- This goes hand in hand with mens’ apparent preference for exotic looks.
A great deal of research shows that having average features is a correlate of beauty, and when it comes to deviation from the average, the most powerful correlate of beauty in women is above average femininity. Feminine and very attractive women will easily stand apart from the crowd. The selection of VS models isn’t just because they stand out from the general public.
Danielle:
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- Your masculine vs. feminine page is disgusting and creepy.
To you, but my concern is whether it is factually correct.
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- You appear to be arguing that non-whites should not compete in beauty pageants with whites because their physical features are too different.
The argument is that people of different ethnic backgrounds should not be competing with each other with respect to attractiveness because an objective comparison is not possible.
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- Your argument is bullshit because the sole purpose of those lame ass beauty pageants is not to “pick the hottest piece of ass.” Beauty Pageants usually involve “talent” competitions.
Beauty pageants should be about beauty, not talent or personality. In international beauty pageants, the only way to maximize the focus on beauty is to split them into ethnicity-specific mini-pageants and have a personality contest grand finale for the winners of these mini-pageants.
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- The images you used to compare white ad non-white physical features are also weird and insulting. You obviously took the time to find fuzzy, black and white pictures of tribal women and compared them to modern pictures of white glamour models. You could have found black glamour models for your first page just as easily.
There are African glamour models in the section. So what if there are some pictures of tribals? They are needed to show how the Africans look without European mixture. The pictures are just illustrative examples; my arguments are not based on the pictures and the pictures on the first page of the 7-part section emphasize the necessity of referring to average differences rather than solely relying on pictures.
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- Why couldn’t you have compared those tribal women to some mug shots? You can see the faces clearer in mug shots and they illustrate average white features perfectly.
The first two individuals in your mugshots do not look like women. How can they represent average white women? They also committed crimes unlike the average white woman.
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- We both know why you wouldn’t even put up pictures of average white women. You wanted to be insulting just like you are insulting when you ignore Mexico, central and south america and the Caribbean in your definition of the western world. You are a white supremacist and your site sucks.
I am no white supremacist. Why do you keep coming back to a site that sucks? Am I being insulting by excluding “Mexico, central and south america and the Caribbean” from the Western world? Whereas “Western” is derived from geography, it refers to a specific people and their culture/achievements, namely the Europeans. In the Old World, Europe lies in the West and hence Western is used for European. If the current predominant natives of central Africa were the predominant natives of Europe, there would be nothing “Western” about Europe.
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- I think beauty pageants are dull and a waste of time and money.
I wholeheartedly agree, but this is because they are not genuine beauty pageants. There would be nothing dull about the genuine ones.
Der Wanderer:
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- Let the homos do the designing and let the straights choose the models.
I second that.
i'm just a GIRL: I am not saying that slender women with high cheekbones and not so prominent backsides are unattractive. Attractiveness depends on many factors and women with this combination could range from unattractive to attractive. The premise of this site isn’t that “women should look like this” but it is about appropriate looks for various modeling scenarios and beauty pageant contests marketed to the general public.
OHH:
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- but when it came to marking femenine beauty across cultures, you did a disgusting job of representing non-eurasian cultures.
This is not possible because I have not attempted to show feminine beauty across cultures in the 7-page section you are referring to or anywhere else at this site. The pictures in the 7-page section are supposed to illustrate the argument in the text. It is necessary to show examples of population differences without a focus on showcasing attractiveness to address whether the attractiveness of individuals from different ethnic groups can be objectively compared.
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- I noticed that 90% of your examples of black physiques and faces came from exploration journals from british colonial times. I’m sure you could have found a picture of a senegalese woman that didn’t make her look like a savage. Same goes for your Australian and islander women.
Current pictures don’t show different looks. I will post current pictures at some point.
Anoynymous posting on Oct. 21, 2007: Please use a different alias.
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- However, I still think that “striking” looks have some value in attracting men. To say that men who are attracted to the likes of Penelope Cruz or Amanda Peet have gay tendencies is just unfounded.
I haven’t said this. It should be obvious that with increasing masculinization beyond some point, the odds of nonheterosexual men being attracted to the woman increases.
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- And European men not liking women with dark complexions and robust features?
Where have I said this?
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- There have also been studies done that said women with “slightly” masculinized faces were seen as more faithful by men, though you report that masculinized women are promiscuous (!)
I am interested in these studies. Please point them out.
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However, I will add that it’s important not to say that one race is “less attractive” than another race, for that same reason.
I agree.
Oliana: I don’t know how Ana Beatriz Barros’ backside went from flattened to rounded. Perhaps you can provide links to pictures so that we can see and try to figure it out.
Mixed feelings: To espouse unflattering facts about homosexuals is not to be homophobic. How can patriarchy be responsible for the typical looks of high-fashion models? The feminist perspectives are addressed here. What do you mean that fashion draws from the military also?
Tyler: The nature of feminine and masculine variation described within this site is drawn from the scientific literature, and there in nothing uneducated about it.
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- Women do not have to have massive hips and chubby faces to be beautiful, and having high cheekbones or a slim figure do not make one look like a, and I quote, “transvestite.”
I agree. I haven’t argued to the contrary.
m: Face shapes such as diamond, round, square, oval, etc. are not feminine or masculine by themselves. I personally prefer oval faces in women, but this doesn’t mean that such faces are more feminine.
Haifa Wehbe looks feminine. Beauty spots may look good, depending on placement.
Regarding your point about women no longer being limited to child bearing and doing jobs requiring physical strength, why should this make masculine physical features in women more attractive? Look at video game female characters. The fighters look very feminine. You can see similar examples in the artwork of Sperlonga.
Zonneschin: The factors that make broad face design from Scandinavia to India similar and different from faces in other groups such as East Asians, American Indians and Oceanic populations are shared genetic materials. How the genetics got selected for and spread over such a broad region are different issues.
I also dont find veronikas face very attracive though i would also not class her as ugly, she has a wonderful looking body but her face lessens her overall appeal by a long shot making her look pretty average most times.
I just realized I missed one, but that still only makes 12 that are better than average looks in your attraction section. Is your section about girls better than average looks, or girls that are just average?
Eric, I agree my citations are not as superior as are your peer reviewed journals, and I had 2nd thoughts after I post them. Yeah I know there are feminine tall girls out there, but it may be rare to find them with symmetrical and unique features. My picture of Adriana Lima was to show her lower body being bigger than her top half, not her shoulder blades or her face. Ok saying the women in your attraction section are ugly maybe a bit harsh but their not beautiful and most are average at best. You must admit some do look like trash, like that one you have up in the corner, WTF is up with that? Here are the only ones I find attractive in your section.
Thats only 11 girls I find attractive out of 60 girls in your section, the rest are average at best! I have searched this forum like crazy where is the feedback that people love your attractive woman section? Do you they send you emails or something? I wasn't trying to argue with you about why masculine models are more popular than feminine ones, I was just offering an alternative explanation, your idea about homosexuals picking girls that aesthetically please them maybe right but I doubt it. Why do you use girls from trashy nude model cites, why not use more from magazines that are catered for men but are more classy like FHM or even penthouse? Usually those ones don't have skinny non curvaceous supermodels.
I find it hard to believe you are attracted to these women, I mean come on they look like men in drag, their faces are too elongated.
AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO NOTICED THE DISGUSTING PIMPLES ON THAT GIRLS BUTT CRACK?????? That's really gross and not what I want any woman's rear to look like. It's the girl that is being compared to the beautifully feminine Alessandra Ambrosio at the top.
all women are beautiful, some more than others
i seem to like women and you seem not to or more so you seem to like children.
its not your fault but you should just be happy being who you are and not question other peoples outlooks.
Elle is definatly more attracive, so what if her shoulders are broad and her face are what some my consider "masculine"....Elle has a look which is more striking and the other girl look just like any other chick you see on a daily basis.
Not all women are super curvy, some womens bodies are more regal than others and I find elles body to be more firmer and athletic.
BSP: All countries focused on in the article (USA, Scandinavian nations, Netherlands) are Western and have reasonably good economies. Read the paper for a description of one mechanism by which women with excess body fat in the abdominal region are not providing the optimal womb. Other mechanisms would involve disturbances and genetic transmission of low IQ genetics.
Um yeah...: What is more likely to constitute opinion, my empirical arguments or statements like the following?
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I won’t even comment on your theory about homosexual men and their pedophilic tendencies (not to mention the hardly “credible” sources you listed) because that’s beyond ridiculous and low, and I’m sure you’ll only judge me for thinking so and already have a response worked out for such comments.
If you disagree, cite evidence to counter mine.
Top high-fashion models are the ones most in demand by fashion designers.
Masculinity-femininity can be assessed in an objective manner. Read more of this site, and you will encounter plenty of information. Yes, not all people agree 100% about who is beautiful, but most share a similar preference; start here for evidence.
Emperorjvl: You are still not addressing the right issue. In science there is a saying that one rests on the shoulder of giants, which is to say that prior discoveries pave the way for newer ones. However, this does not mean that it becomes increasingly easier for people of lower intelligence to come up with breakthroughs. The reverse is true. For instance, the development of trigonometry predates the development of non-linear differential equations. People who can handle non-linear differential equations can easily handle trigonometry, but the reverse is not necessarily true. Without the development of numbers and arithmetic, there would be no non-linear differential equations, but it should be obvious that the number of people who can be taught how to count and other arithmetic far exceed the number that can be made to understand non-linear differential equations. It takes increasingly higher intelligence to come up with cutting edge scientific and engineering work as these fields progress.
Isaac Newton was among the leading intellects of his time. If he were a middle aged man in the present, he would presumably be among the leading intellects of the world and would most likely have come up with some breakthroughs, but the breakthroughs that he would have come up with in the present could be understood by/independently arrived at by a smaller proportion of people than the proportion capable of understanding/independently arriving at Newtonian mechanics and basic calculus.
Twisty: I would really like your pictures. Again, if you are concerned about privacy, then blur or remove your face before sending them. You asked me to write about girls that are naturally very thin and discrimination/negative comments directed toward them (e.g., remarks that they are anorexic), but you would do a much better job at this than me. Your response will help because I want to make it clear that one shouldn’t be criticizing the models for being thin; they are not at fault, and that people shouldn’t outright ban very thin models because this would deny modeling opportunities to naturally thin women. There are ways that one can make the industry fund random medical exams, especially in the neighborhood of Fashion Week, that assess whether the models are naturally thin or starving themselves. This is the only legislation needed. The industry can use naturally thin models but it cannot force its models to starve to satisfy the thinness requirement.
Here is a passage from Emily Nussbaum in the New Yorker article:
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Yet despite the jockeying for blame—Are the agents responsible? The magazines? The designers? The stylists?—it’s the models who will inevitably be the fall girls, embarrassing the industry when they go one step too far and become thin instead of thin. At times, the issue doesn’t seem to be about food at all. It’s about the discomfort everyone feels when the girls in the gowns become visible, exposing not just their ribs but the strange vulnerability of their lives.
So you need to do your part to help others like you.
Danielle: I didn’t talk about “~unnaturally~ tan skin as opposed to naturally tan skin.” By naturally darker skin I meant genetically darker. Regarding Der Wanderer’s comment, illiteracy and tapeworm infestation are much more common among dark-skinned populations than among whites. So what is racist about his comment?
If there is nothing to debate on this page, then you need to stop commenting. Gigi was posted with Madeline (most of her comments have been left as Sarah) with mind. I am not serious about using her for lingerie modeling. A woman’s hotness is not judged by whether men are willing to sleep with her. Some men have such low standards that you could say that they will sleep with anything.
Steve510: You are wrong about the masculine look in fashion models being an artifact of height. I have shown plenty of feminine and tall women within this site. Within any ethnic group, feminine women will be less common among tall women, but given the resources of the fashion industry, there should be no problems finding a large number of feminine tall women.
I did not say that “high cheekbones are a male quality.” What I said is that masculinization causes a higher placement of cheekbones on the face. Women do indeed have more (horizonatally) prominent cheekbones than men, but their cheekbones are placed lower on the face. The references that I have cited to support these assertions are taken form peer-reviewed journal articles and are far superior to your three citations.
Based on the feedback that I have received, your assessment of most of the women shown in the attractive women section being ugly is very atypical, and I don’t see any need to rename the section.
You reject my argument about gay fashion designers on very weak grounds. Not one of the models you have pointed out are among the top ranked high-fashion models, and none except [borderline] Nicole Linkletter is feminine. Look at the top-50 high fashion models’ pictures when they started modeling (mid-teens or late teens max) and then ask yourself whether I got it wrong. You need to realize that the Next Top Model show is marketed to the general public. It is used by companies to pitch their products to the general public. They are bound to put some feminine women in the show, but they are more likely to be eliminated, and the winner will obtain modeling contracts as promised but she will not necessarily become a big star.
I haven’t described Adriana’s physique as masculine, but more like it being insufficiently feminine for the job. Your picture is inadequate because her face shape is unclear (hair + shadows), and she is standing with her shoulder blades drawn together, making her shoulders look less wide. Whereas hourglass physiques are uncommon, the fashion world has the resources to find women with such bodies and faces that would strongly appeal to most people, but the homosexuals are not interested.
Tom: I do not have pictures of extremely feminine women. Small breasts vs. what you see in the pictures would make a difference regarding whether she is well above average in femininity or extremely feminine. I don’t like Veronika Zemanova’s face, but I don’t find her ugly.
I guess I'm a complete and utter freak then. I'm in my mid-twenties, and I'm on the light end for my hight even by model standards (read, on deaths door by the bmi), and I basically just eat when I'm hungry and stop when I'm full. No drugs or anything either. And I still have a normal bodyfat%. The only explanation is that I have a freakishly 'slight' frame. I'm getting tempted to send in some pics, eric would prolly see my as some amazing museum specimen or something
Erik surely you can guess if veronika zemanova is extremely feminine with her natural breasts, what great difference would the breasts make and what great difference is there between extremely feminine and well above average. Have you an example of an overall extremely feminine woman?
I totally agree with Erik. and I think "Ruth" is misunderstood of Miss malta as miss netherland. the miss netherland is the one with blond hair , not the one with large mouth who looks like male. miss netherland is the most beautiful for me.
Eric, I changed my name to Steve510, ok her chin is a bit big but its not excessively big like Jennifer Annistons chin for her to be classified as masculine. I have to disagree with you about tall women having feminine bodies and faces, not all but most girls above average height are not very curvaceous and thus do have masculine bodies and faces like big square jaws and broad shoulders etc. This is because girls are not meant to be as tall as males, tall height in females is a masculine quality and thats really the main reason why most supermodels have a masculine appearance. Whenever I see a picture of a girl's face with masculine features, I think to my self I bet she is tall, 9 times out of 10 I am right. I really like your site as I thought I was the only one that thought most supermodels looked masculine looking and have never really been attracted to them except Adriana Lima, Josie Maran and a few unknowns. However, I believe your site needs tweaking, for instance you mention that high cheekbones are a male quality, when in fact the opposite is true. Women have higher and more prominent cheekbones than males, thats why male to female transsexuals get cheek implants. Look at these links:
Another thing that I think people are getting confused about on your site is your "attractive" women section. I am a white exclusively heterosexual man who has looked at your attractive women section. With the exception of Katherine Heigl and Charlize Theron and a few others, most of the girls are quite ugly, and I think you know that. I believe your intension was not to promote attractive gorgeous women in this section, but instead promote feminine women, to show examples of women who don't have big square jaws and protruding foreheads. So you should rename your "attractive" women section to "feminine" women, rather than attractive women, as it is clear most of them are not attractive.
On a final note the reason why men may still find models such as Alesandera Ambrosia and Hedi Klum and others attractive, is because their features are not overly masculineized, ie: they don't look like men. Therefore, with the exception of Giselle they are still good enough for us guys to find them attractive because they have not reached the threshold that makes them indistinguishable from men. I personally don't find Alexendra Ambrosia very attractive because I don't like her narrow elongated face. However, I can see how others do find her attractive, as she has perfect symmetrical and unique looking facial features.The reason I don't buy your argument homosexuals choose models that look like boys intentionally is because most of the judges on Americas next top model are homosexuals and most of the girls that win do not look overly masculine to me to be classified as adolescent boys. at least in the face.
Here's a pic with Adriana Lima's figure, she is standing in one place not posing to accentuate the hips, yet she still has a feminine figure and not a masculine one as you proclaim. Granted, its not overly feminine as some of your glamor models but its good enough as her lower half is wider than her top half. Remember, the hourglass figure is the rarest of all body types, so it would be difficult to find someone with an unbelievably beautiful face and an hour glass figure.
BTW I don't see what there is to debate on this page. Gigi is ugly and is unsuitable for life much less modeling. Adriana does her job well and her ~naturally tan~ ass is admired by many white guys. Isn't that enough for you? I mean isn't that the appropriate criteria to judge how hot a woman is? If white guys wanna fuck her then she's *~hawt~*. The end.
Wow Erik! You are not only a "feminine beauty" judge/ anthropologist/homosexologist/delusional asshole but you are also a mind reader and an expert on racism! I had no idea that white people preferred ~unnaturally~ tan skin as opposed to naturally tan skin. I am sure that you have conducted a poll so that you can back up that little ~factoid~. White people use artifical means to get tan skin but they prefer ~unnaturally~ tan skin and Black/Brown people use artificial means to get lighter skin but they prefer ~naturally~ light skin!!!! You are a genius and a psychic Erik! I am glad that the world has you in it so that you can shine the light of knowledge into the darkness!
Der Arschloch sees dark skin and he is reminded of wonderful things like mass illiteracy and tapeworms and that isn't the least bit racist! Good info Erik! I'll take that to heart!
I still think that Arschloch gets warm when he thinks about your kibbles and bits but it is kind of you to break down his complexity of his statement to Stumrabe.
Tom: Veronika Zemanova has well above average femininity, but note that her breasts are not natural. So I would stop short of describing her as extremely feminine. There is nothing masculine about her.
Jose: I didn’t describe Adriana’s face as mannish, but there is an obvious masculine element to it. Your girlfriend, Robyn Chance, is on the muscular side and doesn’t look feminine. I am not calling her manly.
Der Wanderer: Neotenic is the wrong word since it implies retention in the adult of the juvenile features of the ancestral species (which would be apes or something close in our case), but adult humans’ face shape is distinct from apes’ juvenile face shape.
You mentioned swollen bellies due to tapeworm infestation, but the typical reason for the swollen bellies sometimes seen in Third World children is lymph fluid leaking into the abdominal cavity because of inadequate protein intake.
Adrian: If beauty is an opinion, then most people share the same opinion, and regarding women, this boils down to a preference for feminine looks. You have described yourself as a male homosexual. So why bother trying to understand heterosexuals’ preferences? I don’t have to make my site “credible” to homosexuals.
Steve: You are not alone. I have ran into similar comments from people who believed themselves to be the only person to see masculinization and unattractiveness in some heavily promoted models. Anyway, it isn’t just forehead shape, but also the chin, the low-set eyebrows and the cheekbone placement that are contributing to a masculine element in Adriana Lima. The masculine bodies of many VS models are not an artifact of being skinny and tall. I have shown numerous pictures of slender women, many with above average height, that don’t look masculine because their skeletal proportions are feminine (examples).
Sturmrabe: No one is describing Adriana’s looks as those of a male-to-female transsexual’s. Read carefully. And, Der Wanderer never argued that brown skin or non-European features make Adriana look masculine.
Danielle: Der Wanderer used “brown trash” and “fugly brownies” sarcastically in reference to Adrian’s use of “white trash,” and hence Der Wanderer’s comment doesn’t qualify as racist. You have used much worse terminology (e.g., fugbeast and I believe white trash, too). Der Wanderer’s dislike of brown/dark skin is a personal view, and he has explained to some extent why, namely the negatives it reminds him of, which isn’t racist by itself, and the comment doesn’t imply hatred of poor people or those with low IQ. Something disliked is not necessarily hated. You yourself don’t like white skin. I recommend that you look at white people’s backside (most don’t tan it) to see for yourself how super pale they naturally are.
In reference to “super pale skin” (natural white skin color in the absence of blemishes and sun exposure), you said, “Many white people share the same opinion so they must be racist too!” No honey, you got it wrong. The preference among whites is for a tan, not naturally darker skin, but if you look at the preferences of the hundreds of millions of dark people who seek skin lightening, their preference is for naturally lighter skin.
Der Wanderer’s reply to Sturmrabe said that he would prefer my member on his mouth to the twisting of his argument by Sturmrabe. What do you think the “go figure” expression means? It means that the former option is totally unacceptable to him.
Why can’t you stick to a reasonable debate? Der Wanderer’s initial comment was a graphic illustration that is fully relevant to the article, but you, Adrian and Sturmrabe had to steer the discussion toward absurdities!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What a fucking psycho! This dude thinks I don't like "light complexions" when I only said that I don't think that SUPER PALE complexions are very attractive. Many white people share the same opinion so they must be racist too!
The term is "malignant melanoma" Der Arschloch. Google is your friend too. LOL @ your pathetic attempts to insult me. Try again fool! Erik has said that he did not want white supremacists coming to this site with their garbage but I guess all the juicy racist shit on these pages is irresistible to fucktards like you Arschloch. I won't respond to your crap anymore. Have a nice life.
In that case, I couldn't be a "racist" no matter what (It Would Follow By Definition)
You see ... on Teh Internetz nobody knows that ur a (whatever)
Your nazi/racist smears can't stick, you stupid noob. So stop trying.
Anyone with half a brain can see that.
Ringstad:
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Make it below average WHR rather than ideal WHR.
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This is not true. Their faces mostly range from late teens to mid twenties, though there are a few older women.
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Wrong. Pedophilia applies to attraction to pre-pubescents.
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Wrong. Immaturity implies reduced fertility. Heterosexual men most strongly prefer women in their early to mid-twenties. Your complaint is about the faces; there is no way you can say that the physiques of the women in the attractive women section are anything other than those of young adults.
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A great deal of research shows that having average features is a correlate of beauty, and when it comes to deviation from the average, the most powerful correlate of beauty in women is above average femininity. Feminine and very attractive women will easily stand apart from the crowd. The selection of VS models isn’t just because they stand out from the general public.
Danielle:
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To you, but my concern is whether it is factually correct.
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The argument is that people of different ethnic backgrounds should not be competing with each other with respect to attractiveness because an objective comparison is not possible.
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Beauty pageants should be about beauty, not talent or personality. In international beauty pageants, the only way to maximize the focus on beauty is to split them into ethnicity-specific mini-pageants and have a personality contest grand finale for the winners of these mini-pageants.
Quote:
There are African glamour models in the section. So what if there are some pictures of tribals? They are needed to show how the Africans look without European mixture. The pictures are just illustrative examples; my arguments are not based on the pictures and the pictures on the first page of the 7-part section emphasize the necessity of referring to average differences rather than solely relying on pictures.
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The first two individuals in your mugshots do not look like women. How can they represent average white women? They also committed crimes unlike the average white woman.
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I am no white supremacist. Why do you keep coming back to a site that sucks? Am I being insulting by excluding “Mexico, central and south america and the Caribbean” from the Western world? Whereas “Western” is derived from geography, it refers to a specific people and their culture/achievements, namely the Europeans. In the Old World, Europe lies in the West and hence Western is used for European. If the current predominant natives of central Africa were the predominant natives of Europe, there would be nothing “Western” about Europe.
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I wholeheartedly agree, but this is because they are not genuine beauty pageants. There would be nothing dull about the genuine ones.
Der Wanderer:
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I second that.
i'm just a GIRL: I am not saying that slender women with high cheekbones and not so prominent backsides are unattractive. Attractiveness depends on many factors and women with this combination could range from unattractive to attractive. The premise of this site isn’t that “women should look like this” but it is about appropriate looks for various modeling scenarios and beauty pageant contests marketed to the general public.
OHH:
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This is not possible because I have not attempted to show feminine beauty across cultures in the 7-page section you are referring to or anywhere else at this site. The pictures in the 7-page section are supposed to illustrate the argument in the text. It is necessary to show examples of population differences without a focus on showcasing attractiveness to address whether the attractiveness of individuals from different ethnic groups can be objectively compared.
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Current pictures don’t show different looks. I will post current pictures at some point.
Anoynymous posting on Oct. 21, 2007: Please use a different alias.
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I haven’t said this. It should be obvious that with increasing masculinization beyond some point, the odds of nonheterosexual men being attracted to the woman increases.
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Where have I said this?
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I am interested in these studies. Please point them out.
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I agree.
Oliana: I don’t know how Ana Beatriz Barros’ backside went from flattened to rounded. Perhaps you can provide links to pictures so that we can see and try to figure it out.
Mixed feelings: To espouse unflattering facts about homosexuals is not to be homophobic. How can patriarchy be responsible for the typical looks of high-fashion models? The feminist perspectives are addressed here. What do you mean that fashion draws from the military also?
Tyler: The nature of feminine and masculine variation described within this site is drawn from the scientific literature, and there in nothing uneducated about it.
Quote:
I agree. I haven’t argued to the contrary.
m: Face shapes such as diamond, round, square, oval, etc. are not feminine or masculine by themselves. I personally prefer oval faces in women, but this doesn’t mean that such faces are more feminine.
Haifa Wehbe looks feminine. Beauty spots may look good, depending on placement.
Regarding your point about women no longer being limited to child bearing and doing jobs requiring physical strength, why should this make masculine physical features in women more attractive? Look at video game female characters. The fighters look very feminine. You can see similar examples in the artwork of Sperlonga.
Krisa: You posted the same comment elsewhere, and that is where I have partly replied to your comment. I will address the rest over there.
Zonneschin: The factors that make broad face design from Scandinavia to India similar and different from faces in other groups such as East Asians, American Indians and Oceanic populations are shared genetic materials. How the genetics got selected for and spread over such a broad region are different issues.
Erik
I also dont find veronikas face very attracive though i would also not class her as ugly, she has a wonderful looking body but her face lessens her overall appeal by a long shot making her look pretty average most times.
I just realized I missed one, but that still only makes 12 that are better than average looks in your attraction section. Is your section about girls better than average looks, or girls that are just average?
Attractive
http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/callista.2.jpg
Eric, I agree my citations are not as superior as are your peer reviewed journals, and I had 2nd thoughts after I post them. Yeah I know there are feminine tall girls out there, but it may be rare to find them with symmetrical and unique features. My picture of Adriana Lima was to show her lower body being bigger than her top half, not her shoulder blades or her face. Ok saying the women in your attraction section are ugly maybe a bit harsh but their not beautiful and most are average at best. You must admit some do look like trash, like that one you have up in the corner, WTF is up with that? Here are the only ones I find attractive in your section.
http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/nikky.case.1s.jpg
http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/lisa.welch.2.jpg
http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/keeley.hazel.1.jpg
http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/katherine.heigl2.jpg
http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/pamela1.jpg
http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/sharon.clark2.jpg
http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/michaela.1.jpg
http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/maria.a.2.jpg
http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/anna.s.2.jpg
http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/maria.mcbane.1.jpg
http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/sally.todd3.jpg
Thats only 11 girls I find attractive out of 60 girls in your section, the rest are average at best! I have searched this forum like crazy where is the feedback that people love your attractive woman section? Do you they send you emails or something? I wasn't trying to argue with you about why masculine models are more popular than feminine ones, I was just offering an alternative explanation, your idea about homosexuals picking girls that aesthetically please them maybe right but I doubt it. Why do you use girls from trashy nude model cites, why not use more from magazines that are catered for men but are more classy like FHM or even penthouse? Usually those ones don't have skinny non curvaceous supermodels.
I find it hard to believe you are attracted to these women, I mean come on they look like men in drag, their faces are too elongated.
http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/ivy.1.jpg
[url=http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/vt2a.jpg ]http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/vt2a.jpg[/url]
http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/fine.woman.3.jpg
AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO NOTICED THE DISGUSTING PIMPLES ON THAT GIRLS BUTT CRACK?????? That's really gross and not what I want any woman's rear to look like. It's the girl that is being compared to the beautifully feminine Alessandra Ambrosio at the top.
all women are beautiful, some more than others
i seem to like women and you seem not to or more so you seem to like children.
its not your fault but you should just be happy being who you are and not question other peoples outlooks.
Elle is definatly more attracive, so what if her shoulders are broad and her face are what some my consider "masculine"....Elle has a look which is more striking and the other girl look just like any other chick you see on a daily basis.
Not all women are super curvy, some womens bodies are more regal than others and I find elles body to be more firmer and athletic.
BSP: All countries focused on in the article (USA, Scandinavian nations, Netherlands) are Western and have reasonably good economies. Read the paper for a description of one mechanism by which women with excess body fat in the abdominal region are not providing the optimal womb. Other mechanisms would involve disturbances and genetic transmission of low IQ genetics.
Um yeah...: What is more likely to constitute opinion, my empirical arguments or statements like the following?
Quote:
If you disagree, cite evidence to counter mine.
Top high-fashion models are the ones most in demand by fashion designers.
Masculinity-femininity can be assessed in an objective manner. Read more of this site, and you will encounter plenty of information. Yes, not all people agree 100% about who is beautiful, but most share a similar preference; start here for evidence.
Emperorjvl: You are still not addressing the right issue. In science there is a saying that one rests on the shoulder of giants, which is to say that prior discoveries pave the way for newer ones. However, this does not mean that it becomes increasingly easier for people of lower intelligence to come up with breakthroughs. The reverse is true. For instance, the development of trigonometry predates the development of non-linear differential equations. People who can handle non-linear differential equations can easily handle trigonometry, but the reverse is not necessarily true. Without the development of numbers and arithmetic, there would be no non-linear differential equations, but it should be obvious that the number of people who can be taught how to count and other arithmetic far exceed the number that can be made to understand non-linear differential equations. It takes increasingly higher intelligence to come up with cutting edge scientific and engineering work as these fields progress.
Isaac Newton was among the leading intellects of his time. If he were a middle aged man in the present, he would presumably be among the leading intellects of the world and would most likely have come up with some breakthroughs, but the breakthroughs that he would have come up with in the present could be understood by/independently arrived at by a smaller proportion of people than the proportion capable of understanding/independently arriving at Newtonian mechanics and basic calculus.
Twisty: I would really like your pictures. Again, if you are concerned about privacy, then blur or remove your face before sending them. You asked me to write about girls that are naturally very thin and discrimination/negative comments directed toward them (e.g., remarks that they are anorexic), but you would do a much better job at this than me. Your response will help because I want to make it clear that one shouldn’t be criticizing the models for being thin; they are not at fault, and that people shouldn’t outright ban very thin models because this would deny modeling opportunities to naturally thin women. There are ways that one can make the industry fund random medical exams, especially in the neighborhood of Fashion Week, that assess whether the models are naturally thin or starving themselves. This is the only legislation needed. The industry can use naturally thin models but it cannot force its models to starve to satisfy the thinness requirement.
Here is a passage from Emily Nussbaum in the New Yorker article:
Quote:
So you need to do your part to help others like you.
Danielle: I didn’t talk about “~unnaturally~ tan skin as opposed to naturally tan skin.” By naturally darker skin I meant genetically darker. Regarding Der Wanderer’s comment, illiteracy and tapeworm infestation are much more common among dark-skinned populations than among whites. So what is racist about his comment?
If there is nothing to debate on this page, then you need to stop commenting. Gigi was posted with Madeline (most of her comments have been left as Sarah) with mind. I am not serious about using her for lingerie modeling. A woman’s hotness is not judged by whether men are willing to sleep with her. Some men have such low standards that you could say that they will sleep with anything.
Steve510: You are wrong about the masculine look in fashion models being an artifact of height. I have shown plenty of feminine and tall women within this site. Within any ethnic group, feminine women will be less common among tall women, but given the resources of the fashion industry, there should be no problems finding a large number of feminine tall women.
I did not say that “high cheekbones are a male quality.” What I said is that masculinization causes a higher placement of cheekbones on the face. Women do indeed have more (horizonatally) prominent cheekbones than men, but their cheekbones are placed lower on the face. The references that I have cited to support these assertions are taken form peer-reviewed journal articles and are far superior to your three citations.
Based on the feedback that I have received, your assessment of most of the women shown in the attractive women section being ugly is very atypical, and I don’t see any need to rename the section.
You reject my argument about gay fashion designers on very weak grounds. Not one of the models you have pointed out are among the top ranked high-fashion models, and none except [borderline] Nicole Linkletter is feminine. Look at the top-50 high fashion models’ pictures when they started modeling (mid-teens or late teens max) and then ask yourself whether I got it wrong. You need to realize that the Next Top Model show is marketed to the general public. It is used by companies to pitch their products to the general public. They are bound to put some feminine women in the show, but they are more likely to be eliminated, and the winner will obtain modeling contracts as promised but she will not necessarily become a big star.
I haven’t described Adriana’s physique as masculine, but more like it being insufficiently feminine for the job. Your picture is inadequate because her face shape is unclear (hair + shadows), and she is standing with her shoulder blades drawn together, making her shoulders look less wide. Whereas hourglass physiques are uncommon, the fashion world has the resources to find women with such bodies and faces that would strongly appeal to most people, but the homosexuals are not interested.
Tom: I do not have pictures of extremely feminine women. Small breasts vs. what you see in the pictures would make a difference regarding whether she is well above average in femininity or extremely feminine. I don’t like Veronika Zemanova’s face, but I don’t find her ugly.
I guess I'm a complete and utter freak then. I'm in my mid-twenties, and I'm on the light end for my hight even by model standards (read, on deaths door by the bmi), and I basically just eat when I'm hungry and stop when I'm full. No drugs or anything either. And I still have a normal bodyfat%. The only explanation is that I have a freakishly 'slight' frame. I'm getting tempted to send in some pics, eric would prolly see my as some amazing museum specimen or something
SHe's really 'short waisted'. Isn't that masculinization? Her body looks like a chubbier version of mine btw.
erik,
googled more pics of her do you agree she looks absolutely hideous many of her pics due to her breast implants.
Erik surely you can guess if veronika zemanova is extremely feminine with her natural breasts, what great difference would the breasts make and what great difference is there between extremely feminine and well above average. Have you an example of an overall extremely feminine woman?
very disappointed, you posted the pictures to close to each other untill someone on here misunderstood our miss netherland as the ugly miss malta .
I totally agree with Erik. and I think "Ruth" is misunderstood of Miss malta as miss netherland. the miss netherland is the one with blond hair , not the one with large mouth who looks like male. miss netherland is the most beautiful for me.
Eric, I changed my name to Steve510, ok her chin is a bit big but its not excessively big like Jennifer Annistons chin for her to be classified as masculine. I have to disagree with you about tall women having feminine bodies and faces, not all but most girls above average height are not very curvaceous and thus do have masculine bodies and faces like big square jaws and broad shoulders etc. This is because girls are not meant to be as tall as males, tall height in females is a masculine quality and thats really the main reason why most supermodels have a masculine appearance. Whenever I see a picture of a girl's face with masculine features, I think to my self I bet she is tall, 9 times out of 10 I am right. I really like your site as I thought I was the only one that thought most supermodels looked masculine looking and have never really been attracted to them except Adriana Lima, Josie Maran and a few unknowns. However, I believe your site needs tweaking, for instance you mention that high cheekbones are a male quality, when in fact the opposite is true. Women have higher and more prominent cheekbones than males, thats why male to female transsexuals get cheek implants. Look at these links:
http://www.virtualffs.co.uk/male.female%20facial%20differences.htm
http://tgnotwhatyouthink.blogspot.com/2007/10/best-face-forward.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facial_feminization_surgery
Another thing that I think people are getting confused about on your site is your "attractive" women section. I am a white exclusively heterosexual man who has looked at your attractive women section. With the exception of Katherine Heigl and Charlize Theron and a few others, most of the girls are quite ugly, and I think you know that. I believe your intension was not to promote attractive gorgeous women in this section, but instead promote feminine women, to show examples of women who don't have big square jaws and protruding foreheads. So you should rename your "attractive" women section to "feminine" women, rather than attractive women, as it is clear most of them are not attractive.
On a final note the reason why men may still find models such as Alesandera Ambrosia and Hedi Klum and others attractive, is because their features are not overly masculineized, ie: they don't look like men. Therefore, with the exception of Giselle they are still good enough for us guys to find them attractive because they have not reached the threshold that makes them indistinguishable from men. I personally don't find Alexendra Ambrosia very attractive because I don't like her narrow elongated face. However, I can see how others do find her attractive, as she has perfect symmetrical and unique looking facial features.The reason I don't buy your argument homosexuals choose models that look like boys intentionally is because most of the judges on Americas next top model are homosexuals and most of the girls that win do not look overly masculine to me to be classified as adolescent boys. at least in the face.
Feminine Americas next top model winners
Eva Pigford
http://bbs.typhoon.gov.cn//1198288959/Mon_0610/20_2602_ae6739709a6eba3.jpg
Naima Mora
http://bbs.typhoon.gov.cn//1198288959/Mon_0610/20_2602_e01ec44e7039bb0.jpg
Nicole Linkletter
http://bbs.typhoon.gov.cn//1198288959/Mon_0610/20_2602_2fb13380db01671.jpg
Danielle Evans
http://bbs.typhoon.gov.cn//1198288959/Mon_0610/20_2602_5245cc4d20a24e8.jpg
Jennifer Aniston's big chin
http://www.jenaniston.net/gallery/albums/pictures/magazines/a-l/harpers-bazaar-november-2007/normal_001.jpg
Here's a pic with Adriana Lima's figure, she is standing in one place not posing to accentuate the hips, yet she still has a feminine figure and not a masculine one as you proclaim. Granted, its not overly feminine as some of your glamor models but its good enough as her lower half is wider than her top half. Remember, the hourglass figure is the rarest of all body types, so it would be difficult to find someone with an unbelievably beautiful face and an hour glass figure.
http://www.geocities.com/brazilian_hourglass_women/brazilian_women/adriana_lima/ad_l2.jpg
Why are you picking on Miranda Kerr?
BTW I don't see what there is to debate on this page. Gigi is ugly and is unsuitable for life much less modeling. Adriana does her job well and her ~naturally tan~ ass is admired by many white guys. Isn't that enough for you? I mean isn't that the appropriate criteria to judge how hot a woman is? If white guys wanna fuck her then she's *~hawt~*. The end.
Wow Erik! You are not only a "feminine beauty" judge/ anthropologist/homosexologist/delusional asshole but you are also a mind reader and an expert on racism! I had no idea that white people preferred ~unnaturally~ tan skin as opposed to naturally tan skin. I am sure that you have conducted a poll so that you can back up that little ~factoid~. White people use artifical means to get tan skin but they prefer ~unnaturally~ tan skin and Black/Brown people use artificial means to get lighter skin but they prefer ~naturally~ light skin!!!! You are a genius and a psychic Erik! I am glad that the world has you in it so that you can shine the light of knowledge into the darkness!
Der Arschloch sees dark skin and he is reminded of wonderful things like mass illiteracy and tapeworms and that isn't the least bit racist! Good info Erik! I'll take that to heart!
I still think that Arschloch gets warm when he thinks about your kibbles and bits but it is kind of you to break down his complexity of his statement to Stumrabe.
heidi klum is so hot
she makes me masturbate
awyes
Tom: Veronika Zemanova has well above average femininity, but note that her breasts are not natural. So I would stop short of describing her as extremely feminine. There is nothing masculine about her.
Jose: I didn’t describe Adriana’s face as mannish, but there is an obvious masculine element to it. Your girlfriend, Robyn Chance, is on the muscular side and doesn’t look feminine. I am not calling her manly.
Der Wanderer: Neotenic is the wrong word since it implies retention in the adult of the juvenile features of the ancestral species (which would be apes or something close in our case), but adult humans’ face shape is distinct from apes’ juvenile face shape.
You mentioned swollen bellies due to tapeworm infestation, but the typical reason for the swollen bellies sometimes seen in Third World children is lymph fluid leaking into the abdominal cavity because of inadequate protein intake.
Adrian: If beauty is an opinion, then most people share the same opinion, and regarding women, this boils down to a preference for feminine looks. You have described yourself as a male homosexual. So why bother trying to understand heterosexuals’ preferences? I don’t have to make my site “credible” to homosexuals.
Steve: You are not alone. I have ran into similar comments from people who believed themselves to be the only person to see masculinization and unattractiveness in some heavily promoted models. Anyway, it isn’t just forehead shape, but also the chin, the low-set eyebrows and the cheekbone placement that are contributing to a masculine element in Adriana Lima. The masculine bodies of many VS models are not an artifact of being skinny and tall. I have shown numerous pictures of slender women, many with above average height, that don’t look masculine because their skeletal proportions are feminine (examples).
Sturmrabe: No one is describing Adriana’s looks as those of a male-to-female transsexual’s. Read carefully. And, Der Wanderer never argued that brown skin or non-European features make Adriana look masculine.
Danielle: Der Wanderer used “brown trash” and “fugly brownies” sarcastically in reference to Adrian’s use of “white trash,” and hence Der Wanderer’s comment doesn’t qualify as racist. You have used much worse terminology (e.g., fugbeast and I believe white trash, too). Der Wanderer’s dislike of brown/dark skin is a personal view, and he has explained to some extent why, namely the negatives it reminds him of, which isn’t racist by itself, and the comment doesn’t imply hatred of poor people or those with low IQ. Something disliked is not necessarily hated. You yourself don’t like white skin. I recommend that you look at white people’s backside (most don’t tan it) to see for yourself how super pale they naturally are.
In reference to “super pale skin” (natural white skin color in the absence of blemishes and sun exposure), you said, “Many white people share the same opinion so they must be racist too!” No honey, you got it wrong. The preference among whites is for a tan, not naturally darker skin, but if you look at the preferences of the hundreds of millions of dark people who seek skin lightening, their preference is for naturally lighter skin.
Der Wanderer’s reply to Sturmrabe said that he would prefer my member on his mouth to the twisting of his argument by Sturmrabe. What do you think the “go figure” expression means? It means that the former option is totally unacceptable to him.
Why can’t you stick to a reasonable debate? Der Wanderer’s initial comment was a graphic illustration that is fully relevant to the article, but you, Adrian and Sturmrabe had to steer the discussion toward absurdities!
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What a fucking psycho! This dude thinks I don't like "light complexions" when I only said that I don't think that SUPER PALE complexions are very attractive. Many white people share the same opinion so they must be racist too!
The term is "malignant melanoma" Der Arschloch. Google is your friend too. LOL @ your pathetic attempts to insult me. Try again fool! Erik has said that he did not want white supremacists coming to this site with their garbage but I guess all the juicy racist shit on these pages is irresistible to fucktards like you Arschloch. I won't respond to your crap anymore. Have a nice life.
http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/smileys/zip.gif
Hmmm... mmmmpff... HUMMMMMMMPFFFF !!!
http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/smileys/zip.gif
Danielle :
No, I don't (not yet!)
Why are you assuming that?
You lack imagination, hun.
I could be a pushy jew pretending to be a German bigot pretending to be a White wingnut writing about :
"My Brownie Problem" (And Ours)
In that case, I couldn't be a "racist" no matter what (It Would Follow By Definition)
You see ... on Teh Internetz nobody knows that ur a (whatever)
Your nazi/racist smears can't stick, you stupid noob. So stop trying.
Anyone with half a brain can see that.
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