This girl has a terrible body! She has no muscle tone to speak of. She isn't fat but her stomach looks soft and flabby and I'm sorry but the angle of her ass shot does not convince me that she has shapely booty. So many girls have faces and bodies like this so she is completely unremarkable. You have very poor tastes Erik. I really don't know what you are trying to prove by putting this plain girl's pictures on your site.
Anon (posting on Oct 25, 2007, 4 PM): Retards like you can’t even come up with a legitimate insult. You call Doutzen’s picture the worst that I could pick even though in it she is all made-up, and one doesn’t observe any odd expression, freckles, zits or the like. So what makes it a bad choice? Obviously the fact that her facial masculinization is clear in it. Even Danielle below you realizes this, and both her picture choices show hair hiding parts of her face, camouflaging her masculinization, as has been the case with many pictures cited by her. Then you call me a “homo” for preferring a more feminine look and describe the feminine women shown as having “huge udder like tits or mounds of fat.” Great job.
Danielle: What do you mean I am afraid of discussing Doutzen Kroes in the context of Victoria’s Secret modeling? I am not done with the series, and I need to be addressing many issues apart from lingerie modeling by Victoria’s Secret. Besides, my argument has never been that they all look transsexual, just that a lot of them do. Doutzen is not feminine but she doesn’t look like a transsexual either.
Me: Who is me? What do I need to prove? I am not saying that Alessandra is a transsexual but that she looks like a male-to-female transsexual, and the proof is in the pictures.
Krisah: Understanding men jerking off to Alessandra is easy; they are typically not of the heterosexual variety.
Old Skool: LOL! Supermodels are not collected from Maxim, FHM and STUFF. They may sometimes appear in them, but they are made famous by the fashion industry. I don’t believe I am using pictures of Alessandra above from when she was 15. If a flat-chested woman wanted to get breast implants, some would want to make it look as natural as possible and hence would get small implants. The women I have been showing are 18-plus and with rare exceptions, they look it, and the exceptions are typically used for purposes such as showing that a feminine and slender girl who looks 16 going by her face would be rejected in favor a slender 16-year-old who looks masculine.
Also, a few things to note for other posters here:
-Erik proposes that a preference for more "derived" features is due to their pedomorphism, which is considered near-universally attractive, and is considered feminine. Yet, again, large cheekbones and jaws, while less-derived than smaller ones, have nothing to do with femininity, so something else must be at play here.
-Epicanthic folds have nothing to do with derivation, but Erik just thinks they're more preffered.
"Erik, you still haven’t answered BSP’s question as to why, if there is an innate preference for “more derived” features, Asian cultures did not consider double eyelids more attractive than single eyelids before 20th century modern Western media saturation. "
Exactly. I think well over 20% of Korea's population (just South Korea, not sure about North) naturally lack epicanthic folds, and yet surgery to remove it, out of all east asian majority nations, is highest in South Korea. Even if there were an innate preference for non-epicanthic eyes on average, the surgery rate seen among them now for their removal is just too high. That rate would only be around for a truly ugly, repulsive trait if it were so wholly innate.
Besides, exactly what other "ethnic features" are you reffering to?There's such considerable overlap among human ethnic groups among the cranio-facial structure, and for them all, there's only a few distinctive traits truly setting them all apart. Compared to Europeans, how different would africans look if you made their jaws flatter and their orbits less dense and round? How different would east asians look compared to europeans if their facial profiles wern't so flat?
Although you could certainly consider less distinctive traits like the overall size of the jaws and cheekbones ethnic traitd due to greatly differing group averages, let me ask you this- would this japanese woman look better if she had cheek reduction and the like as you alluded to?: http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/1323/947f7f9af9934aff35f315dfv7.jpg
I doubt it. Well, it wouldn't make a difference. Although she seems to be in her early 30's, and her mouth seems rather large, she has extremely feminine, soft, and gracile features overall, despite having very large cheeks and jaw. I think you once mentioned elsewhere on this site that overal robustness shouldn't be confounded with feminity, right?
She's just one example, but a very prominent one I'd say. Look- in terms of some cranio-facial features, I, again, wouldn't deny that ones shifted somewhat more towards european norms are more desired, but this seems to hold true moreso for women, this is a rather small, broad classification overall, and likewise, why haven't you provided what you think are in the proper aestethic range of nasal structure for non-europeans? And please stop reffering to nasal differences under the banner of how derived they are? Primates only had such larger noses due to bigger nasal cavities allowing them to smell better, and differences among nasal structures among human populations are due to climactic differences. If these could be classified as more "derived", noses with very tall set bridges, projecting out extensively from the face, and just being huge and meaty overall would fit that. Yet how many people really find that attractive?
You are making the same illegitimate assumption as Erik. LINGERIE COMPANIES ARE NOT MARKETING THEIR PRODUCT TO MEN! If you can understand this, then you can understand why designers do not choose models according to their fulfillment of heterosexual male aesthetic preferences. Selecting women who fulfill the fantasy of heterosexual men would be a deterrent to heterosexual women. Women do not select their wardrobe based on its ability to arouse men (at least not exclusively). They select it based on its ability to fulfill their ideal self-image, which is the same reason anyone selects their wardrobe. The image of the soft-core porn star is hardly the ideal for most women. For instance, the most revealing and sexual items VS sells are also their most expensive items: garter belts, hosiery, lace, bustiers, etc. A lingerie ensemble like this can easily be more than $100 even at its cheapest. Victoria's Secret is playing to the cross section between female sexuality and luxury, not sexuality and availability or male fantasy, and this all plays into notions of female empowerment. Even in a sexual context and ideal female self-image must be imbued with empowerment, which translates into sexual exclusivity. The model most fulfill this embodiment of sexual exclusivity, which in our day and age is extremely thin (most likely because of associations between gluttony and lust) and "fierce," which is usually expressed with a hardened look and furrowed brow, almost a glare. On several seasons of America's Next Top Model, you will find that the panel of judges differentiate between men's magazine models and high fashion models. The main reason that this difference exists is because men's magazines cater to male fantasy and high fashion caters to female self-idealism and not their sexual fantasies.
As for your right to dislike homosexuals, no one can deny you that. They can call you a bigot and rightly so, but they cannot deny your right to be a bigot. Your claim that homosexuality is a communist plot leads me to believe that you have no understanding of communism. Your concern that the "joys of sodomy" will be taught in school leads me to believe that you never went to school. When did a school ever teach the joys of the missionary position either. The fact that you think Erik's "like/dislike" of gays is not relevant to this discussion leads me to believe that you do not understand Erik's argument. Erik claims that homosexual designers are unable to differentiate between their sexually charged aesthetic preferences and the aesthetic preferences of others, as if homosexuals are simply figures of homosexuality and have no interests or understanding apart from their sexual desires. This is absolutely relevant to his claims and is one of the major (though not sole) logical faults in his argument. Homosexuals' interaction with the polis in recent years has revolved around equal rights, and yes, they would like main stream culture to understand their lifestyle because understanding leads to acceptance. You may feel that understanding and accepting the gay lifestyle is offensive, but that would make you a bigot. Just as the Nazi party who did not want to understand and accept the Jewish community were bigots, and just as the Ku Klux Klan who did not want to understand and accept the African American community were bigots. On hindsight, we look at these organizations with disdain and disgust. Someday we will look at you in the same way.
Your hypothesis on why supermodels lost popularity does not convince me. How has the Internet affected the popularity of fashion models? Are you saying that because the public has more access to candid photographs of fashion models they lost interest in them? I really don't buy that considering that supermodels like Cindy Crawford were regular tabloid fodder in their heydays and they were heavily photographed. I thought you were complaining about a lack of outlets that promoted "feminine" beauty. Judging by your attractive women section it seems that there still aren't very many outlets that promote beautiful "feminine" women.
I was not trying to make it seem like the general public was responsible for the decline of the supermodel era. I think they gradually lost interest in the lives of the supermodels when they started to retire from modeling. The people in the insular high fashion world were the ones who got tired of the supermodel look. When the supermodels got older and retired they weren't replaced with other glamazons. They were replaced with women like Erin O’Connor, Stella Tennant and Kirsten Owen. The public liked the looks of the supermodels in general. You cannot prove that they didn't. It is fairly obvious that the heroin chic models lacked the classic good looks that the supermodels possessed and the general public admired.
You think the models are made up to look "feminine" when they are only made up to look glamorous or elegant. High fashion models rarely get breast implants. You are thinking of VS models. Most of the regular VS models don't do regular high fashion work and those that do don't have boob jobs. You have argued that "feminine" women cannot be made to look "masculine" at any angle so why should modeling agencies scout girls who can only sport one look? You have argued that "masculine" women can be made to look "feminine" with the use of lighting, posing and makeup so why wouldn't scouts choose girls who can be anything and therefore make more money for the agency? You are ignoring the role that modeling agencies play in the success and the promotion of models. They are the people in the fashion industry who want their models to have long lucrative careers. You are right that only a few models last well into their twenties but their agents often play a large role in the success and longevity of a model.
"Look who’s talking: the deranged lesbian who likes being whipped !"
Look who's talking: the sane heterosexual woman who LOVES being whipped for the flesh impact and the fantastic endorphin rush euphoria.
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"Lecturing us on women’s sexuality… that’s rich."
Right; you, a man, know much more about female sexuality than I, a woman.
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"Your stupid theory doesn’t hold any water"
My "stupid theory" is EVOLUTIONARY PSYCHOLOGY and sorry if science is offensive to those who prefer superstition.
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"and is unnecessarily long-winded too"
How much do complex scientific issues have to be simplified and condensed so they don't hurt your brain too much?
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"You’re just an heterophobic lesbian who hates the idea of straight women “marketing” themselves to straight men."
I am a heterosexual woman who loves the idea of straight women "marketing" themselves to straight men; I support the legalization of prostitution and I occassionally enjoy heterosexual pornography.
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"Women buy lingery to “market” themselves to straight men, so it does make sense to use a straight man’s idea of a woman to market lingerie."
A straight man's idea of a woman is not a woman's idea of what she wants to be. If psychosexual gender differences are too hard for you to understand then you are better off not reading my posts because my posts will only confuse and anger you.
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"And your stupid theory on the dichotomy existing between *arousal* and *desire*, that didn’t hold any water either, BTW."
Please do not distort my words. I said there is a "difference", not a "dichotomy", between women's *arousal* and *desire*; women's only, not men's. Dichotomy means mutual exclusivity; difference means possible disparity. Of course a woman can both be aroused by and desire the same stimuli, but she can also be aroused by that which she does not desire. Women are more aroused by music than by pornography because women can be aroused by songs while it is not even possible to feel desire for a song.
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"The only thing that proves, if anything, is that most women are too irrational to judge other women’s looks, they are too brainwashable and are easy prey for social fads and peer preassure."
Men who want to believe that women see sexuality just as men do tell themselves any sign of a difference must be because women are "irrational" and "brainwashable".
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"Erik’s like/dislike of gays is irrelevant.
Screw the homos, I demand my right, nay, I’m TAKING my goddamned right to dislike them, WTF."
Anyone is entitled to dislike whatever he or she pleases. Erik's dislike of homosexuality is his right and is relevant to this website because it influences his distortions about homosexual fashion designers.
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"And his take on Homophobia is quite spot-on, you failed to mention that."
Homophobia is an inaccurate word; I should have said Erik dislikes homosexuality.
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"It’s a communist plot run by proxy."
How is homosexuality a communist plot when:
1. Homosexuality existed long before either communist theory, let alone communist practice, existed.
2. Every single communist government in world history outlawed homosexuality, and some, like the Soviet Union, officially claimed that homosexuality did not exist in their country.
3. The most homosexuality-tolerant societies in the world are also the most capitalistic societies in the world: America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the Western European nations.
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"So you thought that you were free of “homophobia” huh?"
I am free of homophobia, in either the literal or the popular sense; I neither fear nor dislike homosexuals or homosexuality. That does not mean I support public nudity or the use of public schools to teach children about any paraphilia.
:-S
"The most attractive European individuals, as judged by people of European ancestry, look very European, whereas the most attractive non-Europeans, as judged by their co-ethnics, look less ethnic than the norms of their populations and have faces overall closer to Europeans. This is reflected in the overall picture from cosmetic surgery."
Erik, the flaw in your claims about what non-Europeans find attractive is that you depend on cosmetic surgery procedures to extrapolate conclusions about whole populations, but the minority of non-Europeans who get cosmetic surgery do NOT necessarily represent the majority of non-Europeans who do not get cosmetic surgery, and not just because they can't afford it; all Black American celebrities can afford cosmetic surgery but most of them don't get it.
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"You have to be really ignorant to believe that Pamela Anderson rose from successful nude model to an international sex symbol (1990s) because of lip injections. What about her fake breasts and fake hair? Her nude stardom resulted from luck; she ran into Hugh Hefner, a bisexual male, who happens to like masculinized bleached brunettes with fake breasts."
I did not say Pamela Anderson rose from a successful nude model to the most popular female sex symbol in the Western word in the 1990's "because of" lip injections; I said "AFTER" lip injections. I never suggested that her lip injections were the only or primary reason for her popularity with white males.
Erik, provide PROOF that Hugh Hefner is bisexual or you hurt your credibility by repeating an unsubstantiated rumor. You know damn well that the former sex partners of celebrities can make money by selling lies about their famous ex-lovers.
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"What do you mean “very, very few Asians undergo surgery”? When they have the money, the frequency is higher than rare."
"Higher than rare" is not a real answer. What percentage? Even a huge percentage can still be a minority. You STILL refuse to address my points: Why is double eyelid surgery more popular among Asians in Asia than among Asians in America - perhaps because Asians in Asia are more influenced by Asian cultures' emphasis on conformity so they get the surgery because so many other people around them do, while Asians in America are influenced by American cultures' emphasis on individualistic nonconformity? That is just my guess; if anyone has a better guess I'd be happy to read it.
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"You haven’t cited any evidence that eyelashes are thicker in African/Latina women."
I said "the look of dark, thick eyelashes that is naturally more common among African/Latina women.", meaning not that they have thicker eyelashes but that they are far more likely statistically to have very dark hair, and so their eyelashes appear thicker because they are more visible in contrast to skin color. Sorry I wasn't clear.
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"you can see that the average nose profile doesn’t approach the ski-jump profile."
I never said the average European nose profile approaches the ski-jump profile. I made it clear that I was speaking of exceptions when I said, "Nose jobs specifically to correct ski jump noses (as opposed to nose jobs for other reasons)".
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"Cosmetic surgery requires disposable income, and whites are more likely to have it than African-Americans. So don’t go into who has more surgeries. Look up what features people optimally desire"
What features *people who have plastic surgery* optimally desire does NOT prove what features *people who do not have plastic surgery* optimally desire. It's not just a question of having disposable income. All Black American celebrities have disposable income, yet the overwhelming majority of Black American celebrities do NOT get rhinoplasty.
Erik, you still haven't answered BSP's question as to why, if there is an innate preference for "more derived" features, Asian cultures did not consider double eyelids more attractive than single eyelids before 20th century modern Western media saturation.
"BTW why would designers select models that remind them of the adolescent boys theyre sexualy atracted to(acording to you,obviously sugesting pedophilia)instead of selecting these women because thats what they wished they looked like if they were females?...
Im gay , and im not sexualy atracted to high fashion models because they look like boys...im attracted by them eastheticaly because thats what i wished I looked like if I was a female.OF COURSE gay men would rather look tall,thin and aloof , rather than busty,with wide hips and plain faces."
I am a straight woman and I have always believed that gay male fashion designers choose female models as projections of their own fantasy female selves.
I knew that if I expressed this belief on this website I would lack credibility as a straight woman claiming to speak for gay men, so it is nice to have a confirmation by a gay man who is qualified to speak for gay men.
Erik's belief that gay male fashion designers are attracted to teenaged boys even if they NEVER have sex with teenaged boys is irrational. Most successful gay male designers live in places where the age of consent is 16 or lower and they choose to say no to legal, easily available sex with teenaged boys because they are not attracted to teenaged boys.
:blank:
Francine: Gisele wasn't defending skinny models; she blamed them for not eating enough. I agree that some people are naturally thin, but it is clear than a number of high-fashion models have to restrict their diet to maintain the low body mass that is a requirement for their job.
If significant groups of people have very different physical preferences from your average european then how does that fail to undermine “broad agreemant about what constitutes beauty”?
Maybe you meant to write that it does undermine the argument. The major correlates of beauty apply across cultures. The literature review I cited about people’s preferences for femininity included studies that have used European, Japanese, Chinese and other groups. Here is an additional study that had Jamaican samples (predominantly sub-Saharan African) and also reported a preference for above average femininity in women’s faces:
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Penton-Voak, I. S., Jacobson, A., Trivers, R., Populational differences in attractiveness judgements of male and female faces: Comparing British and Jamaican samples, 25(6), 355-370 (2004).
In this study, Jamaican males preferred less feminine exaggeration in women (white, Japanese, Jamaican) than British males, but the authors mentioned a confound in the form of Jamaican men preferring more feminine exaggeration for Jamaican women than for white women, but then sub-Saharan African women generally don’t have faces that look that feminine to start with.
I have no problems with major geographic populations using their own standards in international beauty pageants since I have proposed splitting these contests along the lines of broad ethnic groups and the winners from each group competing with each other in a personality contest. This avoids the problem of objectively comparing the attractiveness of women from different ethnic groups, something that cannot be done.
If you are not convinced about influential shamans being behind bizarre painful rituals, I suggest that you start with the following paper:
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Persinger MA. Religious and mystical experiences as artifacts of temporal lobe function: a general hypothesis. Percept Mot Skills 1983;57(3 Pt 2):1255-62.
In this paper, Michael Persinger cites evidence relating some brain abnormalities behind temporal lobe epilepsy (TLE) or partial-TLE symptoms that result in god beliefs and by virtue of anatomical location are undoubtedly associated with brain abnormalities related to sadomasochism, a broad spectrum of sexual disorders and a violent orientation. Shamans are notoriously often epileptic or psychotic. This would explain, among other things, why religions throughout history have been full of sadistic rituals and why the notion of salvation through pain/suffering/sacrifice has been common, and also why the zeal and fervor with which people have carried out God’s work in the form of mass murder is generally not matched by mass murder motivated by non-religious causes. Persinger and others have since authored many papers. Whereas these papers are not written for laypersons, Persinger has written a book for the general public, Neuropsychological Bases of God Beliefs, which I recommend you read.
After reading the evidence, ask yourself why would people mass-adopt painful crazy rituals when people are generally inclined to avoid pain?
Adrian: What do you mean most people find my examples of feminine beauty butt-ugly? The vast majority of people that have gone through this site have not left any comments, let alone addressed this issue. Then, there are angered homosexuals/masculinized women/feminists who have left comments in opposition and have a stronger motive to leave comments.
I haven’t been calling models transsexuals, just pointing out that a number of fashion models have the looks of male-to-female transsexuals. Alessandra Ambrosio is an obvious example, and I have never said that Adriana Lima has a transsexual look. I haven’t described fashion models as ugly.
As a general rule, men who fantasize about looking like women wish to look feminine, not like the norm among high-fashion models. In addition, it would be difficult to find men who want to look like adolescent boys. The most obvious explanation of fashion models’ looks is obvious. Much higher rates of sexual interest in underage individuals among homosexuals and bisexuals is not just in my head, but backed by a tremendous amount of evidence from history and the present.
I'm pretty sure she was defending skinny girls in the modeling biz instead of whatever you said. This was after an anorexic model died (nothing new) and her mother blamed it on her daughters job.
Who says she has to restrict her diet? Some people (like me) can eat whatever & as much as they want and never gain weight. Other people like my aunt, they can eat like a 4 year old and never be anything smaller than a size six. So not everyone who's thin is starving/restricting themselves.
Erik , youre not normal ,you like women who look like the gerbers logo with a d cup. LOL sorry dude.
Youre also not functional ,you do extensive research to justify your prefference for women that look mentally retarded,why dont you go out, buy them a beer and fuck em? it would me much easier.
Erik most heterosexual men would find this woman highly unnatractive ,borderline mental retardation. your taste is below average.
I know many heterosexual males (i do not live on a homosexual bubble you know..) and linked your page of "attractive" women ,most think the women you pick are highly unnatractive.
Im homosexual but i apreciate femenine beauty as well ,or problably better thatn you since i do not want to get an easy lay from them...
in fact ,as I commentred to you on other threads ,a FEW of the women on your atractive page are beautiful to me. example katherine haigl and lisa welch , and any heterosexual male would find them beautifull as well , so my notion of beauty is not as "abnormal" as u claim.
Dude, this is obviously ur opinion. the supermodels who make the top 25 are collected from magazines such as maxim, fhm, and stuff. these are heterosexual male mags. the women u have put on this site to compare to supermodels like alessandra ambrosio, are ugly. they have no defining features, alessandra is of italian (latin) and polish (slavic) decent; making her very sharply featured. not broad featured such as a man is. plus alessandra seems to have b cup breasts, and if ur comparing her to how she looked when she started, SHE WAS 15!!! my point is why would a supermodel decide to get only a b cup breast implant? cuz she didn't they're real.
i think you're a perv because u have these "women" from teen sites which look like they're all but 14 years old. hence the rounded features. they look like little girls. is that what u like? sorry eric, not me. i like women...even if u do say they resemble men.
Sarah: Audrina Patridge doesn’t have a face that is masculine enough to qualify as looking skanky/sexy though in a couple of years her face would look masculine enough to give her skanky looks. Sexy is a skanky-looking (requires some masculinization) attractive woman as opposed to an unattractive skanky-looking woman. Anyway, either you do not know what skanky looks are (the women in the attractive women section generally do not have skanky looks, period) or you are letting nude modeling cloud your judgment or you are simply jealous.
Adrian: I can no more explain to you what makes the woman attractive than you can explain to me how a man can find another man sexually appealing. In both cases you are either attracted or not. Don't bother trying to understand the preferences of heterosexual individuals.
Danielle: As young individuals, Naomi Campbell did not have angular facial features, but Eva Herzigova did. The reasons for the supermodels’ fame are straightforward. The supermodels were a predominantly 1980s to mid-1990s phenomenon. During this period, there was no internet in the beginning, and it hadn’t caught on much by the mid-1990s. So what the public saw was very glamorous, made-up, air-brushed pictures of the supermodels, sometimes in carefully selected poses, and the models were heavily promoted by the industry. There were no alternative industries heavily promoting feminine beauty. So why wouldn’t these women become famous?
The fashion world did change. The supermodels at their peak were too heavy for the tastes of the homosexuals (in relation to your reference to heroin chic), who wanted the models to look more like boys in their early adolescence, but the process of shifting the norms among models takes time and this process would be facilitated by increasing tolerance of homosexuality on the part of the public. You make it sound as if the public’s preferences determined who would be supermodels and the public’s boredom with them ended the supermodel era when the facts are that the homosexuals would have a harder time passing off more young-boyish-looking women as supermodels, especially with the rise of the internet, where candids of the models would be spread all over the net and people would leave all sorts of nasty comments about their looks in blogs and forums.
You talk about models needing “a certain amount of versatility to able to last.” There is no need to use make-up, breast implants, carefully-selected poses and airbrushing to make a masculine model look feminine; one could simply use a feminine model. Similarly, if one needed a masculine-looking model, why use analogous procedures to make a feminine model look masculine? Why not just use a masculine model? Why not use an attractive woman who is in the middle of the masculine-feminine range so that she can be more easily made to look more masculine or more feminine instead of leaning toward a central tendency that is clearly toward the masculine side of average? Your comment also ignores many scenarios where feminine models would be most appropriate yet masculine ones are used by the industry. And, do the homosexuals need models to last? No. Only a few big names continue to do high-fashion modeling well into their twenties; for most others it is over if their hips grow too wide and they start growing breasts. With the homosexuals increasing choosing more slender women, a very large proportion of the models have been coming from the impoverished Eastern European nations because these poor girls would be more willing to starve themselves compared to the generally better off Western European/white American girls, and there is a high turnover rate among them because the supply is greater than the demand, and the homosexuals want the ones who like boys in their early adolescence, a look that is more difficult to maintain with increasing age.
I have never portrayed a gay designer conspiracy to rob heterosexual men of what pleases them. The homosexuals are simply selecting models to suit their tastes.
Adrian: People do use ordinary-looking women to model cheap clothes, but this is not part of an alternative fashion industry. By alternatives, I mean people would know that the alternatives have nothing to do with, will not be helping and undermining the homosexual-dominated business.
Male homosexuals are primarily responsible for initiating the AIDS epidemic in the First World, and in Third World nations, whereas a superficial examination might suggest that heterosexuals are predominantly infected, a closer examination reveals that most of the infected are in sub-Saharan Africa and the reasons for their malaise have to do with unhygienic medical care practices and high rates of the down-low lifestyle, anal sex and promiscuity, i.e., behavior closer to that of homosexuals and bisexuals. So, regarding HIV infection/AIDS as a homosexuality-related illness isn’t that off-base.
The age preferences of homosexual men are variable. Whereas many are attracted to very masculine adult men, there are also plenty who are attracted to underage boys and others who are attracted to males spread over a broad age range. Why? Hint: people don’t choose their sexual attractions. I haven’t been saying that gay fashion designers are secretly pedophiles. Based on their general choice of female models (in the case of male models, they couldn’t get away with it) and strong opposition to change, it is obvious that pederastic interests are common among them.
I don’t just have an empty wish about change; I am working toward it.
Eva and Naomi are older and their heydays are behind them so they have no more baby fat reserves to cover up their angular features.
The high fashion world stopped exclusively promoting classical, commercially appealing beauties at the end of the supermodel era. Eva Herzigova and Naomi Campbell are throwbacks from that era but every other model here is a representative of the different aesthetic direction that the fashion world took.
Of course you will say that the supermodels were all "masculine" and people only thought they were beautiful because they were famous. I wonder how they became famous in the first place. You may say that designers heavily promoted them but are these current models any less promoted? Why are the high fashion models of today unable to reach the same heights of fame as Linda Evangelista and Christy Turlington?
I think the supermodel era ended when people got bored of constantly seeing a glamazon army in the catwalks and on the magazine covers. Popular culture also played a part when grunge music and style came to the forefront. Designers took their inspiration from this new movement and when they incorporated these ideas into their new collections they found that the glamazons could not represent them. Supermodels could never be anything but glamazons so when fashion needed them to be something other than glamorous they couldn't deliver. They couldn't do grunge and they certainly couldn't do heroin chic.
Models like Kate Moss, Shalom Harlow and Amber Valletta came to the forefront because they could do anything. They could be styled to look like a junkie or they could be elegant and even glamorous. They ushered in a new era where models had to have an edge. They have to have a certain amount of versatility to able to last.
You would surprised to see how some of those models you posted can transform into anything with the right styling. I have seen Rayder, Sturm and Ribeiro look very glamorous and I’ve seen them look very hard and mean. Will the "feminine" models in your "alternative fashion industry" demonstrate the same versatility? Will designers be able to go for any kind of look they want without it looking “put on” or unnatural? I don't think so.
You almost make it sound as if there is some gay designer conspiracy where they want to only promote “manly” models and rob the white, hetero men of this world of some greatly deserved erections. The designers and the modeling agencies want models that can “be anything”. Your “feminine” models may be able to look sexually appealing to some straight men but can they do anything else?
Right... an organization that is devoted to combating racism and helping to alleviate hate crimes is a real shame. Unlike you the people of the SPL center actually devote themselves to important work. You on the other hand spend your days on porn sites comparing and contrasting women to give yourself some sort of purpose. PATHETIC. The real joke here is you and this site--it serves no constructive purpose other than to make a pathetic man feel worthy against women he will never measure up to. Comparing races is a waste of time and serves no purpose other than to make one race feel more superior to another. Your criteria of beauty is NOT the Truth. If it were everyone would agree with you and they obviously don't. It doesn't matter how many "studies" you show or references you cite. Now if you'll excuse me, I've wasted enough of my time here and have more important things to do.
Whipped honey: It is not possible for Sarah to damage her credibility because she has none. You would have realized this if you had been following her comments.
Sarah: Melisande isn’t tall; she is about 5-foot-7; the rest of your nonsense has already been addressed by Whipped honey. Miranda Kerr is nowhere close to being a supermodel. True supermodels do not exist anymore, but even if you were to use this label, you can use it only for women who have a strong presence on the runway and in commercial/other modeling.
Adrian: I did not post her pictures to make the point that she could sell millions worth of merchandize. The context of this article is explained at the very beginning. What makes you think high-fashion models’ looks appeal to women in general? The evidence says no (body weight, masculinity-femininity).
Adrian: Fashion designers pick models that appeal to them. The central tendency of their choices are at odds with majority preferences, including the heterosexual rich elite (both men and women). You have cited no evidence that rich heterosexual elite have a different taste in women compared to the average person. I have cited plenty of evidence regarding people's aesthetic preferences, and in these studies it has not been documented that upper class individuals prefer more masculine-looking women. The fact is that the dominant designers, male homosexuals to be more precise, have preferences at odds with the heterosexual majority.
Of course, high-fashion models are expected to have a restricted range of physique variation because the designers would rather have them fit into their designs. I have addressed this since the very beginning, but a restricted range could be anywhere along the spectrum of physique variation. Using slender and feminine women within the 5-foot-6 to 5-foot-8 range would work very well, too. It should be obvious why the skeletal proportions of high-fashion models are generally not feminine.
This girl has a terrible body! She has no muscle tone to speak of. She isn't fat but her stomach looks soft and flabby and I'm sorry but the angle of her ass shot does not convince me that she has shapely booty. So many girls have faces and bodies like this so she is completely unremarkable. You have very poor tastes Erik. I really don't know what you are trying to prove by putting this plain girl's pictures on your site.
Anon (posting on Oct 25, 2007, 4 PM): Retards like you can’t even come up with a legitimate insult. You call Doutzen’s picture the worst that I could pick even though in it she is all made-up, and one doesn’t observe any odd expression, freckles, zits or the like. So what makes it a bad choice? Obviously the fact that her facial masculinization is clear in it. Even Danielle below you realizes this, and both her picture choices show hair hiding parts of her face, camouflaging her masculinization, as has been the case with many pictures cited by her. Then you call me a “homo” for preferring a more feminine look and describe the feminine women shown as having “huge udder like tits or mounds of fat.” Great job.
Danielle: What do you mean I am afraid of discussing Doutzen Kroes in the context of Victoria’s Secret modeling? I am not done with the series, and I need to be addressing many issues apart from lingerie modeling by Victoria’s Secret. Besides, my argument has never been that they all look transsexual, just that a lot of them do. Doutzen is not feminine but she doesn’t look like a transsexual either.
Me: Who is me? What do I need to prove? I am not saying that Alessandra is a transsexual but that she looks like a male-to-female transsexual, and the proof is in the pictures.
Krisah: Understanding men jerking off to Alessandra is easy; they are typically not of the heterosexual variety.
Old Skool: LOL! Supermodels are not collected from Maxim, FHM and STUFF. They may sometimes appear in them, but they are made famous by the fashion industry. I don’t believe I am using pictures of Alessandra above from when she was 15. If a flat-chested woman wanted to get breast implants, some would want to make it look as natural as possible and hence would get small implants. The women I have been showing are 18-plus and with rare exceptions, they look it, and the exceptions are typically used for purposes such as showing that a feminine and slender girl who looks 16 going by her face would be rejected in favor a slender 16-year-old who looks masculine.
Also, a few things to note for other posters here:
-Erik proposes that a preference for more "derived" features is due to their pedomorphism, which is considered near-universally attractive, and is considered feminine. Yet, again, large cheekbones and jaws, while less-derived than smaller ones, have nothing to do with femininity, so something else must be at play here.
-Epicanthic folds have nothing to do with derivation, but Erik just thinks they're more preffered.
"Erik, you still haven’t answered BSP’s question as to why, if there is an innate preference for “more derived” features, Asian cultures did not consider double eyelids more attractive than single eyelids before 20th century modern Western media saturation. "
Exactly. I think well over 20% of Korea's population (just South Korea, not sure about North) naturally lack epicanthic folds, and yet surgery to remove it, out of all east asian majority nations, is highest in South Korea. Even if there were an innate preference for non-epicanthic eyes on average, the surgery rate seen among them now for their removal is just too high. That rate would only be around for a truly ugly, repulsive trait if it were so wholly innate.
Besides, exactly what other "ethnic features" are you reffering to?There's such considerable overlap among human ethnic groups among the cranio-facial structure, and for them all, there's only a few distinctive traits truly setting them all apart. Compared to Europeans, how different would africans look if you made their jaws flatter and their orbits less dense and round? How different would east asians look compared to europeans if their facial profiles wern't so flat?
Although you could certainly consider less distinctive traits like the overall size of the jaws and cheekbones ethnic traitd due to greatly differing group averages, let me ask you this- would this japanese woman look better if she had cheek reduction and the like as you alluded to?:
http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/1323/947f7f9af9934aff35f315dfv7.jpg
I doubt it. Well, it wouldn't make a difference. Although she seems to be in her early 30's, and her mouth seems rather large, she has extremely feminine, soft, and gracile features overall, despite having very large cheeks and jaw. I think you once mentioned elsewhere on this site that overal robustness shouldn't be confounded with feminity, right?
She's just one example, but a very prominent one I'd say. Look- in terms of some cranio-facial features, I, again, wouldn't deny that ones shifted somewhat more towards european norms are more desired, but this seems to hold true moreso for women, this is a rather small, broad classification overall, and likewise, why haven't you provided what you think are in the proper aestethic range of nasal structure for non-europeans? And please stop reffering to nasal differences under the banner of how derived they are? Primates only had such larger noses due to bigger nasal cavities allowing them to smell better, and differences among nasal structures among human populations are due to climactic differences. If these could be classified as more "derived", noses with very tall set bridges, projecting out extensively from the face, and just being huge and meaty overall would fit that. Yet how many people really find that attractive?
Der Wanderer:
You are making the same illegitimate assumption as Erik. LINGERIE COMPANIES ARE NOT MARKETING THEIR PRODUCT TO MEN! If you can understand this, then you can understand why designers do not choose models according to their fulfillment of heterosexual male aesthetic preferences. Selecting women who fulfill the fantasy of heterosexual men would be a deterrent to heterosexual women. Women do not select their wardrobe based on its ability to arouse men (at least not exclusively). They select it based on its ability to fulfill their ideal self-image, which is the same reason anyone selects their wardrobe. The image of the soft-core porn star is hardly the ideal for most women. For instance, the most revealing and sexual items VS sells are also their most expensive items: garter belts, hosiery, lace, bustiers, etc. A lingerie ensemble like this can easily be more than $100 even at its cheapest. Victoria's Secret is playing to the cross section between female sexuality and luxury, not sexuality and availability or male fantasy, and this all plays into notions of female empowerment. Even in a sexual context and ideal female self-image must be imbued with empowerment, which translates into sexual exclusivity. The model most fulfill this embodiment of sexual exclusivity, which in our day and age is extremely thin (most likely because of associations between gluttony and lust) and "fierce," which is usually expressed with a hardened look and furrowed brow, almost a glare. On several seasons of America's Next Top Model, you will find that the panel of judges differentiate between men's magazine models and high fashion models. The main reason that this difference exists is because men's magazines cater to male fantasy and high fashion caters to female self-idealism and not their sexual fantasies.
As for your right to dislike homosexuals, no one can deny you that. They can call you a bigot and rightly so, but they cannot deny your right to be a bigot. Your claim that homosexuality is a communist plot leads me to believe that you have no understanding of communism. Your concern that the "joys of sodomy" will be taught in school leads me to believe that you never went to school. When did a school ever teach the joys of the missionary position either. The fact that you think Erik's "like/dislike" of gays is not relevant to this discussion leads me to believe that you do not understand Erik's argument. Erik claims that homosexual designers are unable to differentiate between their sexually charged aesthetic preferences and the aesthetic preferences of others, as if homosexuals are simply figures of homosexuality and have no interests or understanding apart from their sexual desires. This is absolutely relevant to his claims and is one of the major (though not sole) logical faults in his argument. Homosexuals' interaction with the polis in recent years has revolved around equal rights, and yes, they would like main stream culture to understand their lifestyle because understanding leads to acceptance. You may feel that understanding and accepting the gay lifestyle is offensive, but that would make you a bigot. Just as the Nazi party who did not want to understand and accept the Jewish community were bigots, and just as the Ku Klux Klan who did not want to understand and accept the African American community were bigots. On hindsight, we look at these organizations with disdain and disgust. Someday we will look at you in the same way.
Your hypothesis on why supermodels lost popularity does not convince me. How has the Internet affected the popularity of fashion models? Are you saying that because the public has more access to candid photographs of fashion models they lost interest in them? I really don't buy that considering that supermodels like Cindy Crawford were regular tabloid fodder in their heydays and they were heavily photographed. I thought you were complaining about a lack of outlets that promoted "feminine" beauty. Judging by your attractive women section it seems that there still aren't very many outlets that promote beautiful "feminine" women.
I was not trying to make it seem like the general public was responsible for the decline of the supermodel era. I think they gradually lost interest in the lives of the supermodels when they started to retire from modeling. The people in the insular high fashion world were the ones who got tired of the supermodel look. When the supermodels got older and retired they weren't replaced with other glamazons. They were replaced with women like Erin O’Connor, Stella Tennant and Kirsten Owen. The public liked the looks of the supermodels in general. You cannot prove that they didn't. It is fairly obvious that the heroin chic models lacked the classic good looks that the supermodels possessed and the general public admired.
You think the models are made up to look "feminine" when they are only made up to look glamorous or elegant. High fashion models rarely get breast implants. You are thinking of VS models. Most of the regular VS models don't do regular high fashion work and those that do don't have boob jobs. You have argued that "feminine" women cannot be made to look "masculine" at any angle so why should modeling agencies scout girls who can only sport one look? You have argued that "masculine" women can be made to look "feminine" with the use of lighting, posing and makeup so why wouldn't scouts choose girls who can be anything and therefore make more money for the agency? You are ignoring the role that modeling agencies play in the success and the promotion of models. They are the people in the fashion industry who want their models to have long lucrative careers. You are right that only a few models last well into their twenties but their agents often play a large role in the success and longevity of a model.
I AM A LESBIAN? THAT'S NEWS TO ME!
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Look who's talking: the sane heterosexual woman who LOVES being whipped for the flesh impact and the fantastic endorphin rush euphoria.
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Right; you, a man, know much more about female sexuality than I, a woman.
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My "stupid theory" is EVOLUTIONARY PSYCHOLOGY and sorry if science is offensive to those who prefer superstition.
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How much do complex scientific issues have to be simplified and condensed so they don't hurt your brain too much?
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I am a heterosexual woman who loves the idea of straight women "marketing" themselves to straight men; I support the legalization of prostitution and I occassionally enjoy heterosexual pornography.
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A straight man's idea of a woman is not a woman's idea of what she wants to be. If psychosexual gender differences are too hard for you to understand then you are better off not reading my posts because my posts will only confuse and anger you.
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Please do not distort my words. I said there is a "difference", not a "dichotomy", between women's *arousal* and *desire*; women's only, not men's. Dichotomy means mutual exclusivity; difference means possible disparity. Of course a woman can both be aroused by and desire the same stimuli, but she can also be aroused by that which she does not desire. Women are more aroused by music than by pornography because women can be aroused by songs while it is not even possible to feel desire for a song.
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Men who want to believe that women see sexuality just as men do tell themselves any sign of a difference must be because women are "irrational" and "brainwashable".
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Anyone is entitled to dislike whatever he or she pleases. Erik's dislike of homosexuality is his right and is relevant to this website because it influences his distortions about homosexual fashion designers.
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Homophobia is an inaccurate word; I should have said Erik dislikes homosexuality.
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How is homosexuality a communist plot when:
1. Homosexuality existed long before either communist theory, let alone communist practice, existed.
2. Every single communist government in world history outlawed homosexuality, and some, like the Soviet Union, officially claimed that homosexuality did not exist in their country.
3. The most homosexuality-tolerant societies in the world are also the most capitalistic societies in the world: America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the Western European nations.
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I am free of homophobia, in either the literal or the popular sense; I neither fear nor dislike homosexuals or homosexuality. That does not mean I support public nudity or the use of public schools to teach children about any paraphilia.
:-S
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Erik, the flaw in your claims about what non-Europeans find attractive is that you depend on cosmetic surgery procedures to extrapolate conclusions about whole populations, but the minority of non-Europeans who get cosmetic surgery do NOT necessarily represent the majority of non-Europeans who do not get cosmetic surgery, and not just because they can't afford it; all Black American celebrities can afford cosmetic surgery but most of them don't get it.
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I did not say Pamela Anderson rose from a successful nude model to the most popular female sex symbol in the Western word in the 1990's "because of" lip injections; I said "AFTER" lip injections. I never suggested that her lip injections were the only or primary reason for her popularity with white males.
Erik, provide PROOF that Hugh Hefner is bisexual or you hurt your credibility by repeating an unsubstantiated rumor. You know damn well that the former sex partners of celebrities can make money by selling lies about their famous ex-lovers.
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"Higher than rare" is not a real answer. What percentage? Even a huge percentage can still be a minority. You STILL refuse to address my points: Why is double eyelid surgery more popular among Asians in Asia than among Asians in America - perhaps because Asians in Asia are more influenced by Asian cultures' emphasis on conformity so they get the surgery because so many other people around them do, while Asians in America are influenced by American cultures' emphasis on individualistic nonconformity? That is just my guess; if anyone has a better guess I'd be happy to read it.
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I said "the look of dark, thick eyelashes that is naturally more common among African/Latina women.", meaning not that they have thicker eyelashes but that they are far more likely statistically to have very dark hair, and so their eyelashes appear thicker because they are more visible in contrast to skin color. Sorry I wasn't clear.
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I never said the average European nose profile approaches the ski-jump profile. I made it clear that I was speaking of exceptions when I said, "Nose jobs specifically to correct ski jump noses (as opposed to nose jobs for other reasons)".
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What features *people who have plastic surgery* optimally desire does NOT prove what features *people who do not have plastic surgery* optimally desire. It's not just a question of having disposable income. All Black American celebrities have disposable income, yet the overwhelming majority of Black American celebrities do NOT get rhinoplasty.
Erik, you still haven't answered BSP's question as to why, if there is an innate preference for "more derived" features, Asian cultures did not consider double eyelids more attractive than single eyelids before 20th century modern Western media saturation.
Adrian, thank you!:
Adrian wrote:
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I am a straight woman and I have always believed that gay male fashion designers choose female models as projections of their own fantasy female selves.
I knew that if I expressed this belief on this website I would lack credibility as a straight woman claiming to speak for gay men, so it is nice to have a confirmation by a gay man who is qualified to speak for gay men.
Erik's belief that gay male fashion designers are attracted to teenaged boys even if they NEVER have sex with teenaged boys is irrational. Most successful gay male designers live in places where the age of consent is 16 or lower and they choose to say no to legal, easily available sex with teenaged boys because they are not attracted to teenaged boys.
:blank:
Francine: Gisele wasn't defending skinny models; she blamed them for not eating enough. I agree that some people are naturally thin, but it is clear than a number of high-fashion models have to restrict their diet to maintain the low body mass that is a requirement for their job.
Danielle: What do you mean by the following?
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Maybe you meant to write that it does undermine the argument. The major correlates of beauty apply across cultures. The literature review I cited about people’s preferences for femininity included studies that have used European, Japanese, Chinese and other groups. Here is an additional study that had Jamaican samples (predominantly sub-Saharan African) and also reported a preference for above average femininity in women’s faces:
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In this study, Jamaican males preferred less feminine exaggeration in women (white, Japanese, Jamaican) than British males, but the authors mentioned a confound in the form of Jamaican men preferring more feminine exaggeration for Jamaican women than for white women, but then sub-Saharan African women generally don’t have faces that look that feminine to start with.
I have no problems with major geographic populations using their own standards in international beauty pageants since I have proposed splitting these contests along the lines of broad ethnic groups and the winners from each group competing with each other in a personality contest. This avoids the problem of objectively comparing the attractiveness of women from different ethnic groups, something that cannot be done.
If you are not convinced about influential shamans being behind bizarre painful rituals, I suggest that you start with the following paper:
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In this paper, Michael Persinger cites evidence relating some brain abnormalities behind temporal lobe epilepsy (TLE) or partial-TLE symptoms that result in god beliefs and by virtue of anatomical location are undoubtedly associated with brain abnormalities related to sadomasochism, a broad spectrum of sexual disorders and a violent orientation. Shamans are notoriously often epileptic or psychotic. This would explain, among other things, why religions throughout history have been full of sadistic rituals and why the notion of salvation through pain/suffering/sacrifice has been common, and also why the zeal and fervor with which people have carried out God’s work in the form of mass murder is generally not matched by mass murder motivated by non-religious causes. Persinger and others have since authored many papers. Whereas these papers are not written for laypersons, Persinger has written a book for the general public, Neuropsychological Bases of God Beliefs, which I recommend you read.
After reading the evidence, ask yourself why would people mass-adopt painful crazy rituals when people are generally inclined to avoid pain?
Adrian: What do you mean most people find my examples of feminine beauty butt-ugly? The vast majority of people that have gone through this site have not left any comments, let alone addressed this issue. Then, there are angered homosexuals/masculinized women/feminists who have left comments in opposition and have a stronger motive to leave comments.
I haven’t been calling models transsexuals, just pointing out that a number of fashion models have the looks of male-to-female transsexuals. Alessandra Ambrosio is an obvious example, and I have never said that Adriana Lima has a transsexual look. I haven’t described fashion models as ugly.
As a general rule, men who fantasize about looking like women wish to look feminine, not like the norm among high-fashion models. In addition, it would be difficult to find men who want to look like adolescent boys. The most obvious explanation of fashion models’ looks is obvious. Much higher rates of sexual interest in underage individuals among homosexuals and bisexuals is not just in my head, but backed by a tremendous amount of evidence from history and the present.
I'm pretty sure she was defending skinny girls in the modeling biz instead of whatever you said. This was after an anorexic model died (nothing new) and her mother blamed it on her daughters job.
Who says she has to restrict her diet? Some people (like me) can eat whatever & as much as they want and never gain weight. Other people like my aunt, they can eat like a 4 year old and never be anything smaller than a size six. So not everyone who's thin is starving/restricting themselves.
Erik , youre not normal ,you like women who look like the gerbers logo with a d cup. LOL sorry dude.
Youre also not functional ,you do extensive research to justify your prefference for women that look mentally retarded,why dont you go out, buy them a beer and fuck em? it would me much easier.
oh ,yes ,the above message came from me (samoan boy with no laptop)
der..
why dont you go munch on eriks ass? thats all youre good at.
Erik most heterosexual men would find this woman highly unnatractive ,borderline mental retardation. your taste is below average.
I know many heterosexual males (i do not live on a homosexual bubble you know..) and linked your page of "attractive" women ,most think the women you pick are highly unnatractive.
Im homosexual but i apreciate femenine beauty as well ,or problably better thatn you since i do not want to get an easy lay from them...
in fact ,as I commentred to you on other threads ,a FEW of the women on your atractive page are beautiful to me. example katherine haigl and lisa welch , and any heterosexual male would find them beautifull as well , so my notion of beauty is not as "abnormal" as u claim.
Dude, this is obviously ur opinion. the supermodels who make the top 25 are collected from magazines such as maxim, fhm, and stuff. these are heterosexual male mags. the women u have put on this site to compare to supermodels like alessandra ambrosio, are ugly. they have no defining features, alessandra is of italian (latin) and polish (slavic) decent; making her very sharply featured. not broad featured such as a man is. plus alessandra seems to have b cup breasts, and if ur comparing her to how she looked when she started, SHE WAS 15!!! my point is why would a supermodel decide to get only a b cup breast implant? cuz she didn't they're real.
i think you're a perv because u have these "women" from teen sites which look like they're all but 14 years old. hence the rounded features. they look like little girls. is that what u like? sorry eric, not me. i like women...even if u do say they resemble men.
Sarah: Audrina Patridge doesn’t have a face that is masculine enough to qualify as looking skanky/sexy though in a couple of years her face would look masculine enough to give her skanky looks. Sexy is a skanky-looking (requires some masculinization) attractive woman as opposed to an unattractive skanky-looking woman. Anyway, either you do not know what skanky looks are (the women in the attractive women section generally do not have skanky looks, period) or you are letting nude modeling cloud your judgment or you are simply jealous.
Adrian: I can no more explain to you what makes the woman attractive than you can explain to me how a man can find another man sexually appealing. In both cases you are either attracted or not. Don't bother trying to understand the preferences of heterosexual individuals.
Danielle: As young individuals, Naomi Campbell did not have angular facial features, but Eva Herzigova did. The reasons for the supermodels’ fame are straightforward. The supermodels were a predominantly 1980s to mid-1990s phenomenon. During this period, there was no internet in the beginning, and it hadn’t caught on much by the mid-1990s. So what the public saw was very glamorous, made-up, air-brushed pictures of the supermodels, sometimes in carefully selected poses, and the models were heavily promoted by the industry. There were no alternative industries heavily promoting feminine beauty. So why wouldn’t these women become famous?
The fashion world did change. The supermodels at their peak were too heavy for the tastes of the homosexuals (in relation to your reference to heroin chic), who wanted the models to look more like boys in their early adolescence, but the process of shifting the norms among models takes time and this process would be facilitated by increasing tolerance of homosexuality on the part of the public. You make it sound as if the public’s preferences determined who would be supermodels and the public’s boredom with them ended the supermodel era when the facts are that the homosexuals would have a harder time passing off more young-boyish-looking women as supermodels, especially with the rise of the internet, where candids of the models would be spread all over the net and people would leave all sorts of nasty comments about their looks in blogs and forums.
You talk about models needing “a certain amount of versatility to able to last.” There is no need to use make-up, breast implants, carefully-selected poses and airbrushing to make a masculine model look feminine; one could simply use a feminine model. Similarly, if one needed a masculine-looking model, why use analogous procedures to make a feminine model look masculine? Why not just use a masculine model? Why not use an attractive woman who is in the middle of the masculine-feminine range so that she can be more easily made to look more masculine or more feminine instead of leaning toward a central tendency that is clearly toward the masculine side of average? Your comment also ignores many scenarios where feminine models would be most appropriate yet masculine ones are used by the industry. And, do the homosexuals need models to last? No. Only a few big names continue to do high-fashion modeling well into their twenties; for most others it is over if their hips grow too wide and they start growing breasts. With the homosexuals increasing choosing more slender women, a very large proportion of the models have been coming from the impoverished Eastern European nations because these poor girls would be more willing to starve themselves compared to the generally better off Western European/white American girls, and there is a high turnover rate among them because the supply is greater than the demand, and the homosexuals want the ones who like boys in their early adolescence, a look that is more difficult to maintain with increasing age.
I have never portrayed a gay designer conspiracy to rob heterosexual men of what pleases them. The homosexuals are simply selecting models to suit their tastes.
Adrian: People do use ordinary-looking women to model cheap clothes, but this is not part of an alternative fashion industry. By alternatives, I mean people would know that the alternatives have nothing to do with, will not be helping and undermining the homosexual-dominated business.
Male homosexuals are primarily responsible for initiating the AIDS epidemic in the First World, and in Third World nations, whereas a superficial examination might suggest that heterosexuals are predominantly infected, a closer examination reveals that most of the infected are in sub-Saharan Africa and the reasons for their malaise have to do with unhygienic medical care practices and high rates of the down-low lifestyle, anal sex and promiscuity, i.e., behavior closer to that of homosexuals and bisexuals. So, regarding HIV infection/AIDS as a homosexuality-related illness isn’t that off-base.
The age preferences of homosexual men are variable. Whereas many are attracted to very masculine adult men, there are also plenty who are attracted to underage boys and others who are attracted to males spread over a broad age range. Why? Hint: people don’t choose their sexual attractions. I haven’t been saying that gay fashion designers are secretly pedophiles. Based on their general choice of female models (in the case of male models, they couldn’t get away with it) and strong opposition to change, it is obvious that pederastic interests are common among them.
I don’t just have an empty wish about change; I am working toward it.
Eva and Naomi are older and their heydays are behind them so they have no more baby fat reserves to cover up their angular features.
The high fashion world stopped exclusively promoting classical, commercially appealing beauties at the end of the supermodel era. Eva Herzigova and Naomi Campbell are throwbacks from that era but every other model here is a representative of the different aesthetic direction that the fashion world took.
Of course you will say that the supermodels were all "masculine" and people only thought they were beautiful because they were famous. I wonder how they became famous in the first place. You may say that designers heavily promoted them but are these current models any less promoted? Why are the high fashion models of today unable to reach the same heights of fame as Linda Evangelista and Christy Turlington?
I think the supermodel era ended when people got bored of constantly seeing a glamazon army in the catwalks and on the magazine covers. Popular culture also played a part when grunge music and style came to the forefront. Designers took their inspiration from this new movement and when they incorporated these ideas into their new collections they found that the glamazons could not represent them. Supermodels could never be anything but glamazons so when fashion needed them to be something other than glamorous they couldn't deliver. They couldn't do grunge and they certainly couldn't do heroin chic.
Models like Kate Moss, Shalom Harlow and Amber Valletta came to the forefront because they could do anything. They could be styled to look like a junkie or they could be elegant and even glamorous. They ushered in a new era where models had to have an edge. They have to have a certain amount of versatility to able to last.
You would surprised to see how some of those models you posted can transform into anything with the right styling. I have seen Rayder, Sturm and Ribeiro look very glamorous and I’ve seen them look very hard and mean. Will the "feminine" models in your "alternative fashion industry" demonstrate the same versatility? Will designers be able to go for any kind of look they want without it looking “put on” or unnatural? I don't think so.
You almost make it sound as if there is some gay designer conspiracy where they want to only promote “manly” models and rob the white, hetero men of this world of some greatly deserved erections. The designers and the modeling agencies want models that can “be anything”. Your “feminine” models may be able to look sexually appealing to some straight men but can they do anything else?
Right... an organization that is devoted to combating racism and helping to alleviate hate crimes is a real shame. Unlike you the people of the SPL center actually devote themselves to important work. You on the other hand spend your days on porn sites comparing and contrasting women to give yourself some sort of purpose. PATHETIC. The real joke here is you and this site--it serves no constructive purpose other than to make a pathetic man feel worthy against women he will never measure up to. Comparing races is a waste of time and serves no purpose other than to make one race feel more superior to another. Your criteria of beauty is NOT the Truth. If it were everyone would agree with you and they obviously don't. It doesn't matter how many "studies" you show or references you cite. Now if you'll excuse me, I've wasted enough of my time here and have more important things to do.
Whipped honey: It is not possible for Sarah to damage her credibility because she has none. You would have realized this if you had been following her comments.
Sarah: Melisande isn’t tall; she is about 5-foot-7; the rest of your nonsense has already been addressed by Whipped honey. Miranda Kerr is nowhere close to being a supermodel. True supermodels do not exist anymore, but even if you were to use this label, you can use it only for women who have a strong presence on the runway and in commercial/other modeling.
Adrian: I did not post her pictures to make the point that she could sell millions worth of merchandize. The context of this article is explained at the very beginning. What makes you think high-fashion models’ looks appeal to women in general? The evidence says no (body weight, masculinity-femininity).
So Der Arschloch has finally revealed himself as a racist bigoted idiot. Why am I not surprised?
Adrian: Fashion designers pick models that appeal to them. The central tendency of their choices are at odds with majority preferences, including the heterosexual rich elite (both men and women). You have cited no evidence that rich heterosexual elite have a different taste in women compared to the average person. I have cited plenty of evidence regarding people's aesthetic preferences, and in these studies it has not been documented that upper class individuals prefer more masculine-looking women. The fact is that the dominant designers, male homosexuals to be more precise, have preferences at odds with the heterosexual majority.
Of course, high-fashion models are expected to have a restricted range of physique variation because the designers would rather have them fit into their designs. I have addressed this since the very beginning, but a restricted range could be anywhere along the spectrum of physique variation. Using slender and feminine women within the 5-foot-6 to 5-foot-8 range would work very well, too. It should be obvious why the skeletal proportions of high-fashion models are generally not feminine.
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