Philomela: What does your comment have to do with this article? Since various commentators bring up the same issues, I have no choice but to repeat some points. This entry is aimed toward avoiding having to repeat -- in other threads -- the same comments about various correlates of beauty; all I have to do is to point the reader to this entry.
I don't see how blue collar workers will be "bullied" into agreeing with me based on words like "transsexual" and "gay." Why should I stop updating this site? There is so much more to add that I will never run out of materials. Besides, none of the pictures posted at this site qualify as "porno pix."
Amy: The advantages and disadvantages of lying along various points on the masculinity-femininity distribution differ. Compared to the average, somewhat above average femininity among women would correspond to better fertility and fecundity as well as higher attractiveness ratings by most people. Therefore, with respect to some characteristics, being average is not the ideal, and given the importance of attractiveness in numerous scenarios, being average is not necessarily the overall ideal in various scenarios.
To conclude that a woman is in the middle of the masculinity-femininity distribution based on overall looks one would need to be familiar with the subtlety of physical variation resulting from masculinization and feminization, and infer averageness if most features suggest placement close to the average with at most a few features suggesting above average femininity or above average masculinity.
Tim: Your question is answered over many page within this site. Read around. What people find to be beautiful results from some combination of intrinsic preferences and the influence of the social environment; you should start here. People also vary with respect to the extent to which the social environment can manipulate their aesthetic preferences.
Margaux/Maddy Boylen/Goosey/close friend/Someone: Quit posting under multiple aliases. Try to make an effort to understand the purpose of this entry, which isn’t to critique the looks of Abbie. Her looks are used as an illustrative example of how tall teenage girls can look like boys in their early adolescence in some cases. No one here is jealous of Abbie’s looks. Once again, I personally wish her the best of success in her modeling career.
On the other hand, this site is meant for adults. You need to go back to playing with Barbie dolls or else I am going to spank you.
Abbie is in the grade above me and me and all my friends are always talking about how nice and beautiful she is! So SHUT UP!! You wish you had a job in a modeling agentcy! So EAT IT!
LEAVE ABBIE ALONE!!!! SHE IS TO PRETTY!!!! ya....i go to her skool and ya...shes really nice and is MOST DEFINATLY PRETTY and ya i agree w/ goosey, abby k, maddy, and marguax! u all r just extremly jelous.....
Do you believe views on what is considered beautiful are conditioned by society or those attitudes are entirely natural? Does media programming dicate what is and is not attractive?
Erik it would just seem obvious that to be in the middle of the scale i.e neither completely feminine nor completely masucline would give you the best of both worlds and would be the overall ideal. I was curious to know how you come to the comnclusion oine is neither too masculine nor too feminine is it a case of the masucline and feminine physical features evenly balance?
I agree melisande, your bod is great, the sterotypical plastic women with the big rack are overdone. Do you have a personal or professional site, or somewhere you can be contacted by email? I'd really like to use a gal for a photo shoot, a different style of softer porn.
your site is poorly written; you tend to restate yourself over and over, and throw around terms like "transexual" and "gay" in order to bully your bluecollar audience into agreeing with you. Nice try overall! I would leave the site as it is and stop bothering with updates if I were you though.
ps: I'm very feminine, and I think the porno pix are hot, so don't even start.
Can you please define what feminine features are, exactly? I would think that femininity is determined by culture. Perhaps you could provide some information on what a woman looks like who has higher testosterone levels than another, in order to prove that the traits you say are "feminine" are not merely cultural ideals. thanks!
"Anyway, it would be useful to know that its now always about what men want. "
Your site is basically saying that fashion models should change to be more pleasing to men. You did not directly say women should bev
"subservient to what men want." But that is the point of this website. To change the fashion models so they please you more.
"It’d be appreciated if you weren’t so critical. All these women are gorgeous and many more in this world. If you critisize models this way, what do you say about other women on a daily basis? Do you critisize yourself this intensely? "
I'm repeating what I said before because you tend to avoid addressing certain things that I write you.
"Your website is only taking women backwards as you consistently reitterate how they should fit a certain image and be a certain opinion of aesthetically pleasing (yes, you aren't saying all women should fit a certain image, you are saying super models should. but you know as well as I that fashion is part of the media which dictates cultural ideas of beauty, therefore, women will be expected to fit these ideals in order to be attractive.) . Women are not here to please men. They are humans not commodities. They should not be the women you keep at home while you fantasize about your playboy/glamour shot girl or whatever you want to call them. "
Amy: You are referring to this woman. A woman who is neither feminine nor masculine is in the middle of the masculinity-femininity range. Yes, there are some advantages to being in the middle of the range, and there are even some advantages to being on the masculine side. I will come up with an entry titled "sexually antagonistic selection" where I will address some important advantages and disadvantages of lying at various points of the masculinity-femininity range.
In your website you a pictures of a blonde haired woman which says underneath neither feminine nor masculine but still looks good, I was curious to know what you mean by neither feminine nor masculine si it possible to be neither feminine nor masculine and if so isnt it the ideal to be in the middle would it not be overall attractuive not leanining too much to one side of the scale?
OMG! rachel hunter is fugly. your criticism is precise. many of the women purported to be "supermodels" don't even exhibit femininity. i'll put veronica zemanova or susana spears up against any of the so-called supermodels on any day of the week.
Sarah: I am not pushing women into achieving feminine looks. This site is about the nature of beauty and masculinity-femininity in the physical appearance of women; the long-term aim is to bring more feminine and attractive women to the limelight. I am not arguing that what I say should be accepted as feminine and attractive. I have cited enough studies and illustrative examples to show what is feminine and what most people find to be attractive. Nowhere have I argued that women should seek surgery to make themselves look more feminine. I have even argued that since femininity and attractiveness lie in overall looks, women seeking a few surgeries here and there will not be acquiring feminine beauty, and even if a woman attempts a drastic make-over in the form of multiple surgeries and pharmaceutical treatment -- and few women will have the financial means and willingness to deal with pain -- many parts of the body could hardly be changed and the typical woman is unlikely to acquire a feminine and attractive appearance that meets high aesthetic standards. Therefore, I am neither urging women to make themselves look more feminine, nor is this site going to sharply increase the number of women seeking surgery to make themselves look more feminine given current medical technology.
I am not trying to make you feel bad about your looks; just pointing out what they are not. Nobody reading your numerous profanity-laden irate comments would believe that you look feminine. In a separate response, I have explained how 30-23-31 measurements could vary along the masculinity-femininity scale; yours being on the masculine side obviously. If you feel good about your looks, then please continue to do so, but you need to stop commenting here.
Jump: The double eyelid surgery example among East Asians by no means implies that “people of a certain ethnicity will regard people of the same ethnicity as themselves as more attractive the less they look like the average person of said ethnicity.” After all, averageness is a correlate of beauty. However, there are also correlates of beauty that correspond to deviation from the average. The averageness correlate bounds the extent to which deviation from the average, in specific ways, will correspond to greater beauty. The upper eyelid structure issue among East Asians is a specific example where a less ethnic look is preferred by many Asians, which does not imply that a less ethnic look will be preferred on all other counts also. The example certainly doesn’t suggest anything along the lines of “modifying one’s appearance towards any ethnicity other than one’s own.” For instance, you will almost never come across East Asians requesting aesthetic rhinoplasty (nose job) to shift their noses toward sub-Saharan African norms.
Sarah: Stop commenting here. If you find this site entertaining, read it, but don’t comment. You have repeatedly come up with abusive posts, ad hominem, character assassination, misrepresentations and have clearly not understood a number of my arguments. You also do not have a sufficient background in science to be debating scientific issues. Just stop commenting.
Now that your pathetic exchange regarding the extent to which you have been pleased by this site has been clarified, you have come up with a statement that you should have added that you never implied that you were displeased with this site either. Anybody who takes the trouble of reading your comments in this thread alone and elsewhere, too, along with your aliases such as “.” without the quotes, maddie, Madeline and SH will realize right away that you have been very displeased by this site, most likely because you are nowhere close to looking feminine and have a high opinion of your looks. You wrote, “Despite my personal loathing of you...” Why would someone hate another if she were not displeased by the hated person? You tell me that you don’t get angry easily, but a number of your comments above have surely been the product of a really pissed off and angered person. You enjoy arguing with people who are dumber than you? Sane individuals do not enjoy this act since it can be difficult or impossible to get someone to understand an issue that requires higher intelligence.
The following is a response to your 3 points with respect to the chart.
1. There are obviously numerous reasons behind hair dyes. People dying their hair green or blue are certainly not trying to look like another ethnicity. When people dye their hair a natural human color that is either not present or so rare as to be practically absent among their ethnic group, the effect here is to make one look less ethnic. This is not to say that the hair dye was specifically intended to make one look like another ethnic group, which is an argument that you have again accused me of making, notwithstanding my correction of your earlier accusation regarding double eyelid surgery among East Asians. White women cannot end up looking less ethnic regardless of what hair color naturally found among humans they dye their hair to.
2. Yes indeed, a number of women in all ethnic groups get eye and nose surgery for aesthetic purposes. However, the point is clear in the chart, which you have either not understood or don’t care to acknowledge. Whites do not use eyelid surgery and nose surgery for aesthetic purposes to look less European, whereas many among the East Asians seeking these aesthetic surgeries aim to look less Asian. There is much more to the form of a nose than mere size. An Ashkenazim reducing the size of her nose for aesthetic purposes will not try to shift nose shape toward East Asian or sub-Saharan African norms, but will usually shift shape toward more European norms. If you regard the Ashkenazi as European, then the aesthetic rhinoplasty patients among them will generally seek to make their nose look more European (most European-looking noses are found among Nordics), whereas many East Asian aesthetic rhinoplasty patients will seek to make their nose look less Asian, not more Asian (e.g., making their nose bridge more prominent rather than less prominent).
3. My comments pertaining to Asians and altering ethnic looks correlate very well. I posted three pictures of double eyelid surgery patients to show that in numerous cases some level of ethnic look pertaining to the eye is retained to counter your allegation that I implied that this surgery is used by Asian women to look whiter. You claim that the women “don’t look any less ethnic” after the surgery, which is patently false. In all cases, there has been a clear reduction of ethnic looks in the upper eyelid, and the least in the third picture. These women don’t have to stop look Asian for me to say that there has been a reduction in ethnic looks. Yes, there are many Asians with a natural double crease in the upper eyelid, and their upper eyelids look less Asian, on average, compared to those with a single crease. Just compare the second patient with the third patient in the 3 pictures posted previously. The second patient had a natural double crease in the upper eyelid, but still used surgery to shift the crease toward even less ethnic looks.
Regarding a 5-foot-1, 30-23-31 physique, for the same measurements, the physique could vary along the masculinity-femininity scale depending on breast size, backside protrusion, etc. If this woman has a C-cup, her rib cage would be clearly smaller than a woman with an A- or AA-cup, and the former case would look more feminine. Similarly, the woman could have not-so-wide hips but more prominent buttocks or wider hips but flatter buttocks for the same hip measurement. A woman with such measurements could also have shoulders varying from broad to narrow. What is clear is that your physique is unfeminine and on the masculine side and you have a high opinion of your physique or else you would not be so pissed off at this site. If your physique looked like the cut out of the woman’s physique pointed out by you, then you would not have a problem with this site. Don’t tell me that I don’t like toned bodies and a tiny waist. The attractive women section is full of women with a tiny waist and good muscle tone.
This site is incorrectly viewed as my ragging on fashion models/masculinized women. I do not have any problems with fashion models or masculinized women. My problems are with the homosexuals using masculinized women for purposes that they are not suited for. Don’t misunderstand me. I have not said that your face is feminine. I don’t know how it looks like. What I can be reasonably certain of is that the partial face cut-out you posted does not show you. If you are happy and confident enough to consider yourself attractive, then all I have to say is may the Gods bless you and I hope that you continue to feel this way regardless of the contents of this site, but you need to stop commenting here.
Jump: The Afro hair example is correctly used. The context is specifically that a derived feature will not necessarily look more European, and was in response to your statement, “And because her features are more derived than the other’s, they will look more European.” The page where you got the quote from provides an extensive discussion of what derived facial features are and to what extent they overlap with Europeanization. Read this page and the entire section that it is a part of. I cannot explain it in a simpler manner.
Hmmm.. you posted this comment on May 28 yet refused to respond to my other comment on the human evolution thread. How peculiarly amusing! What, nothing clever to say yet? Don't worry, I'll give you more time.
Having a feminine figure isn't necessarily unhealthy, but neither is being tall, skinny, and masculine looking if that is what a woman naturally looks like. You frown upon the fashion designers in the industry for trying to push young women into starving themselves to be skinny, while at the same time YOU'RE pushing women into trying to achieve tiny waists, etc etc. It's the same exact thing, except only your standards of what is beautiful is different. Some women are just what you consider masculine looking, just like some women aren't beautiful enough to be a fashion model in the eyes of the fashion industry. It doesn't matter - what matters is that YOU do not get to decide what is universally accepted as beautiful or feminine, because YOU are a nobody and probably have never even been close to dating a beautiful or feminine woman. Who are you to try to encourage young women into getting surgery to reconstruct their faces to fit your ideal feminine profile? Some women are just born with high cheek bones, flat chests, etc., just like the women you claim as "attractive" are too plain and average to be models.
I'm still loving the fact that you choose not to believe that those are not my real measurements.. ahahahaha. Honestly, you're a big joke. I know myself exactly what I look like; YOU don't. You can keep ragging on petite little girls all you want, but it's just because you're a chubby chaser. Having 31-23-30 measurements isn't even that bad, and you know it, but you're trying EVERYTHING you can to try to make me feel bad because I chose to voice my opinion on how disgusting I think you are. Even if those were my real measurements at age 17, it still wouldn't matter - I would have time for my hips to grow, and I'm pretty sure a lot of girls would die to be that thin (including myself at that age.) If anything, this site of yours has only boosted my confidence; I have big eyes, a small nose, baby cheeks, and a pretty impressive WHR. I'm sorry that you're continuous efforts to try and put me down aren't working, but unlike many young girls that you target, my confidence will never suffer from such pathetic opinions from a loser like you.
For as long as you will continue responding to me, I will continue commenting unless you take the time out to block me. See, I actually have MANY people here that agree with me. It's one thing to be a hypocrite, but when you make such white supremacist like comments, that's where most people will draw the line. Bottom line, you're scum :)
Happy day now Erik. If you have ANYTHING to say at all in response to this comment or the one I left on the "human evolution" thread, feel free to go all out and tell me what you really have to say. I'm guessing you're probably going to ignore me now though, considering the fact that I make you want to rip your hair out.
Este sitio es una mierda, el que lo escribio deberia morir o encontrarse un hobby, lamento haber perdido mi tiempo leyendo esto
(This site sucks, the writer must die or find a hobbie, i'm sorry to lost my time reading this crap)
first off, you keep saying that victoria's secret uses the models because off their big names, male mags and vs pretty much made all of their careers. with the exception of giselle they didn't get famous for their fashion where "gay men dominate" editorials or lack of..i'm an avid reader of fashion mags..most of the vs models, have never really been big in the fashion world, they are in men magazines, and beauty..that's about it. most of the vs girls don't have the bodies for fashion or runway, they are actually too curvy. btw lingerie companies aren't dominated by gay men, there are actually more successful female lingerie designers...the most popular companies are female owned...to name a few: Only Hearts owned and designed by helena stuart, Agent Provocateur by vivenne westwood, Coco De Mer by Sam Roddick, Trashy Lingerie creative director Bridget Silvestri, La Perla owner Anna Massotti, victoria's secrect v.p.creative marcia mossack. gay men defintely do not dominate the lingerie buisness. Gay men also do not dominate the beauty and men mag or vs or even fashion photography industry either. straight men dominate the photography world for sure....no question.
okay , you prove again you do not understand women or what drives their purchases. when a woman buys lingerie they are buying it implusively and they buy it with no plans at all past that they want. fantasy drives the purchases and not even sexual fantasy. the fantasy of walking out on her veranda facing the mediteranean sea in the morning feeling beautiful in silk and lace with a vanilla latte in hand, or the fantasy of laying in bed in a bungelow in st. thomas listening to the waves and the birds in the background. or going to the opera in nyc in a beautiful oscar de la renta gown and underneath are your silk stockings that match perfectly with you embroidered corset. there might be a man in a fantasies here or there maybe, but it's not actual sex that women are thinking of when they buy underwear usually. it's to add something special to the ordinary. and women love to wear beautiful underwear even if no one ever sees it, they even love to just collect it in their draw even if they never wear it...it's something that only makes sense to women, i guess thats hard for a man to understand.
now for you last question fashion models which are different than beauty and vs models are not choosen for male arousal or to be hot. alot of them are choosen because they have an intesting or unique look and they are tall and thin, they aren't suppose to have womanly curves they are clothes hangers. gemma ward for instance is not a lingerie model and she is not built like a vs model. she would never be picked up by vs. karolina kurkova is the only vs model probably not appropriate for lingerie(i never argued she was) i would admit she's a better fashion model. but the rest of the vsms are defintely appropriate.
last thing the top FASHION models do not need to appeal to the majority of people, they only need to appeal to a minority of woman and men that read fashion magazines and or buy high fashion designer clothes and or live in higher class areas of cities...people like me. models like zuzana would not appeal to those people. and models like her will not appeal to even the higher middle class 16-27 female that is the consumer of the vs product(especially now with their pink line). and the models they use do appeal to that consumer group.
To the person who just wasted 20 minutes: I am not sure what sociological terminology you are talking about. Must be someone else. I have no background in sociology or cultural studies.
Pointing out the masculinization of Victoria's Secret models is not illegal, and the company's lawyers cannot stop it. Besides, if they wanted me to explain in detail how masculine VS models are, I would be pleased to do so in person.
one more thing, this is for Erik, if you are man enough, you should take your idea to the headquarter of Victoria Secret and the model agencies. i think their lawyers would be interested to hear what you like to say to them.
Philomela: What does your comment have to do with this article? Since various commentators bring up the same issues, I have no choice but to repeat some points. This entry is aimed toward avoiding having to repeat -- in other threads -- the same comments about various correlates of beauty; all I have to do is to point the reader to this entry.
I don't see how blue collar workers will be "bullied" into agreeing with me based on words like "transsexual" and "gay." Why should I stop updating this site? There is so much more to add that I will never run out of materials. Besides, none of the pictures posted at this site qualify as "porno pix."
Amy: The advantages and disadvantages of lying along various points on the masculinity-femininity distribution differ. Compared to the average, somewhat above average femininity among women would correspond to better fertility and fecundity as well as higher attractiveness ratings by most people. Therefore, with respect to some characteristics, being average is not the ideal, and given the importance of attractiveness in numerous scenarios, being average is not necessarily the overall ideal in various scenarios.
To conclude that a woman is in the middle of the masculinity-femininity distribution based on overall looks one would need to be familiar with the subtlety of physical variation resulting from masculinization and feminization, and infer averageness if most features suggest placement close to the average with at most a few features suggesting above average femininity or above average masculinity.
Tim: Your question is answered over many page within this site. Read around. What people find to be beautiful results from some combination of intrinsic preferences and the influence of the social environment; you should start here. People also vary with respect to the extent to which the social environment can manipulate their aesthetic preferences.
Margaux/Maddy Boylen/Goosey/close friend/Someone: Quit posting under multiple aliases. Try to make an effort to understand the purpose of this entry, which isn’t to critique the looks of Abbie. Her looks are used as an illustrative example of how tall teenage girls can look like boys in their early adolescence in some cases. No one here is jealous of Abbie’s looks. Once again, I personally wish her the best of success in her modeling career.
On the other hand, this site is meant for adults. You need to go back to playing with Barbie dolls or else I am going to spank you.
Abbie is in the grade above me and me and all my friends are always talking about how nice and beautiful she is! So SHUT UP!! You wish you had a job in a modeling agentcy! So EAT IT!
LEAVE ABBIE ALONE!!!! SHE IS TO PRETTY!!!! ya....i go to her skool and ya...shes really nice and is MOST DEFINATLY PRETTY and ya i agree w/ goosey, abby k, maddy, and marguax! u all r just extremly jelous.....
Do you believe views on what is considered beautiful are conditioned by society or those attitudes are entirely natural? Does media programming dicate what is and is not attractive?
Erik it would just seem obvious that to be in the middle of the scale i.e neither completely feminine nor completely masucline would give you the best of both worlds and would be the overall ideal. I was curious to know how you come to the comnclusion oine is neither too masculine nor too feminine is it a case of the masucline and feminine physical features evenly balance?
I agree melisande, your bod is great, the sterotypical plastic women with the big rack are overdone. Do you have a personal or professional site, or somewhere you can be contacted by email? I'd really like to use a gal for a photo shoot, a different style of softer porn.
Ryan
thefashionguy@usa.com
your site is poorly written; you tend to restate yourself over and over, and throw around terms like "transexual" and "gay" in order to bully your bluecollar audience into agreeing with you. Nice try overall! I would leave the site as it is and stop bothering with updates if I were you though.
ps: I'm very feminine, and I think the porno pix are hot, so don't even start.
Can you please define what feminine features are, exactly? I would think that femininity is determined by culture. Perhaps you could provide some information on what a woman looks like who has higher testosterone levels than another, in order to prove that the traits you say are "feminine" are not merely cultural ideals. thanks!
"Anyway, it would be useful to know that its now always about what men want. "
Your site is basically saying that fashion models should change to be more pleasing to men. You did not directly say women should bev
"subservient to what men want." But that is the point of this website. To change the fashion models so they please you more.
"It’d be appreciated if you weren’t so critical. All these women are gorgeous and many more in this world. If you critisize models this way, what do you say about other women on a daily basis? Do you critisize yourself this intensely? "
I'm repeating what I said before because you tend to avoid addressing certain things that I write you.
"Your website is only taking women backwards as you consistently reitterate how they should fit a certain image and be a certain opinion of aesthetically pleasing (yes, you aren't saying all women should fit a certain image, you are saying super models should. but you know as well as I that fashion is part of the media which dictates cultural ideas of beauty, therefore, women will be expected to fit these ideals in order to be attractive.) . Women are not here to please men. They are humans not commodities. They should not be the women you keep at home while you fantasize about your playboy/glamour shot girl or whatever you want to call them. "
Amy: You are referring to this woman. A woman who is neither feminine nor masculine is in the middle of the masculinity-femininity range. Yes, there are some advantages to being in the middle of the range, and there are even some advantages to being on the masculine side. I will come up with an entry titled "sexually antagonistic selection" where I will address some important advantages and disadvantages of lying at various points of the masculinity-femininity range.
Erik
In your website you a pictures of a blonde haired woman which says underneath neither feminine nor masculine but still looks good, I was curious to know what you mean by neither feminine nor masculine si it possible to be neither feminine nor masculine and if so isnt it the ideal to be in the middle would it not be overall attractuive not leanining too much to one side of the scale?
OMG! rachel hunter is fugly. your criticism is precise. many of the women purported to be "supermodels" don't even exhibit femininity. i'll put veronica zemanova or susana spears up against any of the so-called supermodels on any day of the week.
Sarah: I am not pushing women into achieving feminine looks. This site is about the nature of beauty and masculinity-femininity in the physical appearance of women; the long-term aim is to bring more feminine and attractive women to the limelight. I am not arguing that what I say should be accepted as feminine and attractive. I have cited enough studies and illustrative examples to show what is feminine and what most people find to be attractive. Nowhere have I argued that women should seek surgery to make themselves look more feminine. I have even argued that since femininity and attractiveness lie in overall looks, women seeking a few surgeries here and there will not be acquiring feminine beauty, and even if a woman attempts a drastic make-over in the form of multiple surgeries and pharmaceutical treatment -- and few women will have the financial means and willingness to deal with pain -- many parts of the body could hardly be changed and the typical woman is unlikely to acquire a feminine and attractive appearance that meets high aesthetic standards. Therefore, I am neither urging women to make themselves look more feminine, nor is this site going to sharply increase the number of women seeking surgery to make themselves look more feminine given current medical technology.
I am not trying to make you feel bad about your looks; just pointing out what they are not. Nobody reading your numerous profanity-laden irate comments would believe that you look feminine. In a separate response, I have explained how 30-23-31 measurements could vary along the masculinity-femininity scale; yours being on the masculine side obviously. If you feel good about your looks, then please continue to do so, but you need to stop commenting here.
Jump: The double eyelid surgery example among East Asians by no means implies that “people of a certain ethnicity will regard people of the same ethnicity as themselves as more attractive the less they look like the average person of said ethnicity.” After all, averageness is a correlate of beauty. However, there are also correlates of beauty that correspond to deviation from the average. The averageness correlate bounds the extent to which deviation from the average, in specific ways, will correspond to greater beauty. The upper eyelid structure issue among East Asians is a specific example where a less ethnic look is preferred by many Asians, which does not imply that a less ethnic look will be preferred on all other counts also. The example certainly doesn’t suggest anything along the lines of “modifying one’s appearance towards any ethnicity other than one’s own.” For instance, you will almost never come across East Asians requesting aesthetic rhinoplasty (nose job) to shift their noses toward sub-Saharan African norms.
Sarah: Stop commenting here. If you find this site entertaining, read it, but don’t comment. You have repeatedly come up with abusive posts, ad hominem, character assassination, misrepresentations and have clearly not understood a number of my arguments. You also do not have a sufficient background in science to be debating scientific issues. Just stop commenting.
Now that your pathetic exchange regarding the extent to which you have been pleased by this site has been clarified, you have come up with a statement that you should have added that you never implied that you were displeased with this site either. Anybody who takes the trouble of reading your comments in this thread alone and elsewhere, too, along with your aliases such as “.” without the quotes, maddie, Madeline and SH will realize right away that you have been very displeased by this site, most likely because you are nowhere close to looking feminine and have a high opinion of your looks. You wrote, “Despite my personal loathing of you...” Why would someone hate another if she were not displeased by the hated person? You tell me that you don’t get angry easily, but a number of your comments above have surely been the product of a really pissed off and angered person. You enjoy arguing with people who are dumber than you? Sane individuals do not enjoy this act since it can be difficult or impossible to get someone to understand an issue that requires higher intelligence.
The following is a response to your 3 points with respect to the chart.
1. There are obviously numerous reasons behind hair dyes. People dying their hair green or blue are certainly not trying to look like another ethnicity. When people dye their hair a natural human color that is either not present or so rare as to be practically absent among their ethnic group, the effect here is to make one look less ethnic. This is not to say that the hair dye was specifically intended to make one look like another ethnic group, which is an argument that you have again accused me of making, notwithstanding my correction of your earlier accusation regarding double eyelid surgery among East Asians. White women cannot end up looking less ethnic regardless of what hair color naturally found among humans they dye their hair to.
2. Yes indeed, a number of women in all ethnic groups get eye and nose surgery for aesthetic purposes. However, the point is clear in the chart, which you have either not understood or don’t care to acknowledge. Whites do not use eyelid surgery and nose surgery for aesthetic purposes to look less European, whereas many among the East Asians seeking these aesthetic surgeries aim to look less Asian. There is much more to the form of a nose than mere size. An Ashkenazim reducing the size of her nose for aesthetic purposes will not try to shift nose shape toward East Asian or sub-Saharan African norms, but will usually shift shape toward more European norms. If you regard the Ashkenazi as European, then the aesthetic rhinoplasty patients among them will generally seek to make their nose look more European (most European-looking noses are found among Nordics), whereas many East Asian aesthetic rhinoplasty patients will seek to make their nose look less Asian, not more Asian (e.g., making their nose bridge more prominent rather than less prominent).
3. My comments pertaining to Asians and altering ethnic looks correlate very well. I posted three pictures of double eyelid surgery patients to show that in numerous cases some level of ethnic look pertaining to the eye is retained to counter your allegation that I implied that this surgery is used by Asian women to look whiter. You claim that the women “don’t look any less ethnic” after the surgery, which is patently false. In all cases, there has been a clear reduction of ethnic looks in the upper eyelid, and the least in the third picture. These women don’t have to stop look Asian for me to say that there has been a reduction in ethnic looks. Yes, there are many Asians with a natural double crease in the upper eyelid, and their upper eyelids look less Asian, on average, compared to those with a single crease. Just compare the second patient with the third patient in the 3 pictures posted previously. The second patient had a natural double crease in the upper eyelid, but still used surgery to shift the crease toward even less ethnic looks.
Regarding a 5-foot-1, 30-23-31 physique, for the same measurements, the physique could vary along the masculinity-femininity scale depending on breast size, backside protrusion, etc. If this woman has a C-cup, her rib cage would be clearly smaller than a woman with an A- or AA-cup, and the former case would look more feminine. Similarly, the woman could have not-so-wide hips but more prominent buttocks or wider hips but flatter buttocks for the same hip measurement. A woman with such measurements could also have shoulders varying from broad to narrow. What is clear is that your physique is unfeminine and on the masculine side and you have a high opinion of your physique or else you would not be so pissed off at this site. If your physique looked like the cut out of the woman’s physique pointed out by you, then you would not have a problem with this site. Don’t tell me that I don’t like toned bodies and a tiny waist. The attractive women section is full of women with a tiny waist and good muscle tone.
This site is incorrectly viewed as my ragging on fashion models/masculinized women. I do not have any problems with fashion models or masculinized women. My problems are with the homosexuals using masculinized women for purposes that they are not suited for. Don’t misunderstand me. I have not said that your face is feminine. I don’t know how it looks like. What I can be reasonably certain of is that the partial face cut-out you posted does not show you. If you are happy and confident enough to consider yourself attractive, then all I have to say is may the Gods bless you and I hope that you continue to feel this way regardless of the contents of this site, but you need to stop commenting here.
Jump: The Afro hair example is correctly used. The context is specifically that a derived feature will not necessarily look more European, and was in response to your statement, “And because her features are more derived than the other’s, they will look more European.” The page where you got the quote from provides an extensive discussion of what derived facial features are and to what extent they overlap with Europeanization. Read this page and the entire section that it is a part of. I cannot explain it in a simpler manner.
*your
Hmmm.. you posted this comment on May 28 yet refused to respond to my other comment on the human evolution thread. How peculiarly amusing! What, nothing clever to say yet? Don't worry, I'll give you more time.
Erik,
Having a feminine figure isn't necessarily unhealthy, but neither is being tall, skinny, and masculine looking if that is what a woman naturally looks like. You frown upon the fashion designers in the industry for trying to push young women into starving themselves to be skinny, while at the same time YOU'RE pushing women into trying to achieve tiny waists, etc etc. It's the same exact thing, except only your standards of what is beautiful is different. Some women are just what you consider masculine looking, just like some women aren't beautiful enough to be a fashion model in the eyes of the fashion industry. It doesn't matter - what matters is that YOU do not get to decide what is universally accepted as beautiful or feminine, because YOU are a nobody and probably have never even been close to dating a beautiful or feminine woman. Who are you to try to encourage young women into getting surgery to reconstruct their faces to fit your ideal feminine profile? Some women are just born with high cheek bones, flat chests, etc., just like the women you claim as "attractive" are too plain and average to be models.
I'm still loving the fact that you choose not to believe that those are not my real measurements.. ahahahaha. Honestly, you're a big joke. I know myself exactly what I look like; YOU don't. You can keep ragging on petite little girls all you want, but it's just because you're a chubby chaser. Having 31-23-30 measurements isn't even that bad, and you know it, but you're trying EVERYTHING you can to try to make me feel bad because I chose to voice my opinion on how disgusting I think you are. Even if those were my real measurements at age 17, it still wouldn't matter - I would have time for my hips to grow, and I'm pretty sure a lot of girls would die to be that thin (including myself at that age.) If anything, this site of yours has only boosted my confidence; I have big eyes, a small nose, baby cheeks, and a pretty impressive WHR. I'm sorry that you're continuous efforts to try and put me down aren't working, but unlike many young girls that you target, my confidence will never suffer from such pathetic opinions from a loser like you.
For as long as you will continue responding to me, I will continue commenting unless you take the time out to block me. See, I actually have MANY people here that agree with me. It's one thing to be a hypocrite, but when you make such white supremacist like comments, that's where most people will draw the line. Bottom line, you're scum :)
Happy day now Erik. If you have ANYTHING to say at all in response to this comment or the one I left on the "human evolution" thread, feel free to go all out and tell me what you really have to say. I'm guessing you're probably going to ignore me now though, considering the fact that I make you want to rip your hair out.
Este sitio es una mierda, el que lo escribio deberia morir o encontrarse un hobby, lamento haber perdido mi tiempo leyendo esto
(This site sucks, the writer must die or find a hobbie, i'm sorry to lost my time reading this crap)
sometimes excessive femininity may have the opposite effect and so a slight degree of masculanization is important
first off, you keep saying that victoria's secret uses the models because off their big names, male mags and vs pretty much made all of their careers. with the exception of giselle they didn't get famous for their fashion where "gay men dominate" editorials or lack of..i'm an avid reader of fashion mags..most of the vs models, have never really been big in the fashion world, they are in men magazines, and beauty..that's about it. most of the vs girls don't have the bodies for fashion or runway, they are actually too curvy. btw lingerie companies aren't dominated by gay men, there are actually more successful female lingerie designers...the most popular companies are female owned...to name a few: Only Hearts owned and designed by helena stuart, Agent Provocateur by vivenne westwood, Coco De Mer by Sam Roddick, Trashy Lingerie creative director Bridget Silvestri, La Perla owner Anna Massotti, victoria's secrect v.p.creative marcia mossack. gay men defintely do not dominate the lingerie buisness. Gay men also do not dominate the beauty and men mag or vs or even fashion photography industry either. straight men dominate the photography world for sure....no question.
okay , you prove again you do not understand women or what drives their purchases. when a woman buys lingerie they are buying it implusively and they buy it with no plans at all past that they want. fantasy drives the purchases and not even sexual fantasy. the fantasy of walking out on her veranda facing the mediteranean sea in the morning feeling beautiful in silk and lace with a vanilla latte in hand, or the fantasy of laying in bed in a bungelow in st. thomas listening to the waves and the birds in the background. or going to the opera in nyc in a beautiful oscar de la renta gown and underneath are your silk stockings that match perfectly with you embroidered corset. there might be a man in a fantasies here or there maybe, but it's not actual sex that women are thinking of when they buy underwear usually. it's to add something special to the ordinary. and women love to wear beautiful underwear even if no one ever sees it, they even love to just collect it in their draw even if they never wear it...it's something that only makes sense to women, i guess thats hard for a man to understand.
now for you last question fashion models which are different than beauty and vs models are not choosen for male arousal or to be hot. alot of them are choosen because they have an intesting or unique look and they are tall and thin, they aren't suppose to have womanly curves they are clothes hangers. gemma ward for instance is not a lingerie model and she is not built like a vs model. she would never be picked up by vs. karolina kurkova is the only vs model probably not appropriate for lingerie(i never argued she was) i would admit she's a better fashion model. but the rest of the vsms are defintely appropriate.
last thing the top FASHION models do not need to appeal to the majority of people, they only need to appeal to a minority of woman and men that read fashion magazines and or buy high fashion designer clothes and or live in higher class areas of cities...people like me. models like zuzana would not appeal to those people. and models like her will not appeal to even the higher middle class 16-27 female that is the consumer of the vs product(especially now with their pink line). and the models they use do appeal to that consumer group.
To the person who just wasted 20 minutes: I am not sure what sociological terminology you are talking about. Must be someone else. I have no background in sociology or cultural studies.
Pointing out the masculinization of Victoria's Secret models is not illegal, and the company's lawyers cannot stop it. Besides, if they wanted me to explain in detail how masculine VS models are, I would be pleased to do so in person.
one more thing, this is for Erik, if you are man enough, you should take your idea to the headquarter of Victoria Secret and the model agencies. i think their lawyers would be interested to hear what you like to say to them.
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