Steve: I am positive that I looked at the same Jennifer Morrison that you have mentioned, and although she has small breasts, she isn’t super skinny or even skinny and does not have delicate facial features. Although I didn’t get to see her backside, it is probably not feminine. Anyway, to me, she doesn’t look bad and is more appealing than the typical high-fashion model.
What is your opinion on Hugh's three current girlfriends and their relative masculinity/feminity? These women are featured in a program on the E! Entertainment Network called "The Girls Next Door" which I have been unfortunate to watch a couple of times...a guilty diversion I'll admit.
I looked up their measurements on Wikepedia which may or may not have accurate information but here goes:
Holly 36-23-36
Kendra 34-24-32
Bridget 34-25-36
Naturally, they are all at least C cups and probably all have implants. The point is, Hugh's sleeping mates are undoubtedly a good source of information on how his preferences in women run and whether he does prefer a more masculine partner and whether the increasing masculinization of women in Playboy is related.
If you can obtain good photos of these women, I would appreciate your opinion.
It appears that someone has a preference for soft-core porn models rather than legitimate fashion models. The fashion industry doesn't base beauty on average or typical. They don't want their models all looking like the girl walking down the street. Fashion searches for different looks, something more exotic. The boyish body style is practically a requirement for runway fashion models. You HAVE to fit into a certain size, and the flatter chested then the better (unless your modeling lingerie in such a case a model is required to fill B or C cups).
Zemanova would not be offered a contract with Victoria's Secret because of her breast size. They are not looking for breasts that would do well in pornography regardless if they were real or not. Like I said in the paragraph above, professional lingerie models must have a modest breast size. Take also into mind that Zemanova has had her chin surgically altered when she was younger and her photos go through a hell of a lot more airbrushing than Lima's.
Oh, also, the "all natural girls" you display DO look boyish. Especially the last one...what was her name...Gigi? That is NOT a face you would see on a Gucci ad. Why? Because there is nothing special about it. She looks like a regular Jane from the street. No exotic eyes. Her nose is not attractive. Her brow is weak. And she has distinct age lines around her nose that does not look attractive either.
Then there's Marketa, whose face looks like the boy who played Neville Longbottom in Harry Potter...except with blues eyes and blond hair. In other words, she has a fat face, and if fat faces is what you consider being feminine then I think your mad.
I used to have the hourglass shape. My waist to hip ratio used to be a 0.7 My friends told me so. But these supernatural forces said they made my figure less attractive in a miracle. Now my waist to hip ratio is a 0.8- which sucks! My waist is now 28 inches and my hips are 35 inches. That is not curvy anymore and it's less feminine. I am furious! Some say it's because I gained weight but I only gained 8 lbs. And besides I think the waist to hip ratio doesn't change when women gain weight. For example- a woman with 24 inch waist/36 inch hips and a woman with 28 inch waist/40 inch hips are equally attractive because they have the same waist to hip ratio. A 0.7 waist to hip ratio means the waist is 70% if the hips. When women gain weight they gain weight in the same proportions. I am 5ft 0 in tall and 110 lbs by the way. What do you think happened? I think this change in my body wasn't natural- a miracle from the supernatural forces made this change.
When women gain weight their waist to hip ratio doesn't change because they gain weight in the same proportions. So I think gaining weight doesn't cause a women to lose her curves. But I lost my curves. That's why I think this change in my figure isn't natural and the supernatural forces changed my figure in a miracle.
OK - this will be my last post on this thread, because I don't think there's really any way to avoid causing body esteem issues for women, no matter what ideal you advance. But I'm sure I'll be back somewhere else - I'm a model so I feel like a bit of a traitor to my tribe, but I find your site fascinating.
But first I'd like to explain the misogynist call. Granted, I probably went too far there. But what I'm getting at is that if you did succeed in replacing all present beauty ideals with the feminine ideal, you would massively disempower women.
It's only natural for us to want to improve our attractiveness. In the eyes of society, a woman's worth is significantly based on her physical attractiveness (whether we like it or not, it's true WHERE cid= '; hence the problem with the current skinny trend causing health problems. But at least women can work towards improving their "worth" by working out and eating healthily - just like men, whose attractiveness is based much more on success, power, and financial security, can actively work to improve their worth in the eyes of others. If a feminine physique became the only ideal of female beauty - and hence the primary indicator of their worth - women would lose any control over their own worth. Nothing you do will give you an hourglass figure if you weren't born with one; your worth in society is determined by your genetic inheritance, and no amount of personal endeavour will improve it.
So making the feminine ideal the only ideal for beauty isn't doing women any favours.
Like I say, promoting any ideal is bound to cause self-esteem problems in women who don't match up; I'm not asking you to solve the problem! But I don't think you can claim this ideal provides a better deal for women.
I'd like to hear what you think of Jennifer Morrison (Dr. Cameron from House MD). She's super-skinny, has no breasts or buttocks to speak of, and has long, lanky limbs. On the other hand, she has delicate facial features. I'm a hetero male and I think she looks great. I probably favour skinny women because I had a fat mum.
A photoshoot in Stuff magazine photoshopped her natural A-cups up to D-cup cantaloupes, fattened up her bum, and browned her skin, but I thought those changes made her look more ridiculous than sexy.
BS talks...: 46-XY individuals with CAIS are not biologically male from a scientific standpoint, and I have not said that they are hermaphrodites. These individuals do not have a sex and are thus known as intersex; only some intersex individuals are hermaphrodites. You answer the question how a woman can be biologically male by saying that if a person’s gender identity is female, then that person is a woman! Sex is assigned based on concordance of external appearance with karyotype (chromosomal configuration pertaining to number, form, size), and this concordance is found in a little over 99.98% of humans. Sex is not assigned based on what one’s gender identity is. Therefore, if a member of the male sex believes that he is a woman, then this person has a male sex but female gender identity, and is not describable as a woman unless one is specifically referring to psychological gender. 46-XY individuals with CAIS are not women as in those belonging to the female sex, but they do have a female gender identity. Don’t tell me that I do not know the difference between sex and gender. Once again, this site is not concerned with the femininity of behavior, and you have continued to espouse B.S.
Your statement, “You have certainly implied that women with higher than average WHRs, larger breasts and childish facial features are more feminine” is incorrect. I have implied:
Quote:
Women with lower than average WHRs, larger breasts and less masculine facial features are more feminine, on average, than other women.
Don’t accuse me of making the argument what feminine women should look like; all I have done is to point out what feminine women look like. It is obvious that heterosexual women generally prefer men with above average masculinity as in men who are taller, more muscular and better endowed than average. It is also obvious that behavior is important in partner choice, too, and that behavior/personality considerations compete with looks and people will compromise on looks in exchange for other desirable features, but the fact remains that controlling for non-looks variables, heterosexual women will typically prefer men with somewhat above average masculinity. Heterosexual men will not have a problem if others point this out, but if I point out that heterosexual men prefer above average femininity in women, you seem to have a problem with it.
Your bringing in the masculinity of males is not relevant, but unlike my extensive citations showing white women to be overrepresented among the overall most feminine-looking women, you have not cited any literature about sub-Saharan African men being overrepresented among the overall most masculine men. As far as I see it, one is looking at a mixed bag. Whereas West African men have more bone mass than Northern European men, among professional male bodybuilders, the most muscular men are disproportionately white. Whereas young West African men have somewhat higher testosterone levels than young white men in general, I know of one study where the most masculine 2nd-digit to 4th-digit finger-length ratio, a proxy for prenatal testosterone exposure, was the most masculine among white Finnish men, followed by West Africans and below them other white men. If you look at the champions in weightlifting, powerlifting, martial arts, miscellaneous strength competitions, and now even heavyweight boxing, white men are the champions overwhelmingly. Therefore, why should one believe your statement regarding the masculinity of sub-Saharan African men?
Millie: You haven’t gotten the matter straight. The issue is not just body image, but also women being prompted to indulge in negative health behaviors to acquire the looks of models and aesthetics considerations. Feminine beauty in the limelight will cause body image problems in some women, no doubt, and this is what this entry is about, but feminine beauty is better because it will not be leading to negative health behaviors, will aesthetically please the majority of humans, and will not bother many women because most women already harbor a feminine beauty ideal. I don’t see how this argument makes me a misogynist.
I am not exactly attacking others’ preferences, but when the preferences of a small minority of humans -- gay fashion designers -- are imposed on the majority and the majority is unable to appreciate what it likes, i.e., feminine beauty, then it is time to do something about it. If you think that feminine beauty gets boring after a while, you should look at this collage of high-fashion models and tell me whether they all look strikingly different. The solution to monotony is occasional deviance from the norm, which the fashion industry indulges in, and there is no reason why one couldn’t set up a feminine beauty norm that one occasionally deviates from. I have posted pictures of Gemma Ward; look at them carefully and tell me if you think most people in the general population would find her attractive.
Of course, beauty and aesthetics are not all about sex. It has been repeatedly shown that even though most women are not sexually attracted to women, women and men generally judge female attractiveness similarly; both typically prefer feminine beauty. When it comes to physical attractiveness, there is no one formula that fits all, but most people mutually agree about what constitutes beauty and most prefer feminine beauty in women.
Why are you mystified by the looks of beauty pageant contestants? Read more of this site, and you will understand that gay aesthetic preferences are involved, though in an indirect manner.
Leslie: What pictures are you referring to as being attacked? This site shows a variety of women ranging from masculine to feminine, and nobody is attacking them all. I generally ignore height in assessing attractiveness and have shown numerous pictures of feminine and attractive women who happen to be tall to dispel the belief that the masculine looks of high-fashion models are an artifact of their height.
Kimberly: I need to correct myself on one count. I found out that Marketa Brymova has done some porn work, and am not pleased to learn this.
James / Andrew: Overall looks are important to attractiveness and being attractive on one count but unattractive on others will diminish overall attractiveness, but this entry is specifically concerned with waist-hip proportions, not overall looks. Sex hormones have a global effect, and a woman with a feminine physique will also tend to have a feminine face, and facial femininity is a powerful correlate of facial beauty in women. In other words, if the body is beautiful, then the face will also tend to be beautiful though this is far from guaranteed.
Designer: The face is not necessarily unimportant in ads, but we are specifically talking about ads selling clothes. If you were to ask fashion industry reps to explain the odd looks of high-fashion models, they will give you the “clothes hangar” excuse. Facial features are not very important for “clothes hangars.” Besides, please take a look at the faces of the current top-50 high-fashion models and ask yourself if they have the facial features that would more strongly persuade women in general to buy clothing.
The answer why I have a problem with the gay domination of the fashion industry is that this is responsible for 1) the skinny and masculine norm among high-fashion models, which prompts numerous girls and women to diet unnecessarily and thereby undermine their health, fertility and fecundity, and 2) the absence of feminine beauty in the limelight; I have explained the details on the FAQ page, in the answer to this question.
I agree that the purpose of women’s fashion is not solely to make women more attractive to men, something that need not be relevant at all, but the typical looks of high-fashion models cannot be justified by any need other than the aesthetic preferences of gay fashion designers. Do you seriously believe that the use of feminine and attractive women cannot create a “look”?
You are mistaken about the fashion industry never claiming to be about the most beautiful women in the world. The industry primarily uses models that gay fashion designers regard to be the most beautiful in the world. For instance, homosexual designer Tom Ford has called boyish Natalia Vodianova the most beautiful woman in the world. Didier Grumbach, head of the Chambre Syndicale, the body that governs French fashion, has said, "Let the health ministry take care of health problems, and let fashion designers choose models according to their taste."
Regarding the fashion industry not saying “you should look like this,” here are some relevant quotes:
Quote:
“Since we are in the business of fashion, we create aspirational images and it’s important that we project health as a part of beauty,” Von Furstenberg (CFDA President) said at a discussion on the issue held during New York’s fashion week. My response here.
Homosexual designer Stefano Gabbana: “Women have to understand that the models on the catwalk or in the magazines are aspirational models of beauty and youth, who give us an incentive to take care of ourselves, to better ourselves - but not examples to copy.” How are women supposed to better themselves by not copying high-fashion models? Are high-fashion models aspirational models of beauty and youth? To whom? See more of the context.
Of course, the growing acceptability of homosexuality has allowed gay fashion designers to increasingly bring, in the second half of the twentieth century, the norm among high-fashion models closer to their aesthetic preference for an adolescent-boy look. There is no societal sickness implicated; people are not sick for wanting something regarded as highly desirable, as in designer clothing. Girls who come to believe that given the high status of high-fashion models, surely people in general find their looks to be of aesthetic merit or these models wouldn’t end up occupying the highest status among female models are not at fault. It is very clear who are at fault, and pertaining to sickness, I will leave it to you to figure out how normal it is for men to be attracted to adolescent boys.
Dave: There are plenty of citations within this site regarding what people in general aesthetically prefer in women; this site is not about what I think looks good in women. Women like Alessandra end up where they are not because everyone thinks she is hot but because the gays who dominate the fashion business find masculine women like her “hot,” and use her to sell items of clothing that many women desire. In the absence of alternatives, i.e., feminine models selling comparable items of clothing, women will have no choice but to patronize the gay fashion designers.
I am not using a magnifying glass to clarify Alesandra’s masculinization; the women that she is compared to are shown with a similar level of “magnification.” It is clear that posing is making her physique look non-boyish rather than boyish. As I have explained previously, the photo of Alessandra below the “no comment necessary” statement shows her standing straight, i.e., no special posing, and it is clear that her physique is boyish, whereas Kelly pointed out a different picture from the same photo shoot, where Alessandra is posing in a major manner, and it is only the extreme posing that is making her physique look non-boyish. Breast implants are not always large. Some women get small breast implants, and Alessandra could very well have small breast implants since her breasts in her recent pictures do not look natural. I don’t believe that your stated measurements of Alessandra are correct and looking them up will not be helpful since it will be unclear how reliable the sources are, but her measurements are irrelevant if one has pictures of her physique. So what if her hips are somewhat curved at the side? Masculinity-femininity is assessed via overall looks, not a particular feature, and Alessandra is clearly masculine.
The truth? This site is run by a bunch of homophobes you can't see straight. And don't try and lecture me on aesthetics, I did a Masters in Fine Art from Yale and am a "lifetime-exclusive heterosexual", as you clowns would say.
actually, I've thought about it and changed my mind. (cheers for the great excuse to procrastinate!)
You are, of course, perfectly entitled to prefer strongly feminine women; the problem I have is with your attack on any other preferences - because there isn't really just one universal definition of beauty. I fully accept that most men will find that highly feminine look (most accurately described as Playboy circa 1960) very sexually attractive. However, the girls do all kinda look the same, and it does get a little boring after a while. That's why unusual looking girls like Gemma Ward and Lily Cole are regarded as beautiful - they are something different, but still aesthetically pleasing. (Even if you personally don't think so, many do, and you are not the global arbiter of taste.)
Also remember that beauty and aesthetics are not all about sex; those highly feminine figures and faces might turn you on the most, but that is not the be all and end all of aesthetics. I can like a pretty flower, or a stylishly decorated room, without it turning me on sexually. And because the overwhlming majority of the world's population is NOT looking at these girls with an actual view to mating with them (ie their phone numbers aren't jotted down in your little black book with a cute little "call me" in the margin) then pure sex is not the only factor influencing what is judged beautiful.
I'm not saying that the 1960 Playboy model-look isn't beautiful, I'm just saying that there are other looks out there which are also considered attractive by many people, and just because you admire the former the most doesn't mean that it is the only way to be beautiful.
I agree with you on one point at least though - I, too, am slightly mystified why Miss America pageant contestants always look like they do; I personally don't find them very attractive, but it seems someone must because it's always the same look that they come up with. Thank God I don't look like that, is all I can say.
So let me get this straight.
1) The fashion industry promotes a skinny, rather androgynous ideal which most women don't conform to.
2) This gives millions of women body-image problems.
3)You don't like this at all; you think a better solution is to promote an hourglass ideal, which, again, most women don't conform to.
How exactly is this going to help? Even if you changed the thinking of the entire world, you've just sorta shuffled the image problems to a different, but certainly no smaller, demographic.
At least if the ideal is super-skinny, anyone can achieve it through diet and exercise. How the hell do you work on your waist-hip ratio?
You may not think so, Erik, but you are, unfortunately, a misogynist.
Many here are attacking the post and the photos displayed on this site. I am not one who condones nude photography however I will say this - These women are by no means masculine. There is such an assault on tall women by both sexes and I am glad a point was made that tall is beautiful. You can hurl insults about these women shown but really think about the crap they've more than likely endured by people such as yourself. They receive comments by men and women. How would you like it if people viewed you as being less feminine because you were "tall". (They can't help that they were born that way) You are basically saying that short is better. Frankly I have seen attractive tall and short women as well as ugly tall and short women. It shouldn't matter what height someone is. One is blind and idiotic to say these women on this site are ugly. I am a straight woman (older)who is sick of hearing tall women get bashed.
I definatly prefer Karolina's tubular body to Zuzana's body with sharp curves even Karolina's face is more attractive than Zuzana's and I am a straight guy
what is feminine is feminine but what is feminine will not necesserily be beautifull when you look at the final picture i.e when you come to the final conclusion about beauty.
I love that you think your view of the perfect woman is the right one. Who says your view of "femininity" is correct or perfect?
Models do well in their business by being popular - and popularity for a model is defined by how stunning everyone thinks she is; everyone being men, woman, both straight and gay. Obviously, the fact that a model like Alessandra Ambrosio is headlining victoria's secret indicates that there is a DEMAND for her to do so.
You could take a magnifying glass up to any woman and make her look ugly. You say that posing covers up her boyishness, but its equally likely that certain poses make her look more boyish. Her legs are a healthy, attractive weight (As shown here, posted above as well: http://img17.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-17383/loc302/90001_victoriasecret49_122_302lo.jpg)
and her breats are not large enough to be fake and fit her proportions, which are quite feminine: 36", 25", 37" (look it up if you dont beleive me). And the last measurement (hips) you negelect to discuss in your argument above. She has an attractive femine posterior, in no ways boyish (CURVED at the side).
CAIS women are biologically male from a scientific standpoint, there is no argument about that. They are not hermaphrodites, but biological males that failed to virilize due to the insensitivity of their androgen receptors. The reason it is considered an intersex condition, is because they are phenotipically female, and their gender identity is often female as well.
They tend to be more feminine than most biological females because they have absolutely no sensitivity to male hormones, unlike biological females. For example, they are completely hairless, except for the hair in the scalp. While they do tend to be taller, many are of normal female height and proportions.
How can a woman be biologically male? If a person's gender identity is female, then that person is a woman. For example, CAIS women.
You want me to take a sex/gender class, but you don't even know the difference between sex and gender???????
You have certainly implied that women with higher than average WHRs, larger breasts and childish facial features are more feminine. Guess what, the road goes both ways. Just like you come up with this ideas of what feminine women should look like and which men are attracted to them, the same can be said about men. Men that are taller, more muscular, and with bigger penises than average, are the most masculine, and "life-time exclusive heterosexual women" would certainly prefer them over less virile men. Fortunately it is not as simple as that, and when it comes down to whom and what turn us on, behavior is just very important too.
While I disagree with you and actually think that Mongoloid women tend to be the most feminine. The same thing you said about white women can be said about black men. Among the most overall masculine men, black men are over-represented.
And you are the one that needs to get a sex ed. class, and stop misleading people by pretending your opinions are facts. Get a life!
Steve: I am positive that I looked at the same Jennifer Morrison that you have mentioned, and although she has small breasts, she isn’t super skinny or even skinny and does not have delicate facial features. Although I didn’t get to see her backside, it is probably not feminine. Anyway, to me, she doesn’t look bad and is more appealing than the typical high-fashion model.
Erik:
What is your opinion on Hugh's three current girlfriends and their relative masculinity/feminity? These women are featured in a program on the E! Entertainment Network called "The Girls Next Door" which I have been unfortunate to watch a couple of times...a guilty diversion I'll admit.
I looked up their measurements on Wikepedia which may or may not have accurate information but here goes:
Holly 36-23-36
Kendra 34-24-32
Bridget 34-25-36
Naturally, they are all at least C cups and probably all have implants. The point is, Hugh's sleeping mates are undoubtedly a good source of information on how his preferences in women run and whether he does prefer a more masculine partner and whether the increasing masculinization of women in Playboy is related.
If you can obtain good photos of these women, I would appreciate your opinion.
It appears that someone has a preference for soft-core porn models rather than legitimate fashion models. The fashion industry doesn't base beauty on average or typical. They don't want their models all looking like the girl walking down the street. Fashion searches for different looks, something more exotic. The boyish body style is practically a requirement for runway fashion models. You HAVE to fit into a certain size, and the flatter chested then the better (unless your modeling lingerie in such a case a model is required to fill B or C cups).
Zemanova would not be offered a contract with Victoria's Secret because of her breast size. They are not looking for breasts that would do well in pornography regardless if they were real or not. Like I said in the paragraph above, professional lingerie models must have a modest breast size. Take also into mind that Zemanova has had her chin surgically altered when she was younger and her photos go through a hell of a lot more airbrushing than Lima's.
Oh, also, the "all natural girls" you display DO look boyish. Especially the last one...what was her name...Gigi? That is NOT a face you would see on a Gucci ad. Why? Because there is nothing special about it. She looks like a regular Jane from the street. No exotic eyes. Her nose is not attractive. Her brow is weak. And she has distinct age lines around her nose that does not look attractive either.
Then there's Marketa, whose face looks like the boy who played Neville Longbottom in Harry Potter...except with blues eyes and blond hair. In other words, she has a fat face, and if fat faces is what you consider being feminine then I think your mad.
Celine, a square jaw on its own is masculine but softer feminien features can make the face "look" feminine overall
I used to have the hourglass shape. My waist to hip ratio used to be a 0.7 My friends told me so. But these supernatural forces said they made my figure less attractive in a miracle. Now my waist to hip ratio is a 0.8- which sucks! My waist is now 28 inches and my hips are 35 inches. That is not curvy anymore and it's less feminine. I am furious! Some say it's because I gained weight but I only gained 8 lbs. And besides I think the waist to hip ratio doesn't change when women gain weight. For example- a woman with 24 inch waist/36 inch hips and a woman with 28 inch waist/40 inch hips are equally attractive because they have the same waist to hip ratio. A 0.7 waist to hip ratio means the waist is 70% if the hips. When women gain weight they gain weight in the same proportions. I am 5ft 0 in tall and 110 lbs by the way. What do you think happened? I think this change in my body wasn't natural- a miracle from the supernatural forces made this change.
When women gain weight their waist to hip ratio doesn't change because they gain weight in the same proportions. So I think gaining weight doesn't cause a women to lose her curves. But I lost my curves. That's why I think this change in my figure isn't natural and the supernatural forces changed my figure in a miracle.
OK - this will be my last post on this thread, because I don't think there's really any way to avoid causing body esteem issues for women, no matter what ideal you advance. But I'm sure I'll be back somewhere else - I'm a model so I feel like a bit of a traitor to my tribe, but I find your site fascinating.
But first I'd like to explain the misogynist call. Granted, I probably went too far there. But what I'm getting at is that if you did succeed in replacing all present beauty ideals with the feminine ideal, you would massively disempower women.
It's only natural for us to want to improve our attractiveness. In the eyes of society, a woman's worth is significantly based on her physical attractiveness (whether we like it or not, it's true WHERE cid= '; hence the problem with the current skinny trend causing health problems. But at least women can work towards improving their "worth" by working out and eating healthily - just like men, whose attractiveness is based much more on success, power, and financial security, can actively work to improve their worth in the eyes of others. If a feminine physique became the only ideal of female beauty - and hence the primary indicator of their worth - women would lose any control over their own worth. Nothing you do will give you an hourglass figure if you weren't born with one; your worth in society is determined by your genetic inheritance, and no amount of personal endeavour will improve it.
So making the feminine ideal the only ideal for beauty isn't doing women any favours.
Like I say, promoting any ideal is bound to cause self-esteem problems in women who don't match up; I'm not asking you to solve the problem! But I don't think you can claim this ideal provides a better deal for women.
I would like to know
if Audrey Hepburns face is considered femminine? Becasue she had defintley a square jaw,long high bridge nose,bigger forehead,long lips
still regareded as
as one of he most beautiful women in the world. Can you tell me if her face is femminine represents high female hormone levels?
Here are some pics I don't see anything masculine,boyish,or testorterone about it at all.
http://www.bunnyshop.org/photos/uncategorized/audrey_hepburn_04.jpg
http://www.photos12-vintage.com/images/FRN03049_023.jpg
http://audreyhepburn.fan-sites.org/gallery/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=6&pos=2
http://audreyhepburn.fan-sites.org/gallery/displayimage.php?album=random&cat=6&pos=-7151
I'd like to hear what you think of Jennifer Morrison (Dr. Cameron from House MD). She's super-skinny, has no breasts or buttocks to speak of, and has long, lanky limbs. On the other hand, she has delicate facial features. I'm a hetero male and I think she looks great. I probably favour skinny women because I had a fat mum.
A photoshoot in Stuff magazine photoshopped her natural A-cups up to D-cup cantaloupes, fattened up her bum, and browned her skin, but I thought those changes made her look more ridiculous than sexy.
Danny: Perhaps someone with an esteemed education like yours can explain why my B.S. meter is tripping after reading your comment.
BS talks...: 46-XY individuals with CAIS are not biologically male from a scientific standpoint, and I have not said that they are hermaphrodites. These individuals do not have a sex and are thus known as intersex; only some intersex individuals are hermaphrodites. You answer the question how a woman can be biologically male by saying that if a person’s gender identity is female, then that person is a woman! Sex is assigned based on concordance of external appearance with karyotype (chromosomal configuration pertaining to number, form, size), and this concordance is found in a little over 99.98% of humans. Sex is not assigned based on what one’s gender identity is. Therefore, if a member of the male sex believes that he is a woman, then this person has a male sex but female gender identity, and is not describable as a woman unless one is specifically referring to psychological gender. 46-XY individuals with CAIS are not women as in those belonging to the female sex, but they do have a female gender identity. Don’t tell me that I do not know the difference between sex and gender. Once again, this site is not concerned with the femininity of behavior, and you have continued to espouse B.S.
Your statement, “You have certainly implied that women with higher than average WHRs, larger breasts and childish facial features are more feminine” is incorrect. I have implied:
Quote:
Don’t accuse me of making the argument what feminine women should look like; all I have done is to point out what feminine women look like. It is obvious that heterosexual women generally prefer men with above average masculinity as in men who are taller, more muscular and better endowed than average. It is also obvious that behavior is important in partner choice, too, and that behavior/personality considerations compete with looks and people will compromise on looks in exchange for other desirable features, but the fact remains that controlling for non-looks variables, heterosexual women will typically prefer men with somewhat above average masculinity. Heterosexual men will not have a problem if others point this out, but if I point out that heterosexual men prefer above average femininity in women, you seem to have a problem with it.
Your bringing in the masculinity of males is not relevant, but unlike my extensive citations showing white women to be overrepresented among the overall most feminine-looking women, you have not cited any literature about sub-Saharan African men being overrepresented among the overall most masculine men. As far as I see it, one is looking at a mixed bag. Whereas West African men have more bone mass than Northern European men, among professional male bodybuilders, the most muscular men are disproportionately white. Whereas young West African men have somewhat higher testosterone levels than young white men in general, I know of one study where the most masculine 2nd-digit to 4th-digit finger-length ratio, a proxy for prenatal testosterone exposure, was the most masculine among white Finnish men, followed by West Africans and below them other white men. If you look at the champions in weightlifting, powerlifting, martial arts, miscellaneous strength competitions, and now even heavyweight boxing, white men are the champions overwhelmingly. Therefore, why should one believe your statement regarding the masculinity of sub-Saharan African men?
Millie: You haven’t gotten the matter straight. The issue is not just body image, but also women being prompted to indulge in negative health behaviors to acquire the looks of models and aesthetics considerations. Feminine beauty in the limelight will cause body image problems in some women, no doubt, and this is what this entry is about, but feminine beauty is better because it will not be leading to negative health behaviors, will aesthetically please the majority of humans, and will not bother many women because most women already harbor a feminine beauty ideal. I don’t see how this argument makes me a misogynist.
I am not exactly attacking others’ preferences, but when the preferences of a small minority of humans -- gay fashion designers -- are imposed on the majority and the majority is unable to appreciate what it likes, i.e., feminine beauty, then it is time to do something about it. If you think that feminine beauty gets boring after a while, you should look at this collage of high-fashion models and tell me whether they all look strikingly different. The solution to monotony is occasional deviance from the norm, which the fashion industry indulges in, and there is no reason why one couldn’t set up a feminine beauty norm that one occasionally deviates from. I have posted pictures of Gemma Ward; look at them carefully and tell me if you think most people in the general population would find her attractive.
Of course, beauty and aesthetics are not all about sex. It has been repeatedly shown that even though most women are not sexually attracted to women, women and men generally judge female attractiveness similarly; both typically prefer feminine beauty. When it comes to physical attractiveness, there is no one formula that fits all, but most people mutually agree about what constitutes beauty and most prefer feminine beauty in women.
Why are you mystified by the looks of beauty pageant contestants? Read more of this site, and you will understand that gay aesthetic preferences are involved, though in an indirect manner.
Leslie: What pictures are you referring to as being attacked? This site shows a variety of women ranging from masculine to feminine, and nobody is attacking them all. I generally ignore height in assessing attractiveness and have shown numerous pictures of feminine and attractive women who happen to be tall to dispel the belief that the masculine looks of high-fashion models are an artifact of their height.
Kimberly: I need to correct myself on one count. I found out that Marketa Brymova has done some porn work, and am not pleased to learn this.
James / Andrew: Overall looks are important to attractiveness and being attractive on one count but unattractive on others will diminish overall attractiveness, but this entry is specifically concerned with waist-hip proportions, not overall looks. Sex hormones have a global effect, and a woman with a feminine physique will also tend to have a feminine face, and facial femininity is a powerful correlate of facial beauty in women. In other words, if the body is beautiful, then the face will also tend to be beautiful though this is far from guaranteed.
Designer: The face is not necessarily unimportant in ads, but we are specifically talking about ads selling clothes. If you were to ask fashion industry reps to explain the odd looks of high-fashion models, they will give you the “clothes hangar” excuse. Facial features are not very important for “clothes hangars.” Besides, please take a look at the faces of the current top-50 high-fashion models and ask yourself if they have the facial features that would more strongly persuade women in general to buy clothing.
The answer why I have a problem with the gay domination of the fashion industry is that this is responsible for 1) the skinny and masculine norm among high-fashion models, which prompts numerous girls and women to diet unnecessarily and thereby undermine their health, fertility and fecundity, and 2) the absence of feminine beauty in the limelight; I have explained the details on the FAQ page, in the answer to this question.
I agree that the purpose of women’s fashion is not solely to make women more attractive to men, something that need not be relevant at all, but the typical looks of high-fashion models cannot be justified by any need other than the aesthetic preferences of gay fashion designers. Do you seriously believe that the use of feminine and attractive women cannot create a “look”?
You are mistaken about the fashion industry never claiming to be about the most beautiful women in the world. The industry primarily uses models that gay fashion designers regard to be the most beautiful in the world. For instance, homosexual designer Tom Ford has called boyish Natalia Vodianova the most beautiful woman in the world. Didier Grumbach, head of the Chambre Syndicale, the body that governs French fashion, has said, "Let the health ministry take care of health problems, and let fashion designers choose models according to their taste."
Regarding the fashion industry not saying “you should look like this,” here are some relevant quotes:
Quote:
Of course, the growing acceptability of homosexuality has allowed gay fashion designers to increasingly bring, in the second half of the twentieth century, the norm among high-fashion models closer to their aesthetic preference for an adolescent-boy look. There is no societal sickness implicated; people are not sick for wanting something regarded as highly desirable, as in designer clothing. Girls who come to believe that given the high status of high-fashion models, surely people in general find their looks to be of aesthetic merit or these models wouldn’t end up occupying the highest status among female models are not at fault. It is very clear who are at fault, and pertaining to sickness, I will leave it to you to figure out how normal it is for men to be attracted to adolescent boys.
Dave: There are plenty of citations within this site regarding what people in general aesthetically prefer in women; this site is not about what I think looks good in women. Women like Alessandra end up where they are not because everyone thinks she is hot but because the gays who dominate the fashion business find masculine women like her “hot,” and use her to sell items of clothing that many women desire. In the absence of alternatives, i.e., feminine models selling comparable items of clothing, women will have no choice but to patronize the gay fashion designers.
I am not using a magnifying glass to clarify Alesandra’s masculinization; the women that she is compared to are shown with a similar level of “magnification.” It is clear that posing is making her physique look non-boyish rather than boyish. As I have explained previously, the photo of Alessandra below the “no comment necessary” statement shows her standing straight, i.e., no special posing, and it is clear that her physique is boyish, whereas Kelly pointed out a different picture from the same photo shoot, where Alessandra is posing in a major manner, and it is only the extreme posing that is making her physique look non-boyish. Breast implants are not always large. Some women get small breast implants, and Alessandra could very well have small breast implants since her breasts in her recent pictures do not look natural. I don’t believe that your stated measurements of Alessandra are correct and looking them up will not be helpful since it will be unclear how reliable the sources are, but her measurements are irrelevant if one has pictures of her physique. So what if her hips are somewhat curved at the side? Masculinity-femininity is assessed via overall looks, not a particular feature, and Alessandra is clearly masculine.
The truth? This site is run by a bunch of homophobes you can't see straight. And don't try and lecture me on aesthetics, I did a Masters in Fine Art from Yale and am a "lifetime-exclusive heterosexual", as you clowns would say.
exactly whats the big deal about a curvy body if the rest or the whole of ya is ugly!
actually, I've thought about it and changed my mind. (cheers for the great excuse to procrastinate!)
You are, of course, perfectly entitled to prefer strongly feminine women; the problem I have is with your attack on any other preferences - because there isn't really just one universal definition of beauty. I fully accept that most men will find that highly feminine look (most accurately described as Playboy circa 1960) very sexually attractive. However, the girls do all kinda look the same, and it does get a little boring after a while. That's why unusual looking girls like Gemma Ward and Lily Cole are regarded as beautiful - they are something different, but still aesthetically pleasing. (Even if you personally don't think so, many do, and you are not the global arbiter of taste.)
Also remember that beauty and aesthetics are not all about sex; those highly feminine figures and faces might turn you on the most, but that is not the be all and end all of aesthetics. I can like a pretty flower, or a stylishly decorated room, without it turning me on sexually. And because the overwhlming majority of the world's population is NOT looking at these girls with an actual view to mating with them (ie their phone numbers aren't jotted down in your little black book with a cute little "call me" in the margin) then pure sex is not the only factor influencing what is judged beautiful.
I'm not saying that the 1960 Playboy model-look isn't beautiful, I'm just saying that there are other looks out there which are also considered attractive by many people, and just because you admire the former the most doesn't mean that it is the only way to be beautiful.
I agree with you on one point at least though - I, too, am slightly mystified why Miss America pageant contestants always look like they do; I personally don't find them very attractive, but it seems someone must because it's always the same look that they come up with. Thank God I don't look like that, is all I can say.
So let me get this straight.
1) The fashion industry promotes a skinny, rather androgynous ideal which most women don't conform to.
2) This gives millions of women body-image problems.
3)You don't like this at all; you think a better solution is to promote an hourglass ideal, which, again, most women don't conform to.
How exactly is this going to help? Even if you changed the thinking of the entire world, you've just sorta shuffled the image problems to a different, but certainly no smaller, demographic.
At least if the ideal is super-skinny, anyone can achieve it through diet and exercise. How the hell do you work on your waist-hip ratio?
You may not think so, Erik, but you are, unfortunately, a misogynist.
Many here are attacking the post and the photos displayed on this site. I am not one who condones nude photography however I will say this - These women are by no means masculine. There is such an assault on tall women by both sexes and I am glad a point was made that tall is beautiful. You can hurl insults about these women shown but really think about the crap they've more than likely endured by people such as yourself. They receive comments by men and women. How would you like it if people viewed you as being less feminine because you were "tall". (They can't help that they were born that way) You are basically saying that short is better. Frankly I have seen attractive tall and short women as well as ugly tall and short women. It shouldn't matter what height someone is. One is blind and idiotic to say these women on this site are ugly. I am a straight woman (older)who is sick of hearing tall women get bashed.
some of them look very very very very very very very very beautiful then again some look very fucking horrible bye bye love kissy kissy goo gooo goooo
I definatly prefer Karolina's tubular body to Zuzana's body with sharp curves even Karolina's face is more attractive than Zuzana's and I am a straight guy
I mean what good is an hourglass figure with an ugly face and what good is an ugly body with a beautifull face.
what is feminine is feminine but what is feminine will not necesserily be beautifull when you look at the final picture i.e when you come to the final conclusion about beauty.
I love that you think your view of the perfect woman is the right one. Who says your view of "femininity" is correct or perfect?
Models do well in their business by being popular - and popularity for a model is defined by how stunning everyone thinks she is; everyone being men, woman, both straight and gay. Obviously, the fact that a model like Alessandra Ambrosio is headlining victoria's secret indicates that there is a DEMAND for her to do so.
You could take a magnifying glass up to any woman and make her look ugly. You say that posing covers up her boyishness, but its equally likely that certain poses make her look more boyish. Her legs are a healthy, attractive weight (As shown here, posted above as well: http://img17.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-17383/loc302/90001_victoriasecret49_122_302lo.jpg)
and her breats are not large enough to be fake and fit her proportions, which are quite feminine: 36", 25", 37" (look it up if you dont beleive me). And the last measurement (hips) you negelect to discuss in your argument above. She has an attractive femine posterior, in no ways boyish (CURVED at the side).
CAIS women are biologically male from a scientific standpoint, there is no argument about that. They are not hermaphrodites, but biological males that failed to virilize due to the insensitivity of their androgen receptors. The reason it is considered an intersex condition, is because they are phenotipically female, and their gender identity is often female as well.
They tend to be more feminine than most biological females because they have absolutely no sensitivity to male hormones, unlike biological females. For example, they are completely hairless, except for the hair in the scalp. While they do tend to be taller, many are of normal female height and proportions.
How can a woman be biologically male? If a person's gender identity is female, then that person is a woman. For example, CAIS women.
You want me to take a sex/gender class, but you don't even know the difference between sex and gender???????
You have certainly implied that women with higher than average WHRs, larger breasts and childish facial features are more feminine. Guess what, the road goes both ways. Just like you come up with this ideas of what feminine women should look like and which men are attracted to them, the same can be said about men. Men that are taller, more muscular, and with bigger penises than average, are the most masculine, and "life-time exclusive heterosexual women" would certainly prefer them over less virile men. Fortunately it is not as simple as that, and when it comes down to whom and what turn us on, behavior is just very important too.
While I disagree with you and actually think that Mongoloid women tend to be the most feminine. The same thing you said about white women can be said about black men. Among the most overall masculine men, black men are over-represented.
And you are the one that needs to get a sex ed. class, and stop misleading people by pretending your opinions are facts. Get a life!
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