me of making “ridiculous racist suggestions about attractiveness” and coming up with “racial superiority arguments.” You have yet to refute anything in the “aesthetics in international beauty pageants (AIBP)” section on scientific grounds. This section clearly argues that physical attractiveness cannot be objectively compared across different ethnic groups. I have already responded to Frank’s caricature in this regard.
You talk about my “arguments on femininity or lack thereof among different races.” Firstly, as it should be clear, the AIBP section is not addressing actual femininity (would require hormonal assays, steroid receptor profiles, etc.), but the femininity of physical appearance. The argument should also be clear that masculine and feminine women are found in all ethnic groups. An argument was made that Northern European women are overrepresented among the most overall feminine-looking women. This argument was a minor point of the AIBP section, which is a small part of this site. The AIBP section discusses numerous correlates of beauty apart from masculinity-femininity. When the AIBP section was initially posted, it was in the form of an obscure link inside the left column because I had intended this section to be a minor part of this site, but only after multiple reader requests did I put it within the main site navigation column. Therefore, you, Frank and others like D’Artagnan have made a big deal out of a minor part of just one of several sections of this site, a section that was originally meant to be a minor part of this site. You have asked me what was the purpose of addressing femininity of appearance within the AIBP section and whether I was trying to offend people. The purpose was clearly stated in the introduction to this section, i.e., an examination of whether people from different ethnic groups can be objectively compared with respect to attractiveness to a degree exacting enough for international beauty pageants...the goal being to improve these pageants by applying these objective standards if they exist or to reorganize them to retain a maximal focus on physical attractiveness if objective criteria could not be found.
Here is a type of argument by you that I have low tolerance for:
Quote:
You said –
Quote:
Frank, as well as myself and others have already provided you with multiple counter arguments to your “Europeans are holier than thou” opinion, yet you refused to acknowledge them and even decided to be RUDE to those that weren’t even rude in the first place.
What you call counter arguments are nothing but ad hominem, misrepresentations and misunderstandings, and I have responded to all of them with sufficient citations taken from peer-reviewed journals. I don’t like it when your kind of pathetic arguments are described as superior to an empirical argument. You come up with the absurd suggestion that I believe “Europeans are holier than thou.” If so, why would I be pointing out the masculinization and unattractiveness of so many European models and beauty pageant contestants? I don’t believe that I have been rude to those who weren’t rude to me in the first place.
Here are additional issues that you have made me repeat:
Quote:
You accuse me of “ragging on certain Victoria Secret models.” I have repeatedly pointed out that my criticism is not directed toward the models but the people/circumstances selecting them for purposes that they are not suited for.
Like I said before, I have not said that your face is apparently feminine; the latter described the picture you posted, and I stated that I don’t believe that it is your picture.
I have already noted that I have not been trying to lower your self-esteem. If you like your looks, I hope you continue liking them. I have not argued that a woman who bitterly disagrees with this site, like you, is necessarily masculine, but that your comments suggest that you are unfeminine and on the masculine side and have a high opinion of your looks. There are masculinized women lacking a high opinion of their looks who would never be as pissed off as you are at this site.
Whereas gay fashion designers are responsible for using masculinized women when feminine ones are needed, I am not arguing that feminine women should be used when masculinized models are required, i.e., I am not aiming for the inverse of what gay fashion designers are doing.
Here is a response to other points by you:
Quote:
What examples do you pick to illustrate that “what is universally beautiful in this modern day is completely different than that in history”? A painting of Marie Antoinette. She was a famous individual. What indication is there that her painting was meant to epitomize beauty as universally held by the French? You also mention paintings of some ancient Chinese beauties. There are not a whole lot of ancient Chinese paintings depicting the human form in hyperrealistic form. Therefore, what indication is there that these ancient beauties would be very unattractive by modern Chinese standards? You even use the term “universally beautiful,” even though this site makes it clear that there are a limited number of universal standards. Some standards that can be considered to be near-universal are blemishless skin, and you can bet that people in the past generally preferred it, too, if their culture did not mandate ritual scarification or equivalent. Some correlates of beauty discussed within this site are characterized by broad agreement in the population but not universality.
You just guess that some Chinese beauties would be considered unattractive in the past. You are saying that East Asian beauty standards have been affected by Western influence. Why hasn’t Western influence made East Asians aim to become westernized on other counts that are prominent characteristics of the West? For instance, why are not East Asians welcoming immigrants of a different ethnic background in large numbers? Why are these East Asians not as welcoming of homosexuals as the Dutch and Canadians? Do you believe that East Asians do not have a mind independent enough to develop their own likes and dislikes? Exposure to Westerners has merely made a preference among East Asians more prominent, namely higher attractiveness ratings on their part of Asian faces that are more overall derived than average, thereby closer to European norms.
A 5-foot-1 woman with 30-23-31 measurements and small breasts does not have a small rib cage for her frame. To answer your question, it should be obvious that if the breasts get larger, the rib cage has to get smaller to maintain the same bust circumference.
I did not call the cut out of the young woman’s physique you posted feminine. All I said was that if your physique looked like the cut out of the woman’s physique, then you would not have a problem with this site.
Lynne: Since you are the same person using multiple aliases such as Chris/Chris2, g2go and many others, refuse to stop using multiple aliases in spite of my repeated requests, have a preference for masculinized women, keep repeating that you are a straight man, are unable to see a masculine element in numerous women clearly possessing it in spite of going through this site, and keep calling the feminine women shown here homely, plain janes, fat cows, women with hanging cellulite, women who look like dogs, etc., I have no wish to engage you in any dialogue and will not be answering your questions. You will get nothing out of this site...instead of browsing this site do something else.
g2go: You have posted under numerous aliases such as Chris, Chris2, Elijah and a whole bunch of others. This is the last warning to you. You have repeated your points many times. Repeat them once more or use another alias and your comments will no longer be entertained. You will get nothing out of this site...don't bother with it.
Simon: The statement means that I don't have a strong dislike for masculinization in women that some have assumed. The women above are not on the feminine side, but I still think they look good.
The reason that these women are unlikely to become big-name fashion models is because they have limited time to make it big (they are at least 18) and are not masculine enough. Just compare them to top-ranked high-fashion models.
Tim: Email me clear pictures. I would be reluctant to use a 1-10 scale because this requires a well-defined reference standard shared by you and me, but can address masculinity-femininity with respect to population norms or specific individuals.
Erik, did you receive my email?
-Tim
most of the women you are tearing down do not have implants, and ironically almost ALL of the women you exalt have huge implants!! Are you not aware of this?? 'natural' figures I think not...
I think Heidi looks great! I am naturally thin, too--with large natural breasts--I don't look out of porportion! Heidi does not either! I am not against fatter models, but the ones you picked are just oridinary looking girls with implants (except the last one who has no breasts) that you got from some porn website!! EXPLOITING YOUNG GIRLS!! --people also do not want to see yellow teeth!
Abbsters!!!! Dude i didn't know u were a model! omg you like came up when i googled u cause lily said u would and geusse what u did! Man, those pics r wicked sweet! I was like whoa dang! keep up the awesome work girl! Lots of love!
~Emma
btw- Whoever Erik is needs to get a life and stop telling my friends to play with barbies! He probly said that cause he secretly plays with them himself! lol love ya girlies!
white power!@!!!!
PS, bb:
Confidential to Beth Ditto: In New Musical Express you're quoted as saying, "If there's anyone to blame for size zero, it's not women. Blame gay men who work in the fashion industry who want these women as dolls." That's bullshit. If you want to blame something for size zero, Beth, blame cheap and abundant food. When food was scarce and most poor suckers were starving to death, fat bodies were the beauty ideal and skinny girls were oppressed. Now that food is plentiful and most dumb motherfuckers are eating themselves to death, skinny bodies are the beauty ideal and fat girls are oppressed. File it under "What goes around, comes around." But take heart, Beth: Food may soon be scarce again, thanks to climate change, and fat girls will rule the runways.
And, Beth, if gay men had the power to dictate beauty ideals to impressionable straight men, we wouldn't order boys to lust after women—big or small, dieting or diabetic. We'd order them to lust after cock, Beth—big and small, dockable and undockable.
http://www.eugeneweekly.com/2007/06/07/savagelove.html
yes you R pushing women to have more feminine/white looks.
"a fine chisled nordic nose"
and btw,
if good aesthetics = being feminine, then naturally it makes women want to be more feminine (after reading your page, N E wayz).
you dont have to persuade people to do something by outright saying it.
no one really goes out and says "hey! white is right," do they?
they just plaster pictures of white faces all over the world, so that people in asia and africa get the ethnic nose jobs and skin whitening creams. srsly.
kk bb.
srsly. whateverz. white power!!oneoneone
Whats so masculine about ana beatriz barro's face?! It looks all woman to me! f a woman has really high cheekbones it means she has a masculine face?1
One last thought- the fashion world is like the art world in that it is all about being 'cutting edge', what is thought to be cutting edge is increasingly what is thought to be dangerous- women who look dangerous are generally somewhat more masculine, hence the 'masculinization' of fashion models. It's not just about what is biologicaly innate and perhaps what you think is immutable, it's about the evolution of our psyche as a culture.
Erik
I know my tastes may be more in the minority, but I also know plenty of women who prefer feminine fashion-model looking men, these men are just more threatening and less approachable. I believe firmly that androgyny has charisma, take David Bowie, or his wife, Iman, people like that have glamour and that is what the fashion world is about. When I say that fashion models represent power, I only mean that their masculinized faces and tall slender phisques exude a certian intelligence and out-of-this-world inacessibility. I know you chalk this all up as a mistake that has been spawned and perpetrated by the minds of gay men, but gay men comprise a huge portion of the art world and many are very intelligent and visionary, take Andy Warhol for instance, a veritable giant. Maybe the vocabulary they are using is less about what appeals to your average man sexually, and more about iconography. Fashion plates are iconic, that is different from being sexually accesible. All of the great fashion models have an androgynous look- take Twiggy- sexy, maybe, maybe not, charismatic and iconic, yes, Kate Moss, same. Why do you think the Calvin Klein ads were so compelling? I remember specifically seeing those for the first time and being shocked, not only at the sexuality, but at the boyishness of Kate Moss- she had glamour- rockstars have glamour- that whole concept is how fashion sells itsself, not through cuteness. The more average, feminine women you posted are cute, but cute has little power to sway an audience if not accomanied by some degree of 'fierce'- what about Angelina Jolie, how many people would not say she's beautiful, yet she could be one of your high-fashion models- she's tough.
Erik
What do you think of that woman who won i think it was Miss world the indian contestant Priyanka Chopra who is now doing Bollywood films. Do you find that she is masculine looking overall or feminine?
So Erik you know a lot abouts what femminine what masculine. Does a white euorpean woman who has high wide cheekbones and a sqaure jaw more masculine? I wouldn't say so. I think women with sqaurer faces an bigger cheekbones look more feminine actually. A lot of different ethnic peoples exhibit those features like Eastern Europeans and Asians.
What about height I heard stupid things from jealous short women that tall woman if even she does have a femminine shape and is not skinny or heavy , is still not a very femminine height and more men are attracted to short women. I think its just the other way around I think there are a lot of men who like taller women. Height isnt a masculine trait is it? I hope not. Becasue I could just put it the other way aroundand say that short men are femminie which is supid.
Geez! Kimberly Conrad looks more like David Lee Roth!!
WOW Abbie we are sitting here looking at these pictures and we're thinking your probably one of the coolest people ever! haha....but seriousley keep it up and stay GORGEOUS!
Paul: Yes, I will be commenting on the 2007 Miss Universe pageant. These pageants keep getting worse. I know of one person who usually takes a favorable view of a good number of masculinized fashion models, but even he regarded this pageant as a farce. This guy is Dwayne Bell at the body in mind site. His words:
Quote:
Erik:
Will you be commenting on the 2007 Miss Universe pageant? I started reading your site just before the pageant and watched it with a more critical eye. Your theses, arguments and empirical data have reenforced what I had felt instinctively but could not put into words. The 2007 Miss Universe pageant, to me, was a sham and a disservice to beauty pageants and beautiful women.
sorry sent that 2 times abbie but i guess you deserve it twice haha
Abbie you are picture perfect! Dont EVER even think about changin, everyone loves you so dont worry about what ppl say....dont quit being you because deep down everyone is INSANLEY in love with you just the way you are! You rock and I love you SOOO much!
Abbie you are picture perfect! dont EVER change, everyone loves you so dont worry about what ppl say....dont quit being you because deep down everyone is INSANLEY in love with you just the way you are! You rock and I love you SOOO much!
Sarah: If I avoid responding to your comments, this will not ensure that you will not leave comments in newer entries. Additionally, I can’t just not respond when I encounter smear and misrepresentation. I have already explained why I don’t want you to comment here. The reasons have nothing to do with your disagreeing with me. Plenty of people have expressed their disagreement with me at the blog. What would be the point of allowing people to comment if I only wanted people to comment if they agreed with me? Foul language on your part is not a reason by itself either. Anyone that has read enough of this blog knows that I usually ignore profanity. However, when a particular commentator repeatedly comes up with profane and foul commentary, then what choice do I have but to ask this person to behave? People who do not have a valid criticism are most strongly tempted to resort to foul language and insults. This is the reason why it is necessary to ask a repeat offender to behave so as to keep the focus on valid criticism.
The basic reason why I want you to stop commenting here is your inability to understand numerous scientific issues, obviously due to insufficient background. As a result, you continually misrepresent my stances and make me repeat many of my counter-arguments. This cannot be allowed indefinitely, and it is all but certain that you will not change. For instance, in your last comment, after saying, “I apologize for my “abusive” behavior,” you called me the “biggest hypocrite on the internet,” “douche bag,” “jerk” and someone in the “pedophile closet.” I believe this should clarify why I want you to stop commenting here.
Here is a brief response to your misrepresentations of/failure to understand my arguments in your last comment:
Quote:
Here is a type of argument by you that I have low tolerance for:
Quote:
Here are additional issues that you have made me repeat:
Quote:
Here is a response to other points by you:
Quote:
Take home message: stop commenting here.
Lynne: Since you are the same person using multiple aliases such as Chris/Chris2, g2go and many others, refuse to stop using multiple aliases in spite of my repeated requests, have a preference for masculinized women, keep repeating that you are a straight man, are unable to see a masculine element in numerous women clearly possessing it in spite of going through this site, and keep calling the feminine women shown here homely, plain janes, fat cows, women with hanging cellulite, women who look like dogs, etc., I have no wish to engage you in any dialogue and will not be answering your questions. You will get nothing out of this site...instead of browsing this site do something else.
g2go: You have posted under numerous aliases such as Chris, Chris2, Elijah and a whole bunch of others. This is the last warning to you. You have repeated your points many times. Repeat them once more or use another alias and your comments will no longer be entertained. You will get nothing out of this site...don't bother with it.
I just think that the women you show look like dogs and are homley compared to the real v.s,sports illustrated swimsuit models.
Damn does a woman have to have super narrow jaw, tiny nose,tiny lips, big huge breasts, big ass,cellulite to be considred femminie?!
I hope not!
Would Penelope cruz be considered masculine?
http://images.google.com/images?um=1&tab=wi&hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=penelope%20cruz
what about Paz Vega?
http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=paz+vega&spell=1
Michelle Pfeiffer?
http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=michelle+pfeiffer&btnG=Search+Images
Jennifer Aniston
http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=jennifer+aniston&btnG=Search+Images
Angelina Jolie
http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=angelina+jolie&btnG=Search+Images
I would like to know
Thanks
Simon: The statement means that I don't have a strong dislike for masculinization in women that some have assumed. The women above are not on the feminine side, but I still think they look good.
The reason that these women are unlikely to become big-name fashion models is because they have limited time to make it big (they are at least 18) and are not masculine enough. Just compare them to top-ranked high-fashion models.
Tim: Email me clear pictures. I would be reluctant to use a 1-10 scale because this requires a well-defined reference standard shared by you and me, but can address masculinity-femininity with respect to population norms or specific individuals.
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