I agree that Adriana Lima can look masculine, along with most fashion models, but you weaken your argument when you compare her with very average looking Slavic girls who have ugly faces. Ex. Gigi from Domai has ugly deepset eyes, an oversize nose, and protruding teeth!!
Whatever agreement I had with you is killed when I see your ugly examples...it's sad that you write so well, then you refute yourself with these pics.
Actually it is bashing. My sister is sometimes termed "drag queen" or mannish because of her broad shoulders and boy does she ever wish she could trade bodies with me. It's one thing to say "she has masculine looking shoulders/face" but terming someone drag queen? It is simply not necessary.
I never once said that feminine health/female health was about being unhealthily thin and masculine and contrary to what you may think, evidence points in a moderate direction from many different leading researchers. If your waist circumference is 70% of your hips, that is considered the ideal healthy waist-to-hip ratio all across the board-- even if you don't have an hourglass figure. If you do not have excess fat and are within the "fit" range of body fat analysis, you are considered healthy regardless of an hourglass figure.
My point here is, I do not think that your site is being necessarily open to the idea that women can still be healthy without having an hourglass figure. You already know that but the way you choose to portray your views on this site will continue to elicit the negative responses from women that is already has, and will continue to do so. There is a better way to make that contrast.
Melody: I agree that women, regardless of how masculine or feminine their physical appearance is or how curvy or slender they are, are all women. However, there are a lot of people who prefer physical features in women that are molded in a developmental environment of somewhat above average estrogen levels and somewhat below average androgen levels. I believe that such individuals should have the opportunities to appreciate the female form they like, something that is also ideally suited for modeling purposes in an alternative fashion industry. There is definitely scope for using ordinary-looking women as models for selling clothes, though this is unlikely to be a high-profile endeavor. In my estimation, there should be two alternative fashion industries, one using feminine and attractive women to undermine the gay-dominated one and the other using ordinary-looking/mildly pleasant models for women neither pleased by the use of skinny women nor feminine beauty for modeling purposes. I will have more to say on this later.
I have largely avoided using porn stars, and if I am successful in the long run, I will not have to use nude models so much, either, and things will become more mainstream. Beauty is not entirely dictated by culture; there are intrinsic elements, too.
At 8:19 AM you posted this: "the 'nice' words you have been using are obviously not coming from a feminine woman who is pleased with this site"
Yes, that is exactly what you said, and you're just contradicting yourself by claiming you didn't say it. Just because I don't speak in a "nice" manner, doesn't mean I'm angry or unfeminine. I have absolutely no idea where you come up with the things you say, which is quite OBVIOUS to me that you're just BSing (is that nice enough for you? I didn't realize this website was designed for children. Sorry for the profanity).
I also wrote I didn't "look through it," not that I didn't look AT it. Looking through it would mean I read everything carefully, which I didn't, because I don't care enough about what some anti-communists have to say.
As for me "getting my facts straight," they are as straight as they can be. You are again trying to avoid my point, mainly because you don't know how to respond to it without showing all the world that you're an ignorant and biased fool.
Please answer my question: how is that if an Asian woman gets double eyelid surgery, it's because she want to look white, but if a white woman gets lip injections or breast implants, she aren't trying to look black? It doesn't matter if it's cosmetic surgery or not, but only that they are doing things to make themselves look like other ethnicities. If a white woman dyes her hair black,straightens their naturally curly hair, or wears black eyeliner to make their eyes look more Asian (http://img.timeinc.net/people/i/2006/stylechannel/blog/060918/scarlett_johannsen_300x400.jpg), why aren't they trying to look more Asian? If a white woman tans (which nearly all of them do) and desires a full bottom, why aren't they trying to look more Latina? If a white woman gets lip injections/wears lip plumping gloss, or gets breast implants, why aren't they trying to look more African-American?
Many people would agree it isn't that they want to look like another ethnicity, but because they just have personal preferences as to what they want physically. It's the same with Asian woman wanting bigger eyes. Larger eyes also represents innocence, and youthfulness is very big in Asian culture.
You also said yourself that black hair is not just an Asian feature, but bigger eyes/double eyelids isn't just a European feature, either.
Again, you're a hypocrite and full of BS. Please go take a shower and wash out your filth.
I also find it completely hilarious that you're actually trying to bring me down by implying that I'm unfeminine. Those measurements I provided you were fake; it just proves how gullible you really are. Even at 5'1 and around 90 lbs., a 30-23-31 body is difficult to find in a female who is over the age of 18, and who doesn't insuffulate cocaine daily. Even if there is such a woman, I wouldn't necessarily call that unfeminine - too thin and petite for YOUR tastes (after all, you like your woman plump and meaty), but not masculine in the least. Her WHR would be around .75, which isn't masculine, anyways.
But you're sooooooo sure of what I look like right? Even if I told you that I have natural blue eyes, light brown hair, light skin, am 5'7 tall, size 24 in. waist, 34B breasts, you would still try to imagine me as a stout brown woman. LOL ahahahahaha
Just because I disagree with you on women you believe to be attractive, doesn't mean that I'm unfeminine looking. Although I would call putting my own picture up on here as desperate and lame, I'll show you a cropped image of the bottom half of my face and you can decide for yourself how masculine the rest of my face must be. http://i9.tinypic.com/4uoqjo2.jpg
I have no problem with you blocking me from your site; I would just have to go find another source of entertainment, but this is YOURS, after all, and you have every right to be angry at those who question your character.
If you are trying to promote natural beauty in women, then you should be choosing the everyday woman. They are women, right? Even these porn stars/glamour models you choose are unrealistic. They are beautiful, but not mainstream. Women, with broader ribcages, or smaller hips, are still WOMEN. They don't look masculine, because they are WOMEN. That's how women look! That IS the woman. Not all women are as curvy or busty as porn models, but that doesn't make them masculine- they're still women. And thats the true woman- what ever she looks like.
What people find attractive is decided by the mainstream media and western philosophies... you are a prime example of this. In fact, if you look into history, many different regions of the world had a totally different view of feminine beauty- some being the opposite of what you site. Parts of the pacific islands actually found women with a more tubular middle, rather than hourglass, attractive. It is all dictated by culture. But a WOMAN, whether she have a big or small ribcage, no curves or lots of curves, is still a WOMAN. Those features are not masculine if a WOMAN has them- they are just the features of a natural woman.
Sarah: The fashion industry is pushing an unhealthy ideal, whereas what I am pushing cannot be acquired by negative health behaviors. There is a big difference. Additionally, most British women are a couple of inches over 5 feet, and are probably not imagining a 5-foot woman when they think of a size zero woman; they are likely imagining fashion models or women close to them in looks since the high status of these models has been responsible for the inference that skinniness is desirable.
I’ve never stated that I was “pleased” with this site of yours, only that it is continually entertaining, mostly in due part to your idiotic rants. Some things can be misinformative as well as entertaining, pea brain.
I never implied that you have been pleased by this site. Besides, your exemplary language clearly shows how entertaining you find this site to be.
In your own words:
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As for the link you sent me, I didn’t even bother looking through it since it obviously is a biased website.
As your statement stands, it would hold true if you didn’t read any of the stuff there.
Do the failures of communism result from dictators not communist leaders implementing it? If only you read what the worldview of unambiguous communist leaders such as Marx and buddies was! But, you won’t bother.
Get your facts about plastic surgery across ethnic groups straight. Your citation-less plastic surgery statistics are useless for reasons already mentioned, namely failing to address the age factor, the male factor, the disposable income factor, etc. The eyelid surgery that is common among Asian women in double eyelid surgery, i.e., creating two creases where only one exists. Look this up; I am not going to bother citing evidence, and I don’t care if you don’t believe me. I have cited a whole bunch of articles from peer-reviewed journals and you have cited none. I am not going to waste my time coming up with more citations since you will dismiss them anyway like you have the previously cited studies. If eye enlargement were the sole purpose, this could be achieved without creating a second crease. Dawn Yang above has undergone a bunch of surgeries, including a nose job that made her nose more prominent, which is not related to trying to get a more feminine look since feminization makes the nose less prominent. On the other hand, what forms of plastic surgery in white women are aimed toward altering ethnic looks? The frequency of lip implants among them is low, surely nothing approaching the frequency of double eyelid surgery among Asian women, and they are often done to counteract the ravages of aging. Similarly, few white women dye their hair black. Since you live in the U.S., you should know that white women who dye their hair black are far exceeded in numbers by those who dye it blonde. In addition, black hair is by no means a non-European feature. Some whites naturally have black hair. It is also very rare for white women to wear eyeliner that gives their eyes a slanted appearance. Hair dyes and eyeliners are also not examples of plastic surgery. To address whether some changes sought are related to feminization or altering ethnic features, you have to look at the frequency of the procedure and what kinds of surgical procedures cluster together. Lip implants are rare among young adult white women and they are not accompanied by other surgical procedures that suggest a desired shift toward any non-European population. Besides, non-European women, too, get face lifts, tummy tucks, etc. You see who is neck deep in bowel movements?
Your body measurements you left using an alias were not 30-22-30, but 30-23-31 at 5-foot-1 and 87-91 pounds (age 17). Doesn’t sound like a joke to me, and is consistent with how well you “appreciate” this site.
I am not attacking Asian women here in any stereotypical manner. This entry has nothing to do with Asian women. You brought them into the picture in reference to a caricature of my arguments, and then Frank joined in.
I have previously explained why I came up with this site:
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A site like this has long been needed; read the FAQ for clarification. I didn’t see anyone come up with it, and since I could come up with it, I did. In addition, if the Gods ask me after my death, “We gave you knowledge; what did you do with it?”...what am I supposed to tell them...that I sat on the knowledge? Answering yes would get me a ticket to Hell. The problem of a dearth of feminine and attractive women among models and beauty pageant contestants, trivial as it is, is not being seriously addressed by others. Why shouldn’t I attempt to solve a challenging problem concerning something that I have been interested in since childhood?
I am under no delusion that your name is Sarah or another alias that you have used. I have no choice but to respond if someone smears my arguments, but there is only so much that I can take. I have banned one person so far and got another person to stop commenting here. If you keep coming up with absurdities or accusing me of racism or other serious negatives, you will have to choose between either of these options, too.
Susie Q.: If you look like Abbie, see a modeling agency ASAP. You could be making big money. If you wait for a couple of years and lose your boyish looks, gay fashion designers will no longer be interested in you and you can basically forget about making it as a fashion model.
k so this girl goes to school with me and i don't know her because she's not in my grade. but everyone thinks that she looks like me and they like call her my twin and whatever but i only wish i could be her, i mean HELLO, she has a modeling contract! plus apparently she's like really cool and she seems nice so Abbie, good luck and i hope that you make it as a model if that's what you want. don't listen to whatever these people say, they don't know what they're talking about!
Gee, don't you think you're also contributing to the insecurities of women with this site of yours?
You're also missing a very big piece of information, which I believe you probably decided not to include on purpose: their height matters in terms of measurements.
For example, size zero female who is 6 feet tall is obviously disportionately masculine; there are very few males who prefer these kind of women. However, a size zero female who is 5 feet tall is more desirable.
Oh by the way Erik, why is it that you even bother trying to argue against those who claim that you are racist? Everything you have said so far would imply that you were. Racism doesn't exclude those who think their race is superior to others, in case you were too stupid to know what the word meant. This is also coming from someone who is half German, as well, but you never see me promoting myself nor my ethnicity, do you? Half this time I've been defending Asian women against your stereotypical attacks on them.
Also, why is that you even created this website? I'm just curious, since you claim to be yourself a "lifetime heterosexual." Could it be that you are actually a homosexual in denial, and that is why you are so obsessed with femininity in women? Trying to prove something, are you?
Erik you are up to your eyebrows in shit, sweetie.
I've never stated that I was "pleased" with this site of yours, only that it is continually entertaining, mostly in due part to your idiotic rants. Some things can be misinformative as well as entertaining, pea brain.
I also never stated I DIDN'T look at the link you provided, but only that I didn't take the time out to thoroughly look into it, only because in the first 10 seconds of clicking on the link, I laughed so hard I almost spat my drink out. That site is as obviously biased as YOUR OWN.
You also don't know ANYTHING about communism if you seriously believe that the political governments who tried it in their own countries were actually putting it to full potential, and not just using it to their own selfish advantage. They were dictators, not communist leaders, and that is the reason why fools like YOU believe communism is such a horrible thing. Of course, there is no reason in me going any further into this since you are incapable of understand or learning anything that creeps away from your ridiculous opinions, my closed-minded little puppy dog :)
So tell me again, why is that you believe when women of other ethnic races other than YOUR OWN get plastic surgery, it's because they want to look like white women, but when white women get plastic surgery, they are just trying to look more feminine? Again, you're so full of shit you probably can't even breathe. Asian women generally get eyelid surgery, and that only occurs in those who have very small eyes. However, white women get face lifts, rhinoplasty, collagen injected into their lips, breast implants, tummy tucks, etc etc. Please help me understand why, you intelligent little expert on beauty, it is that if an Asian woman gets surgery to have bigger eyes, they are trying to look more white, but if a white woman gets collagen injected into their lips, or bigger breasts, they aren't trying to look African-American (according to stereotypes)? Again, you are as dumb as they come. Bigger eyes is a sign of femininity, so if an Asian woman wants bigger eyes, it isn't because they want to look white; it's because they want to look more feminine. Black as well as Hispanic women have big eyes, too, but you don't hear yourself acknowledging that fact, do you? No, because you are a biased asshole. What about white women who dye their hair black, or wear their eyeliner in a slope for more of an almond shape? Do you think they're trying to look more Asian? OF COURSE NOT! But if an Asian woman wants bigger eyes, of COURSE they're trying to look more white! AHAHAHAHA
Again, I can't get anymore entertained at this hour of the day. I should really invest my time wisely so I can be sure to visit this site daily. After all, laughing contributes to good health.
As for my measurements I left under an "alias".. you're joking right? Do you really believe any woman, who isn't a plastic doll, or over the age of 18 would actually have a 30-22-30 body? According to the last time I checked, I wasn't an anorexic coke whore, nor a teenaged girl getting ready for prom. It was a joke you fool, and in me finding more hysterical things to laugh at from pretending to be the shallow, insecure little girls that come and visit your site and actually try to gain your approval, you actually BELIEVED it was serious and said "good luck with your prom" ahahahahaha
Oh and just so you know Erik, Sarah isn't my real name, nor is any other name I've used so far. Why would I feel obliglated to use my real name when this is just some silly site on the internet? And if you really don't want me to keep posting here, then why do you insist in responding to me? Oh wait that's right, you don't respond to everything I ask, just the things you choose to. I have already asked you to find more statistical evidence on plastic surgery around the world, yet you didn't come up with any because you know that you're a liar and you yourself don't even believe the things you say.
I'll be visiting again tomorrow if I can find the time.
Sarah: The “nice” words you have been using are obviously not coming from a feminine woman that is pleased by this site, and in case you have forgotten, you left your measurements, under an alias, in a separate entry.
You declined to even look at the link about Marx I pointed out because you have decided that it must be biased! Some great willingness to learn on your part! Why do you even bother coming back to this site? This site is not going to teach you anything. By the way, the site linked to referenced Marx and cronies in their own words, which help one understand the bankruptcy of their ideology and its subsequent devastation of the world. Fools like you believe that the devastation of communism resulted from its incomplete implementation. Some curious sociopolitical system communism is if it brings about destruction in its incomplete manifestation but would result in peace and prosperity in its complete manifestation!
Your plastic surgery statistics are useless. They presumably include males, elderly individuals, and are affected by the amount of personal disposable income (greater in richer countries). The plastic surgery discussion that you are responding to concerns itself with young adult women, and in the case of Asians it includes numerous instances of ethnic-looks-altering surgeries whereas among young adult white women the surgeries are usually not aimed toward altering ethnic looks; a few exceptions would involve some Southern European women sculpting their noses to look more Northern European. Lip thickening surgery in some white women would be the strongest candidate for ethnic-looks-altering surgery, but the purpose is typically not to alter ethnic looks but to have the lips look more feminine.
Jay: The discussion here is completely off-topic. Please do not worsen it by asking your kinds of questions. Email such questions to me instead.
Frank: I took the trouble of justifying in detail why your first comment here represented a failure to understand the arguments within this site, yet you accuse me of misunderstanding your arguments, passing indeterminate data as factual, unscientific reasoning, inconsistency, circular arguments, misquotation and using discredited sources with no justification whatsoever except for coming up with lame arguments on cheekbones and legs. Amazing! Please do not level serious charges without justifying them.
Now, to address your comment on cheekbones and legs. Nowhere have I argued that “ancestral” equates to ugly or masculine or that “derived” equates to beautiful and feminine. Do you seriously expect someone capable of coming up with this site to imply anything along these lines? To illustrate two examples, male pattern baldness was presumably less frequent/less severe among our primate ancestors, but the derived condition, namely increased frequency/severity of this condition is not in my opinion and presumably most others’, too, more attractive. Similarly, greater nasal bone prominence is the derived condition, yet masculinization also causes more prominent nasals, i.e., no one could argue that a derived feature is necessarily along the lines of a more feminine appearance.
You accuse me of labeling high cheekbones as masculine. Where have I done this? I have said that masculinization results in a higher placement of the cheekbones, the evidence for which is cited on the “feminine vs. masculine” page. You quote a passage from me about leg length variation caused my numerous factors other than variation in sex hormones and thereby relatively longer legs not necessarily implying masculinization, and then insist that a similar reasoning applies to comparisons involving the placement of the cheekbones on the face, and then argue that I am thus being inconsistent by labeling high cheekbones “masculine,” but I have nowhere made this assertion in the first place.
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Here are some other facial features which, using your sort of argument with “high cheekbones”, would be “masculine” - narrow faces, narrow noses, thin lips, narrow chins. In people of similar ethnic background, women have on average (proportionately) broader and rounder faces, shorter and broader noses, fuller lips, and rounder and less prominent chins.
To think that the author of this site would imply your stupid statement! Once again, masculinization causes facial narrowing (shape), but I have nowhere used the cheekbones arguments you accuse me of making to imply than narrow faces are masculine by themselves. Besides, within the same ethnic group, the following shape differences apply: women have narrower noses (not broader noses) and men have wider chins (not narrower WHERE cid= '; see evidence on “feminine vs. masculine” page.
Your assertion that ‘“Survival of the Prettiest – the Science of Beauty”, by Nancy Etcoff, is one of the major texts in the field of the evolutionary psychology of sexual attraction’ is laughable. I read this book shortly after it came out. Etcoff has compiled tidbits of data for the layperson. The book has little in terms of a coherent, academic argument. Regarding the attractiveness of “high cheekbones,” it is common for numerous [ignorant] authors to label more horizontally prominent cheekbones as “high” when the height of cheekbones refers to where it vertically sits on the face. Since the female face shape is wider, it should not be surprising that, compared to the female average within an ethnic group, a slight shift toward wider cheekbones (mislabeled “high cheekbones”), wider-spaced eyes, smaller chins and fuller lips, all consistent with above average femininity, are aesthetically preferred around the globe. A salient argument of this website is that most people prefer above average femininity in the looks of women. By the way, I have read Cunnigham’s paper, too.
A clarifying comparison:
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The more masculine woman is shown on the left. Her face is narrower (shape) and her cheekbones are less horizontally prominent and sit higher on the face.
Please do not misrepresent my arguments or come up with straw men, and justify all of your accusations. Show evidence that you are an evolutionary biologist!
Kyle Morgan: The social environment obviously plays a role in shaping what appeals to people, but its impact varies across individuals. The example of a number of girls and women ending up believing that attractiveness lies in the typical skinniness of high-fashion models is a prominent example of the influence of the social environment within this site. For additional examples, see this entry addressing “cultural differences and beauty” and the issue of obesity that follows it.
Dorian Gray / Ron / The Hedgehog: Do not leave silly comments, let alone comments completely unrelated to an entry.
Andy: What I wrote should be clear. Take an average nose and make it larger, and beyond a point it will look worse. Alternatively, if an average nose is shrinked, beyond a point it will look worse. See this. It is not a good idea for you to repeatedly leave trivial comments and questions under multiple aliases. Leave the comments space for more serious comments. Compile a list of trvial comments and questions that you may have and email them to me.
Riann: So describing a woman who looks mannish or like a drag queen or a man with fake breasts as such is “bashing”? Women with the aforementioned looks will not be pleased with your interpretation since your statement implies that you regard these looks as stigmatizing, negative or undesirable. This site doesn’t argue that the aforementioned looks are undesirable per se, but that most people prefer above average femininity in the looks of women and consider the aforementioned looks in women undesirable, but not obviously a minority such as gay fashion designers. The latter has to be pointed out if one is to understand how masculinized women have ended up as top-ranked models. If you don’t like this, so be it. I can’t please everyone.
Your comment mentions “female ideal,” not “feminine ideal.” The current “female ideal” being skinny and masculine, how can striving for a skinny and masculine “female ideal” correspond to health? If you have data showing that striving for a feminine beauty ideal does not correspond to health, then you are talking, and I will be very interested in it.
To bring feminine beauty into the limelight, feminine and attractive women need to be contrasted with masculinized fashion models, and it is inevitable that most people will see the masculinized models as less aesthetically desirable. There is no way to sugarcoat this or perhaps there is but it is beyond me because writing is not my forte and English is not my native language.
I find Karolina and the other model attractive. I like models who are thin etc like Heidi Klum and Karolina Kurkova, just as much as girls with a round figure with large breasts and ass.
They are 2 different types of builds, both, for me, equally attractive!
In your very first post in reply to mine, at one point you clearly misunderstood the point I was making. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and apologized that my post perhaps was unclear.
However, you continue to misunderstand points I have been making. At least your answers seem to indicate that you do.
Since I have no wish to misrepresent your views, I deliberately couched my posts in such a way as to give you every opportunity to prove that I am attacking a "straw man". However each time you have replied in such a way as to reinforce still further the picture I have of your basic beliefs.
I don’t have much time or opportunity to spend time on your site except intermittently. I have now found time to re-visit your posts. And re-reading your posts show that there are even more occasions on which you have seemingly misunderstood what I was saying. I haven’t time to deal with them now, so I will post about them later.
On the actual evidence, you are sometimes right. But most often is a situation, very common in anthropology and archaeology, where the facts are as yet indeterminate. Yet you regard any indeterminate fact which supports your theory as absolutely certain.
But my main objection is to your methods of interpretation. I have no objection to anyone arguing a case from a biased basis – provided it is done in a proper rational scientific manner. After all, we are all biased to some degree.
However a very common tendency around the fringes of science is for a bias, caused by a deeply held personal belief, to so affect the interpretation and discussion of a topic, that it can no longer be considered properly scientific. The effects of this can be various. [1] Inconsistency of interpretation or emphasis (from a scientific viewpoint. [2] Circular arguments. [3] Misquotation of sources, or use of discredited sources. I find traces of all three in your posts, but especially the first.
When comparing your interpretation of many pieces of evidence, you are very inconsistent – from a scientific viewpoint. But you are totally consistent – from the viewpoint of your particular theories about female beauty, and about geographical variation in this due to supposed "ancestral" (ugly, masculine) and "derived" (beautiful, feminine) features.
You already showed this in your reply to my very first post.
I had noticed that you were keen on labelling certain features such as "high cheekbones" as masculine. It is clear from your photos of "attractive women" that the women you find attractive don’t have high cheekbones. This would also fit in with your thesis of the aesthetic superiority of white women, since on a global scale, caucasoids do not on average have particularly high cheekbones, although certain individuals do, including quite a few leading film stars and models.
I decided to test you out with a physical feature which is similarly more pronounced in males than in females, but is one which you obviously think of as feminine, namely long legs. Again it is clear from your "attractive women" that you find long legs attractive. Again, although caucasoids are not the longest-legged group on the planet, they are clearly on average longer legged than (East) Asians, which seems to be your main concern here. I expected you wouldn’t accept long legs on women as masculine, and of course you didn’t.
You wrote "Just because men have relatively longer legs than women does not make long legs a masculine characteristic since relative leg length varies more within a sex than between the sexes and thereby one could end up with long legs as a result of factors other than sex hormones and their receptors."
You make my point for me! For exactly the same could be said about high cheekbones! Substitute "higher/high cheekbones" and "relative development of cheekbones" at the relevant points in your reply, and it would apply just as much. In fact it would apply even more strongly, as of all the physical features of the human organism, the face is the most subtle and complex, much more so than the legs. Hence the "height" of the cheekbones are the result of at least as many factors as leg length – and probably many more. So if "long legs=masculine" does not hold up – and I actually don’t believe that it does! – then your "high cheekbones=masculine" is even more dubious.
Here are some other facial features which, using your sort of argument with "high cheekbones", would be "masculine" - narrow faces, narrow noses, thin lips, narrow chins. In people of similar ethnic background, women have on average (proportionately) broader and rounder faces, shorter and broader noses, fuller lips, and rounder and less prominent chins.
"Survival of the Prettiest – the Science of Beauty", by Nancy Etcoff, is one of the major texts in the field of the evolutionary psychology of sexual attraction. Etcoff points out that high cheekbones are actually pretty worldwide in being regarded as attractive in women, and that many women use make-up to accentuate them. "…psychologist Michael Cunningham found that beautiful Asian, Hispanic, Afro-Caribbean, and Caucasian women had large, widely-spaced eyes, high cheekbones, small chins, and full lips." I think I can predict which of these features you would accept as "feminine", and which you wouldn’t.
Because, while inconsistent scientifically, you are totally consistent from the basis of your personal preferences and your theories about feminine beauty. You don’t like high cheekbones, which are of course not particularly caucasoid, let alone Northern European, and you do like long legs, which are more characteristic of your supreme feminine idols.
Now I personally think that the very long legs of quite a number of white, and even more black, women look rather too "masculine", especially when they are often associated with skinny ankles contrasting with large, bony feet. But I have absolutely no quarrel with those who like such long legs. I don’t think it’s because they are wrong, have poor taste, or are gay! I have no intention of trying to convert them to my viewpoint – as it’s purely a matter of personal taste. Nor do I wish to brand such long legs as "masculine", as if my subjective preferences somehow were the same as objective reality. I wouldn’t have the hubris.
Erik what do you think of the actress kelly brook? is she feminine i read somewhere that she has the perfect hourglass figure. Also what do you think of her face do you find it feminine?
The guy puts his spank bank online & calls it research. F'ing genius, man.
You've inspired me to do a study of what I believe is a general decline in labia tautness amongst the modern female population...and since my schlong's diameter has remained remarkably constant throughout the years, I think it is the perfect vehicle with which to measure the labial elasticity.
Is it me or do more & more chicks out there have cooches like mayonnaise jars? I'm going to find out!
By the way, I am heterosexual, if it matters... and while I don't prefer the appearance of most fashion models, I do prefer the athletic-build on women, in person and in pictures. I wonder how much of that is learned and how much of the preferences are "genetic", if you will.
I agree that Adriana Lima can look masculine, along with most fashion models, but you weaken your argument when you compare her with very average looking Slavic girls who have ugly faces. Ex. Gigi from Domai has ugly deepset eyes, an oversize nose, and protruding teeth!!
Whatever agreement I had with you is killed when I see your ugly examples...it's sad that you write so well, then you refute yourself with these pics.
Actually it is bashing. My sister is sometimes termed "drag queen" or mannish because of her broad shoulders and boy does she ever wish she could trade bodies with me. It's one thing to say "she has masculine looking shoulders/face" but terming someone drag queen? It is simply not necessary.
I never once said that feminine health/female health was about being unhealthily thin and masculine and contrary to what you may think, evidence points in a moderate direction from many different leading researchers. If your waist circumference is 70% of your hips, that is considered the ideal healthy waist-to-hip ratio all across the board-- even if you don't have an hourglass figure. If you do not have excess fat and are within the "fit" range of body fat analysis, you are considered healthy regardless of an hourglass figure.
My point here is, I do not think that your site is being necessarily open to the idea that women can still be healthy without having an hourglass figure. You already know that but the way you choose to portray your views on this site will continue to elicit the negative responses from women that is already has, and will continue to do so. There is a better way to make that contrast.
Melody: I agree that women, regardless of how masculine or feminine their physical appearance is or how curvy or slender they are, are all women. However, there are a lot of people who prefer physical features in women that are molded in a developmental environment of somewhat above average estrogen levels and somewhat below average androgen levels. I believe that such individuals should have the opportunities to appreciate the female form they like, something that is also ideally suited for modeling purposes in an alternative fashion industry. There is definitely scope for using ordinary-looking women as models for selling clothes, though this is unlikely to be a high-profile endeavor. In my estimation, there should be two alternative fashion industries, one using feminine and attractive women to undermine the gay-dominated one and the other using ordinary-looking/mildly pleasant models for women neither pleased by the use of skinny women nor feminine beauty for modeling purposes. I will have more to say on this later.
I have largely avoided using porn stars, and if I am successful in the long run, I will not have to use nude models so much, either, and things will become more mainstream. Beauty is not entirely dictated by culture; there are intrinsic elements, too.
*she isn't trying to look black.
Typo.
At 8:19 AM you posted this: "the 'nice' words you have been using are obviously not coming from a feminine woman who is pleased with this site"
Yes, that is exactly what you said, and you're just contradicting yourself by claiming you didn't say it. Just because I don't speak in a "nice" manner, doesn't mean I'm angry or unfeminine. I have absolutely no idea where you come up with the things you say, which is quite OBVIOUS to me that you're just BSing (is that nice enough for you? I didn't realize this website was designed for children. Sorry for the profanity).
I also wrote I didn't "look through it," not that I didn't look AT it. Looking through it would mean I read everything carefully, which I didn't, because I don't care enough about what some anti-communists have to say.
As for me "getting my facts straight," they are as straight as they can be. You are again trying to avoid my point, mainly because you don't know how to respond to it without showing all the world that you're an ignorant and biased fool.
Please answer my question: how is that if an Asian woman gets double eyelid surgery, it's because she want to look white, but if a white woman gets lip injections or breast implants, she aren't trying to look black? It doesn't matter if it's cosmetic surgery or not, but only that they are doing things to make themselves look like other ethnicities. If a white woman dyes her hair black,straightens their naturally curly hair, or wears black eyeliner to make their eyes look more Asian (http://img.timeinc.net/people/i/2006/stylechannel/blog/060918/scarlett_johannsen_300x400.jpg), why aren't they trying to look more Asian? If a white woman tans (which nearly all of them do) and desires a full bottom, why aren't they trying to look more Latina? If a white woman gets lip injections/wears lip plumping gloss, or gets breast implants, why aren't they trying to look more African-American?
Many people would agree it isn't that they want to look like another ethnicity, but because they just have personal preferences as to what they want physically. It's the same with Asian woman wanting bigger eyes. Larger eyes also represents innocence, and youthfulness is very big in Asian culture.
You also said yourself that black hair is not just an Asian feature, but bigger eyes/double eyelids isn't just a European feature, either.
Again, you're a hypocrite and full of BS. Please go take a shower and wash out your filth.
I also find it completely hilarious that you're actually trying to bring me down by implying that I'm unfeminine. Those measurements I provided you were fake; it just proves how gullible you really are. Even at 5'1 and around 90 lbs., a 30-23-31 body is difficult to find in a female who is over the age of 18, and who doesn't insuffulate cocaine daily. Even if there is such a woman, I wouldn't necessarily call that unfeminine - too thin and petite for YOUR tastes (after all, you like your woman plump and meaty), but not masculine in the least. Her WHR would be around .75, which isn't masculine, anyways.
But you're sooooooo sure of what I look like right? Even if I told you that I have natural blue eyes, light brown hair, light skin, am 5'7 tall, size 24 in. waist, 34B breasts, you would still try to imagine me as a stout brown woman. LOL ahahahahaha
Just because I disagree with you on women you believe to be attractive, doesn't mean that I'm unfeminine looking. Although I would call putting my own picture up on here as desperate and lame, I'll show you a cropped image of the bottom half of my face and you can decide for yourself how masculine the rest of my face must be.
http://i9.tinypic.com/4uoqjo2.jpg
I have no problem with you blocking me from your site; I would just have to go find another source of entertainment, but this is YOURS, after all, and you have every right to be angry at those who question your character.
Have a nice day now, Erik ;)
If you are trying to promote natural beauty in women, then you should be choosing the everyday woman. They are women, right? Even these porn stars/glamour models you choose are unrealistic. They are beautiful, but not mainstream. Women, with broader ribcages, or smaller hips, are still WOMEN. They don't look masculine, because they are WOMEN. That's how women look! That IS the woman. Not all women are as curvy or busty as porn models, but that doesn't make them masculine- they're still women. And thats the true woman- what ever she looks like.
What people find attractive is decided by the mainstream media and western philosophies... you are a prime example of this. In fact, if you look into history, many different regions of the world had a totally different view of feminine beauty- some being the opposite of what you site. Parts of the pacific islands actually found women with a more tubular middle, rather than hourglass, attractive. It is all dictated by culture. But a WOMAN, whether she have a big or small ribcage, no curves or lots of curves, is still a WOMAN. Those features are not masculine if a WOMAN has them- they are just the features of a natural woman.
Sarah: The fashion industry is pushing an unhealthy ideal, whereas what I am pushing cannot be acquired by negative health behaviors. There is a big difference. Additionally, most British women are a couple of inches over 5 feet, and are probably not imagining a 5-foot woman when they think of a size zero woman; they are likely imagining fashion models or women close to them in looks since the high status of these models has been responsible for the inference that skinniness is desirable.
Sarah:
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I never implied that you have been pleased by this site. Besides, your exemplary language clearly shows how entertaining you find this site to be.
In your own words:
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As your statement stands, it would hold true if you didn’t read any of the stuff there.
Do the failures of communism result from dictators not communist leaders implementing it? If only you read what the worldview of unambiguous communist leaders such as Marx and buddies was! But, you won’t bother.
Get your facts about plastic surgery across ethnic groups straight. Your citation-less plastic surgery statistics are useless for reasons already mentioned, namely failing to address the age factor, the male factor, the disposable income factor, etc. The eyelid surgery that is common among Asian women in double eyelid surgery, i.e., creating two creases where only one exists. Look this up; I am not going to bother citing evidence, and I don’t care if you don’t believe me. I have cited a whole bunch of articles from peer-reviewed journals and you have cited none. I am not going to waste my time coming up with more citations since you will dismiss them anyway like you have the previously cited studies. If eye enlargement were the sole purpose, this could be achieved without creating a second crease. Dawn Yang above has undergone a bunch of surgeries, including a nose job that made her nose more prominent, which is not related to trying to get a more feminine look since feminization makes the nose less prominent. On the other hand, what forms of plastic surgery in white women are aimed toward altering ethnic looks? The frequency of lip implants among them is low, surely nothing approaching the frequency of double eyelid surgery among Asian women, and they are often done to counteract the ravages of aging. Similarly, few white women dye their hair black. Since you live in the U.S., you should know that white women who dye their hair black are far exceeded in numbers by those who dye it blonde. In addition, black hair is by no means a non-European feature. Some whites naturally have black hair. It is also very rare for white women to wear eyeliner that gives their eyes a slanted appearance. Hair dyes and eyeliners are also not examples of plastic surgery. To address whether some changes sought are related to feminization or altering ethnic features, you have to look at the frequency of the procedure and what kinds of surgical procedures cluster together. Lip implants are rare among young adult white women and they are not accompanied by other surgical procedures that suggest a desired shift toward any non-European population. Besides, non-European women, too, get face lifts, tummy tucks, etc. You see who is neck deep in bowel movements?
Your body measurements you left using an alias were not 30-22-30, but 30-23-31 at 5-foot-1 and 87-91 pounds (age 17). Doesn’t sound like a joke to me, and is consistent with how well you “appreciate” this site.
I am not attacking Asian women here in any stereotypical manner. This entry has nothing to do with Asian women. You brought them into the picture in reference to a caricature of my arguments, and then Frank joined in.
I have previously explained why I came up with this site:
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I am under no delusion that your name is Sarah or another alias that you have used. I have no choice but to respond if someone smears my arguments, but there is only so much that I can take. I have banned one person so far and got another person to stop commenting here. If you keep coming up with absurdities or accusing me of racism or other serious negatives, you will have to choose between either of these options, too.
Susie Q.: If you look like Abbie, see a modeling agency ASAP. You could be making big money. If you wait for a couple of years and lose your boyish looks, gay fashion designers will no longer be interested in you and you can basically forget about making it as a fashion model.
k so this girl goes to school with me and i don't know her because she's not in my grade. but everyone thinks that she looks like me and they like call her my twin and whatever but i only wish i could be her, i mean HELLO, she has a modeling contract! plus apparently she's like really cool and she seems nice so Abbie, good luck and i hope that you make it as a model if that's what you want. don't listen to whatever these people say, they don't know what they're talking about!
One more thing
http://surgery.org/public/photos/eyelid_surgery
I'm sure those people who decided to get eyelid surgery wanted to look "more European" right? AHAHAHHAHAHAHA
Gee, don't you think you're also contributing to the insecurities of women with this site of yours?
You're also missing a very big piece of information, which I believe you probably decided not to include on purpose: their height matters in terms of measurements.
For example, size zero female who is 6 feet tall is obviously disportionately masculine; there are very few males who prefer these kind of women. However, a size zero female who is 5 feet tall is more desirable.
Oh by the way Erik, why is it that you even bother trying to argue against those who claim that you are racist? Everything you have said so far would imply that you were. Racism doesn't exclude those who think their race is superior to others, in case you were too stupid to know what the word meant. This is also coming from someone who is half German, as well, but you never see me promoting myself nor my ethnicity, do you? Half this time I've been defending Asian women against your stereotypical attacks on them.
Also, why is that you even created this website? I'm just curious, since you claim to be yourself a "lifetime heterosexual." Could it be that you are actually a homosexual in denial, and that is why you are so obsessed with femininity in women? Trying to prove something, are you?
Erik you are up to your eyebrows in shit, sweetie.
I've never stated that I was "pleased" with this site of yours, only that it is continually entertaining, mostly in due part to your idiotic rants. Some things can be misinformative as well as entertaining, pea brain.
I also never stated I DIDN'T look at the link you provided, but only that I didn't take the time out to thoroughly look into it, only because in the first 10 seconds of clicking on the link, I laughed so hard I almost spat my drink out. That site is as obviously biased as YOUR OWN.
You also don't know ANYTHING about communism if you seriously believe that the political governments who tried it in their own countries were actually putting it to full potential, and not just using it to their own selfish advantage. They were dictators, not communist leaders, and that is the reason why fools like YOU believe communism is such a horrible thing. Of course, there is no reason in me going any further into this since you are incapable of understand or learning anything that creeps away from your ridiculous opinions, my closed-minded little puppy dog :)
So tell me again, why is that you believe when women of other ethnic races other than YOUR OWN get plastic surgery, it's because they want to look like white women, but when white women get plastic surgery, they are just trying to look more feminine? Again, you're so full of shit you probably can't even breathe. Asian women generally get eyelid surgery, and that only occurs in those who have very small eyes. However, white women get face lifts, rhinoplasty, collagen injected into their lips, breast implants, tummy tucks, etc etc. Please help me understand why, you intelligent little expert on beauty, it is that if an Asian woman gets surgery to have bigger eyes, they are trying to look more white, but if a white woman gets collagen injected into their lips, or bigger breasts, they aren't trying to look African-American (according to stereotypes)? Again, you are as dumb as they come. Bigger eyes is a sign of femininity, so if an Asian woman wants bigger eyes, it isn't because they want to look white; it's because they want to look more feminine. Black as well as Hispanic women have big eyes, too, but you don't hear yourself acknowledging that fact, do you? No, because you are a biased asshole. What about white women who dye their hair black, or wear their eyeliner in a slope for more of an almond shape? Do you think they're trying to look more Asian? OF COURSE NOT! But if an Asian woman wants bigger eyes, of COURSE they're trying to look more white! AHAHAHAHA
Again, I can't get anymore entertained at this hour of the day. I should really invest my time wisely so I can be sure to visit this site daily. After all, laughing contributes to good health.
As for my measurements I left under an "alias".. you're joking right? Do you really believe any woman, who isn't a plastic doll, or over the age of 18 would actually have a 30-22-30 body? According to the last time I checked, I wasn't an anorexic coke whore, nor a teenaged girl getting ready for prom. It was a joke you fool, and in me finding more hysterical things to laugh at from pretending to be the shallow, insecure little girls that come and visit your site and actually try to gain your approval, you actually BELIEVED it was serious and said "good luck with your prom" ahahahahaha
Oh and just so you know Erik, Sarah isn't my real name, nor is any other name I've used so far. Why would I feel obliglated to use my real name when this is just some silly site on the internet? And if you really don't want me to keep posting here, then why do you insist in responding to me? Oh wait that's right, you don't respond to everything I ask, just the things you choose to. I have already asked you to find more statistical evidence on plastic surgery around the world, yet you didn't come up with any because you know that you're a liar and you yourself don't even believe the things you say.
I'll be visiting again tomorrow if I can find the time.
Sarah: The “nice” words you have been using are obviously not coming from a feminine woman that is pleased by this site, and in case you have forgotten, you left your measurements, under an alias, in a separate entry.
You declined to even look at the link about Marx I pointed out because you have decided that it must be biased! Some great willingness to learn on your part! Why do you even bother coming back to this site? This site is not going to teach you anything. By the way, the site linked to referenced Marx and cronies in their own words, which help one understand the bankruptcy of their ideology and its subsequent devastation of the world. Fools like you believe that the devastation of communism resulted from its incomplete implementation. Some curious sociopolitical system communism is if it brings about destruction in its incomplete manifestation but would result in peace and prosperity in its complete manifestation!
Your plastic surgery statistics are useless. They presumably include males, elderly individuals, and are affected by the amount of personal disposable income (greater in richer countries). The plastic surgery discussion that you are responding to concerns itself with young adult women, and in the case of Asians it includes numerous instances of ethnic-looks-altering surgeries whereas among young adult white women the surgeries are usually not aimed toward altering ethnic looks; a few exceptions would involve some Southern European women sculpting their noses to look more Northern European. Lip thickening surgery in some white women would be the strongest candidate for ethnic-looks-altering surgery, but the purpose is typically not to alter ethnic looks but to have the lips look more feminine.
Jay: The discussion here is completely off-topic. Please do not worsen it by asking your kinds of questions. Email such questions to me instead.
Frank: I took the trouble of justifying in detail why your first comment here represented a failure to understand the arguments within this site, yet you accuse me of misunderstanding your arguments, passing indeterminate data as factual, unscientific reasoning, inconsistency, circular arguments, misquotation and using discredited sources with no justification whatsoever except for coming up with lame arguments on cheekbones and legs. Amazing! Please do not level serious charges without justifying them.
Now, to address your comment on cheekbones and legs. Nowhere have I argued that “ancestral” equates to ugly or masculine or that “derived” equates to beautiful and feminine. Do you seriously expect someone capable of coming up with this site to imply anything along these lines? To illustrate two examples, male pattern baldness was presumably less frequent/less severe among our primate ancestors, but the derived condition, namely increased frequency/severity of this condition is not in my opinion and presumably most others’, too, more attractive. Similarly, greater nasal bone prominence is the derived condition, yet masculinization also causes more prominent nasals, i.e., no one could argue that a derived feature is necessarily along the lines of a more feminine appearance.
You accuse me of labeling high cheekbones as masculine. Where have I done this? I have said that masculinization results in a higher placement of the cheekbones, the evidence for which is cited on the “feminine vs. masculine” page. You quote a passage from me about leg length variation caused my numerous factors other than variation in sex hormones and thereby relatively longer legs not necessarily implying masculinization, and then insist that a similar reasoning applies to comparisons involving the placement of the cheekbones on the face, and then argue that I am thus being inconsistent by labeling high cheekbones “masculine,” but I have nowhere made this assertion in the first place.
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To think that the author of this site would imply your stupid statement! Once again, masculinization causes facial narrowing (shape), but I have nowhere used the cheekbones arguments you accuse me of making to imply than narrow faces are masculine by themselves. Besides, within the same ethnic group, the following shape differences apply: women have narrower noses (not broader noses) and men have wider chins (not narrower WHERE cid= '; see evidence on “feminine vs. masculine” page.
Your assertion that ‘“Survival of the Prettiest – the Science of Beauty”, by Nancy Etcoff, is one of the major texts in the field of the evolutionary psychology of sexual attraction’ is laughable. I read this book shortly after it came out. Etcoff has compiled tidbits of data for the layperson. The book has little in terms of a coherent, academic argument. Regarding the attractiveness of “high cheekbones,” it is common for numerous [ignorant] authors to label more horizontally prominent cheekbones as “high” when the height of cheekbones refers to where it vertically sits on the face. Since the female face shape is wider, it should not be surprising that, compared to the female average within an ethnic group, a slight shift toward wider cheekbones (mislabeled “high cheekbones”), wider-spaced eyes, smaller chins and fuller lips, all consistent with above average femininity, are aesthetically preferred around the globe. A salient argument of this website is that most people prefer above average femininity in the looks of women. By the way, I have read Cunnigham’s paper, too.
A clarifying comparison:
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Please do not misrepresent my arguments or come up with straw men, and justify all of your accusations. Show evidence that you are an evolutionary biologist!
Kyle Morgan: The social environment obviously plays a role in shaping what appeals to people, but its impact varies across individuals. The example of a number of girls and women ending up believing that attractiveness lies in the typical skinniness of high-fashion models is a prominent example of the influence of the social environment within this site. For additional examples, see this entry addressing “cultural differences and beauty” and the issue of obesity that follows it.
Dorian Gray / Ron / The Hedgehog: Do not leave silly comments, let alone comments completely unrelated to an entry.
Andy: What I wrote should be clear. Take an average nose and make it larger, and beyond a point it will look worse. Alternatively, if an average nose is shrinked, beyond a point it will look worse. See this. It is not a good idea for you to repeatedly leave trivial comments and questions under multiple aliases. Leave the comments space for more serious comments. Compile a list of trvial comments and questions that you may have and email them to me.
Riann: So describing a woman who looks mannish or like a drag queen or a man with fake breasts as such is “bashing”? Women with the aforementioned looks will not be pleased with your interpretation since your statement implies that you regard these looks as stigmatizing, negative or undesirable. This site doesn’t argue that the aforementioned looks are undesirable per se, but that most people prefer above average femininity in the looks of women and consider the aforementioned looks in women undesirable, but not obviously a minority such as gay fashion designers. The latter has to be pointed out if one is to understand how masculinized women have ended up as top-ranked models. If you don’t like this, so be it. I can’t please everyone.
Your comment mentions “female ideal,” not “feminine ideal.” The current “female ideal” being skinny and masculine, how can striving for a skinny and masculine “female ideal” correspond to health? If you have data showing that striving for a feminine beauty ideal does not correspond to health, then you are talking, and I will be very interested in it.
To bring feminine beauty into the limelight, feminine and attractive women need to be contrasted with masculinized fashion models, and it is inevitable that most people will see the masculinized models as less aesthetically desirable. There is no way to sugarcoat this or perhaps there is but it is beyond me because writing is not my forte and English is not my native language.
I find Karolina and the other model attractive. I like models who are thin etc like Heidi Klum and Karolina Kurkova, just as much as girls with a round figure with large breasts and ass.
They are 2 different types of builds, both, for me, equally attractive!
Erik
In your very first post in reply to mine, at one point you clearly misunderstood the point I was making. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and apologized that my post perhaps was unclear.
However, you continue to misunderstand points I have been making. At least your answers seem to indicate that you do.
Since I have no wish to misrepresent your views, I deliberately couched my posts in such a way as to give you every opportunity to prove that I am attacking a "straw man". However each time you have replied in such a way as to reinforce still further the picture I have of your basic beliefs.
I don’t have much time or opportunity to spend time on your site except intermittently. I have now found time to re-visit your posts. And re-reading your posts show that there are even more occasions on which you have seemingly misunderstood what I was saying. I haven’t time to deal with them now, so I will post about them later.
On the actual evidence, you are sometimes right. But most often is a situation, very common in anthropology and archaeology, where the facts are as yet indeterminate. Yet you regard any indeterminate fact which supports your theory as absolutely certain.
But my main objection is to your methods of interpretation. I have no objection to anyone arguing a case from a biased basis – provided it is done in a proper rational scientific manner. After all, we are all biased to some degree.
However a very common tendency around the fringes of science is for a bias, caused by a deeply held personal belief, to so affect the interpretation and discussion of a topic, that it can no longer be considered properly scientific. The effects of this can be various. [1] Inconsistency of interpretation or emphasis (from a scientific viewpoint. [2] Circular arguments. [3] Misquotation of sources, or use of discredited sources. I find traces of all three in your posts, but especially the first.
When comparing your interpretation of many pieces of evidence, you are very inconsistent – from a scientific viewpoint. But you are totally consistent – from the viewpoint of your particular theories about female beauty, and about geographical variation in this due to supposed "ancestral" (ugly, masculine) and "derived" (beautiful, feminine) features.
You already showed this in your reply to my very first post.
I had noticed that you were keen on labelling certain features such as "high cheekbones" as masculine. It is clear from your photos of "attractive women" that the women you find attractive don’t have high cheekbones. This would also fit in with your thesis of the aesthetic superiority of white women, since on a global scale, caucasoids do not on average have particularly high cheekbones, although certain individuals do, including quite a few leading film stars and models.
I decided to test you out with a physical feature which is similarly more pronounced in males than in females, but is one which you obviously think of as feminine, namely long legs. Again it is clear from your "attractive women" that you find long legs attractive. Again, although caucasoids are not the longest-legged group on the planet, they are clearly on average longer legged than (East) Asians, which seems to be your main concern here. I expected you wouldn’t accept long legs on women as masculine, and of course you didn’t.
You wrote "Just because men have relatively longer legs than women does not make long legs a masculine characteristic since relative leg length varies more within a sex than between the sexes and thereby one could end up with long legs as a result of factors other than sex hormones and their receptors."
You make my point for me! For exactly the same could be said about high cheekbones! Substitute "higher/high cheekbones" and "relative development of cheekbones" at the relevant points in your reply, and it would apply just as much. In fact it would apply even more strongly, as of all the physical features of the human organism, the face is the most subtle and complex, much more so than the legs. Hence the "height" of the cheekbones are the result of at least as many factors as leg length – and probably many more. So if "long legs=masculine" does not hold up – and I actually don’t believe that it does! – then your "high cheekbones=masculine" is even more dubious.
Here are some other facial features which, using your sort of argument with "high cheekbones", would be "masculine" - narrow faces, narrow noses, thin lips, narrow chins. In people of similar ethnic background, women have on average (proportionately) broader and rounder faces, shorter and broader noses, fuller lips, and rounder and less prominent chins.
"Survival of the Prettiest – the Science of Beauty", by Nancy Etcoff, is one of the major texts in the field of the evolutionary psychology of sexual attraction. Etcoff points out that high cheekbones are actually pretty worldwide in being regarded as attractive in women, and that many women use make-up to accentuate them. "…psychologist Michael Cunningham found that beautiful Asian, Hispanic, Afro-Caribbean, and Caucasian women had large, widely-spaced eyes, high cheekbones, small chins, and full lips." I think I can predict which of these features you would accept as "feminine", and which you wouldn’t.
Because, while inconsistent scientifically, you are totally consistent from the basis of your personal preferences and your theories about feminine beauty. You don’t like high cheekbones, which are of course not particularly caucasoid, let alone Northern European, and you do like long legs, which are more characteristic of your supreme feminine idols.
Now I personally think that the very long legs of quite a number of white, and even more black, women look rather too "masculine", especially when they are often associated with skinny ankles contrasting with large, bony feet. But I have absolutely no quarrel with those who like such long legs. I don’t think it’s because they are wrong, have poor taste, or are gay! I have no intention of trying to convert them to my viewpoint – as it’s purely a matter of personal taste. Nor do I wish to brand such long legs as "masculine", as if my subjective preferences somehow were the same as objective reality. I wouldn’t have the hubris.
More to follow if and when I can find the time.
Erik also what do you think of the actress Liv Tyler I have always found her masucline looking am i right?
Erik what do you think of the actress kelly brook? is she feminine i read somewhere that she has the perfect hourglass figure. Also what do you think of her face do you find it feminine?
Erik,
I've got to hand it to you!
The guy puts his spank bank online & calls it research. F'ing genius, man.
You've inspired me to do a study of what I believe is a general decline in labia tautness amongst the modern female population...and since my schlong's diameter has remained remarkably constant throughout the years, I think it is the perfect vehicle with which to measure the labial elasticity.
Is it me or do more & more chicks out there have cooches like mayonnaise jars? I'm going to find out!
Best,
Ron
Erik,
I think you should do a "study" of hetero vs homosexual porn sites.
Also - inquiring minds want to know: How many times did you snap a root while "researching"?
Best,
D. Gray
Erik, I appreciate the candor of your reply.
By the way, I am heterosexual, if it matters... and while I don't prefer the appearance of most fashion models, I do prefer the athletic-build on women, in person and in pictures. I wonder how much of that is learned and how much of the preferences are "genetic", if you will.
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