Adrian: The women that I have shown in the attractive women section are in the low- to mid-range of the medically normal/healthy weight range, and you describe them as big-breasted and thunder-thighed! The average person can see how mentally sound you are.
I have not described homosexuals as mentally ill; just stated and cited evidence that this community has high rates of psychiatric disorders. There are plenty of homosexuals with no mental illness. Mental normality is a different issue from mental illness. Something normal functions in accordance with design. I have seen no evidence that homosexuality results from design, but plenty of evidence to the contrary, and hence have no reason to believe that homosexuals are mentally normal.
I haven't described Northern Europeans as "the perfect race."
Maybe if you had better taste,and used better examples of “femenine beauty” that do not come from cheap adult sites,without bad teeth ,bad hair,bad skin,that dont scream “white trash”, your site would be much more credible.
Wow, I can't believe someone else agrees with me that Giselle is masculine, I thought I was the only one that thought that. However, with the exception of Giselle, the reason why the VS models appear to have masculine bodies is mainly due to them being so so skinny and tall. It is therefore the lack of fat and their long limberness that makes their bodies appear non curvaceous. In regards to Adriana Lima I think she is the sexiest girl on the planet and have always noticed her slight masculinity forehead (due to her ethnicity) but it gives her a sexy look, besides the rest of her face is feminine.
You have lost time and effort on this extensive "research" ,just to justify your taste for big breasted,thunder thighed women with no eyebrows,cheekbones or chins that look like retards????
oh wait no! not only to justify that , you also used to call homosexual individuals mentally ill and that nothern europeans are the perfect race.
YOURE SERIOUSLY FUCKED UP! LOL
But in all , I find it very amusing and sad minstead of insulting.
I feel compassion for you erik , but also simpaty, beause youre dellusions are funny and quite entertaining well.
Kate Moss, while maybe unappealing to most (average,ordinary people with ordinary vulgar tastes) is 100 times much more atractive than the retard specimens on your "atractive" list of women with pancake faces.
Were you molested as a child erik?
If most people agree on "beauty" how come most people find your examples butt-uhglee?
I understand how some people, or even most people as u claim, find models unappealing or unimpressive,leaning to a more "feminized"look, but to claim most people find them ,or should find them masculine, to an extent of even calling them transexuals is ridiculous and exagerated.There is no need for such exageration ,its juvenile and unnecesary.Very few people would find the likes of Alessandra Ambrossio or Adrina Lima ugly or masculine ,unnapealing? indiferent? yes ,maybe , but ugly? transexual? nah! u know thats not the case.
BTW why would designers select models that remind them of the adolescent boys theyre sexualy atracted to(acording to you,obviously sugesting pedophilia)instead of selecting these women because thats what they wished they looked like if they were females? the latter makes much more sense. Has it ever passed your mind that these designers are not after all atracted to "adolescent boys" sexualy? and rather that they would want to look like adolescent boys themselves?
Im gay , and im not sexualy atracted to high fashion models because they look like boys...im attracted by them eastheticaly because thats what i wished I looked like if I was a female. OF COURSE gay men would rather look tall,thin and aloof , rather than busty,with wide hips and plain faces. DUH. Your sugestions of pedophilia make no sense,thats all on your head...you got issues.
This woman looks mentally retarded.
She has the ugliest teeth I've seen in a long time.
Is this what "most" people consider atractive? as erik claims?
If 5 people claim shes decent lookin I rest my case I swear.
I seriously think this woman is retarded and has some sort of anomaly.
Erm... have you ever walked into a k-mart? or a Marshall's store???
Many companies use average looking women (on the thin side of course ,it just photographs better) to market their non expensive clothing lines to middle and working classes.
Erik...AIDS is not a homosexual related illness, is a human illness...there are more straight people with AIDS and who are Hiv possitive than homosexuals...
Youre extremely naive and obtuse.
Why would gay fashion designers pick skinny women with sharp feautures because they are secret or unconciously pedophiles?
Gay males are greatly and mostly attractive to hyper masculine adult males.Why would they be attracted to boys who look like skinny girls or viceversa? It makes no sense.
Your wish wont be granted...u wont see a "hottie" with no chin and a flat as a pancake face anytime soon marketing beauty just because thats what gives you an erection LOL.
Attractive, somewhat pretty , but very pedestrian...she cant close her mouth giving her an always drooling sorta stupid look.
Nothign special or unusual about her as to pretend she could sell millions of dollars if featured on an ad campaign.
Models faces make people puzzled,make people think and comment,the tipical "cutie "doesnt... its quite obvious.
That the average man would do her anytime of the week doesnt mean she can sell anything to women.
btw women dress for other women ,either for social acceptance, or to cause envy on them,not for men.Women know most men wouldnt give a crap about what shes wearing in terms of style ,as long as its flatering to her body and shape.high-fashion models appeal to women beacause they represent status,not because theyre "pretty".
Models are not picked from the average population for being "beautiful" or "femenine" they are selected because they have a particular look that translates better in photography and runway shows.The fashion industry itself is not necesarily about beauty ,is about impact,attitude and controversy.
I understand that the majority of people are atracted to more clasicaly beautiful women ,that are more "femenine" so to speak.
But majority ,meaning the average joe/jane ,knows nothing about fashion ,or photography ,or has a particularly refined taste...
Majorities being made out of average people,have average ,ordinary tastes.
The fashion industry concentrates on the population that can afford its luxury items,wich have a more refined and particular taste and want to stand out from the average working or middle class person.Therefore women of higher social status percieve beauty and style in very different way the average woman does,so do men.
Men of higher social status wont be attracted by the same type of women the average joe preffers.Therefore pretendig this people should be adressed using average or ordinary women as models,makes no sense.
Models serve the sole purpose of looking a particular way on pictures or fitting into sample sizes (clothing samples just look better and are easier to make in certain sizes).Designers simply cannot go thru all the hassle of fitting each model individualy to make the best out of their shapes.If a designer were to have 15 voluptuous women as with noticeably differents shapes and fitting needs it would make all the process just ridiculously tedius.Plus how would a designer solve an emergency situation ,example,a model gets sick and cant do the job, then who will fit into that outfit???Are they supossed to magically fitted all over again or fin a girl with the same exact curves?(having in mind they would be ideally voluptous and ultra "femenine") Voluptous,or average bodies(wich are not the same of course) have too wide of a range of shapes... in oposition to the typical fashion model bodies, who tend to be more similar due to lack of curves.
Thin fashion models are a necesity of the fashion industry for more than one reasson.
While a voluptous model ,would be the femenine "ideal" it would complicate the process to an unpractical extreme.
Comercial models are closer to the average person and are often used to market diverse products that are not fashion or luxury items (such as fragrances)
The tipical ,average ,ordinary "hot" girl ,would simply not appeal to those of higher status and an aquired taste.
Hugh Ristik: Thanks for informing me about the study on WHR and intelligence in women. I read it and will comment on it in a new article. In the meantime, here is the paper for interested readers.
Whipped honey: Stop wasting my time. I gave you three issues; where the surgery places the person compared to ethnic norms, what is the direction of change and what is the overall picture from multiple procedures. The most attractive European individuals, as judged by people of European ancestry, look very European, whereas the most attractive non-Europeans, as judged by their co-ethnics, look less ethnic than the norms of their populations and have faces overall closer to Europeans. This is reflected in the overall picture from cosmetic surgery.
I agree with the webmaster of awfulplasticsurgery.com regarding his classifications of bad lip enhancements. Try asking around, and focus on people of European ancestry.
You have to be really ignorant to believe that Pamela Anderson rose from successful nude model to an international sex symbol (1990s) because of lip injections. What about her fake breasts and fake hair? Her nude stardom resulted from luck; she ran into Hugh Hefner, a bisexual male, who happens to like masculinized bleached brunettes with fake breasts. When you have masculinized fashion models in the limelight and the biggest men’s magazine is run by a bisexual male, if a woman like Pamela Anderson is heavily promoted in made-up form and at a time when the internet hasn’t caught on, should it be surprising that someone like Pamela ends up being a sex symbol?
What do you mean “very, very few Asians undergo surgery”? When they have the money, the frequency is higher than rare. You saw the Tyra Banks video in a previous article. The testimony of an Asian physician in it argues against your notion.
Let us see how many cosmetic surgery procedures you have named among Northern Europeans that are directed toward shifting facial features toward the non-European side of the North European average.
You mentioned 4 procedures. The 4th one, eyeliner tattoos, is not a form of cosmetic surgery. The darkness of eyelashes is irrelevant; plenty of Europeans have dark eyelashes, and Europeans have all hair colors in substantial numbers, i.e., no hair color is more or less European. You haven’t cited any evidence that eyelashes are thicker in African/Latina women.
You mentioned an uncommon surgical procedure, cheekbone augmentation, but cited no evidence that it serves to make Europeans lean toward Native Americans.
You mentioned lip injections, but as I have shown above and also presented data elsewhere within site about soft tissue measurements among people of European ancestry, the end result, on average, does not lean toward the non-European side of the North European average.
Your assertion about nose jobs is laughable. The man shown on top was a secondary rhinoplasty patient, whose pictures appeared in a paper that I provided (pdf) in a previous article. His original nose had a concave profile, not as extreme as you see on top of this page. His first surgery was unsatisfactory and then the second surgery added implants. Anyway, I have showed this 3-D assessment of Northwest European averages, and you can see that the average nose profile doesn’t approach the ski-jump profile. Below you will find another example.
In the image above, the first row pictures and the second row pictures are taken from the following papers, respectively:
Quote:
Moss, J. P., Linney, A. D., and Lowey, M. N., The use of three-dimensional techniques in facial esthetics, Semin Orthod, 1, 94 (1995).
Aung, S.C., Foo, C. L., and Lee, S. T, Three dimensional laser scan assessment of the Oriental nose with a new classification of Oriental nasal types, Br J Plast Surg 53, 109 (2000).
The image shows average 3-D assessments of the following samples: English young adults, Bangladeshi teenagers (ages 13-18) and adult Chinese women. Based on the averages, it is easy to predict that compared to the Northern European sample, the frequency of concave noses would be higher among East Asians and convex noses higher in the South Asians (more obvious in the male sample in the picture; should be more obvious as one goes west toward the Middle East and if one uses adults rather than teenagers). The man on top of this page went from a less European to a more European nose, which is common among white individuals seeking nose jobs, and this is the opposite of what I asked you to come up with evidence for. Look at me...citing all these references. Come up with comparable citations/evidence to the contrary or don’t waste my time.
East Asians in America are ethnically diverse. Koreans have some of the highest rates of a single upper eyelid crease, and hence they would be more likely to seek double eyelid surgery than other Asians.
Cosmetic surgery requires disposable income, and whites are more likely to have it than African-Americans. So don’t go into who has more surgeries. Look up what features people optimally desire, especially if you have controlled laboratory studies (and I have cited a detailed study on East Asian preferences elsewhere) and make your inferences about desired overall face shape among populations.
As to ideal brow shape , I seem to preffer a slight arch reaching its greater height on the exterior of the irises that end on a slighter higher point than the beggining or "birth" of the eyebrow.
a horizontal " ( " shape tends to give a sad or worried look in my opinion.
From the computer generated images,I find #4 to be the most appealing from the caucasian and asian group,and #5 on the black group.I agree that feminization to an extreme makes the faces of the first unapealling,it tends to expand the face too much horizontally and it gives the nose a sort-of funny ,cartoony look.
From the mannequin graphic I agree that they are much better looking than the real life model.
I have browsed your atractive women section ,and tho' many stand out to me as ordinary and vulgar(not because of their style or poses,but because of their physical type and faces) some are indeed very beautiful, and helped get your point.
I found these women to be AMAZINGLY beautiful facialy:
1-Lisa Welch -perfect ,a living doll
2-Nikki Case from penthouse-femenine without looking bland or ordinary, and to some extent ,I do believe that facialy ,she resembles a fashion model.Her feautures are not paticulary soft or rounded.
3-Rita from Karups is very beautiful ,despite her awful style...
on the other hand some of your other examples are almost laughable to me, like natasja from domai(page 2) or lindsey marshall from page 2,she looks very bird-like,same for katie from atk galleria,shes is simply horrible to me,she looks sad and too child-like (and theres "somebody" around talking about the commonness of pedophiliac tastes on homosexual men...)
On the other hand I agree that actress catherine haigl is beautiful,extremely beautiful.
This is coming from a homosexual male of 27 yrs old with no interest in adolescent boys...hehe
Tho I agree that that homosexual males dominate the fashion industry pushing an unhealthy unrealistic ideal of beauty that does in fact mimics those looks of adolescent boys, I do not blame it on pedophiliac or sexual fantasies of them desiring adolescent boys sexually.In my opinion is more due to them having fantasies at an early age of becoming fashion designers on the future, so these designers problably tried on ,or made some femenine clothing for themselves ,maybe their self image in the mirror of a 12 year old boy in mommies dress stucked and thats why they select models who remind them of that image? It could possibly be caused by the fashion dolls(barbie,etc) girls play with and they wished they had? Fashion dolls tend to be very skinny with abnormaly long proportions and narrow hips,this could have stucked in their mind as the ideal female form.(despite barbie dolls rather large breasts)
In conclusion...I think your site would me much more credible if :
1-you used better examples of femenine beauty in your atractive section.
2-you stop insinuating that gay male designers are atracted to adolescent boys
3-You include women of other ethnic gruops on your atractive women page.Come on...you claim this site adresses white "western"women...there are plenty of latin ,asian and black women that are "western" and you could easily include some examples,no one expects you to go into the amazonian jungle to capture aborigens...just 3 major groups living in the United states,asian,black ,hispanic,you could easily find fitting examples.
Danielle: I am not sure of Leonard’s purpose, but I am not saying that Leonard is going about it in the wrong manner. I am saying that should someone have the idea of using pictures of overweight/obese women to counter the impact of thin fashion models, then this would be a bad idea. We shall see whether feminine beauties will be able to compete with the supermodels.
Whipped honey: I didn’t say that there is something wrong with the picture, but the picture is a famous one and Leonard has aped it. The issue is not about the use of the specific pictures shown but using models with excess body fat as models to counter fashion media imagery.
Twisty: I didn’t rail against the thinness of the fashion models. The supermodels’ thinness is more appealing to me than the corpulence of the obese women.
we live in a time where women's role is not longer limited to child bearing, which its quality is advertised by feminine physical features. women nowerdays do many jobs that requre physical strength etc, and thus why women with masculanised features are thought to be more attractive. maybe this point has been spoken on before, but i do not know as i have no read every comment, if it is, then plz egnore it if not then i would be interested on your thouths on the matter. thanks
Erik, you are really starting to suck, I thought you were above the anti 'skinny' woman bandwagon. I can see how it would be unhealthy for naturally more endomorphic women to attempt to look model like, but please, it is obvious to anyone with a brain that the women shown in the first picture are not 'underweight' - whatever their weight may be. This rubbish has gone far enough, and woman who is not at least a bit chubby is branded 'underweight' these days.
Di: Women who diet unnecessarily because of the influence of thin fashion models need to know why the fashion industry finds very thin women hot. Answering the why requires revealing some unflattering correlates of the dominant designers. Don't call it homophobic. And no, I didn't vote for Bush and have never held a favorable opinion of him.
Erik, your ignorance of female sexuality is so extreme that I have come to the conclusion that your sexual experience is limited to being a john with prostitutes paid to tell you what you want to hear, or very few non-prostitute partners, or you may be a virgin.
Look who's talking: the deranged lesbian who likes being whipped !
Lecturing us on women's sexuality... that's rich.
Your stupid theory doesn't hold any water, and is unnecessarily long-winded too, spare us the BS. You're just an heterophobic lesbian who hates the idea of straight women "marketing" themselves to straight men. All your "theories" boil down to that, say it clearly and be done with it. Women buy lingery to "market" themselves to straight men, so it does make sense to use a straight man's idea of a woman to market lingerie. Your talking outrageous BS, as usual.
And your stupid theory on the dichotomy existing between *arousal* and *desire*, that didn't hold any water either, BTW. The only thing that proves, if anything, is that most women are too irrational to judge other women's looks, they are too brainwashable and are easy prey for social fads and peer preassure. That's why a site like this is needed, thank you for reminding us =)
Erik's like/dislike of gays is irrelevant.
Screw the homos, I demand my right, nay, I'm TAKING my goddamned right to dislike them, WTF.
And his take on Homophobia is quite spot-on, you failed to mention that.
It's a communist plot run by proxy.
It works like this.
Mr. Homo-enabler :
Ooooooh ... so you don't like homos, huh?
Well, then you are INSANE, you need to be REENGINEERED in order to "fix" that "problem" of yours.
You, and the WHOLE OF SOCIETY.
Ooooooh ... so you don't care anymore about the poor homos?
Well, now we're going to parade them dowm the streets, NAKED.
I see ... you are still not "cured" enough, you need another "fix"
Ooooooh ... so you got used to that, huh?
Now, we're going to lecture YOUR CHILDREN on the joys of sodomy on YOUR SCHOOLS paid by YOUR TAXES.
So you thought that you were free of "homophobia" huh?
Think twice
"Anyone who buys into it will fall within three categories: the sexually inexperienced, the homophobic, or the uneducated. Erik is obviously not the former of these three, so he must be one of the first two."
I am certain Erik is sexually experienced; either he has had only prostitute partners paid to tell him whatever he wants to hear, or very few partners, or he is a virgin.
Erik's "Information on Homosexuals" website blog entry entitled "Gays Harassing Straights" describes gays in Provincetown, Massachusetts, USA, calling straights "breeders" and "baby makers" and one man committing an unspecified act of assault against a woman who signed a petition to ban gay marriage in Massachusetts, the only American state where it is legal.
Erik thinks that if gays merely call straights "breeders" and "baby makers" and commit one homosexual commits one unspecified assault against one heterosexual, that is "harassment", but if a whole crowd of Latvians "shower homosexuals with human feces, eggs and rotten food!" that is not harassment but rather something to report as fun and amusing!
>:-(
I have yet to find artractive the women erik use as examples of "femeninity"...
They all look like victims...women that look weak,with a look that screams low self esteem,and just totally ordinary,vulgar and above all CHEAP.
I find it funny that this guy wants this type of girl to be in the industry instead of women with unusual,exotic looks.
My guess is that hes atracted to women who look unthreatening to him, therefore his dislike for women with a strong ,athletic,independent,unusual or agressive look.
Im just looking at all those pictures of pudgy faced women with no chins,eyebrows and bad hair he uses as examples of the "holy grail of femeninity" and I just laugh...histerically laugh and laugh again.
Erik...you just got issues and BAD taste.
Adriana is B-E-A-U-T-I-F-U-L ,if theres "masculinity" in her...she was truly blessed with it.
As I commented on another post, you might use a certain "clinical" or "scientific" criteria to identify "femenine" traits... but you dont hold the magic key to "true beauty",as to tell people what they should find atractive.Beauty is an OPINION,not a fact.
Many people could,and will find beauty on these "unatractive" "masculine" "adolescent boy" women that you insist of pushing as "wrong". Even much more atractive than the ordinary and ugly women you use as examples.
Maybe if you had better taste,and used better examples of "femenine beauty" that do not come from cheap adult sites,without bad teeth ,bad hair,bad skin,that dont scream "white trash", your site would be much more credible.
Adrian: The women that I have shown in the attractive women section are in the low- to mid-range of the medically normal/healthy weight range, and you describe them as big-breasted and thunder-thighed! The average person can see how mentally sound you are.
I have not described homosexuals as mentally ill; just stated and cited evidence that this community has high rates of psychiatric disorders. There are plenty of homosexuals with no mental illness. Mental normality is a different issue from mental illness. Something normal functions in accordance with design. I have seen no evidence that homosexuality results from design, but plenty of evidence to the contrary, and hence have no reason to believe that homosexuals are mentally normal.
I haven't described Northern Europeans as "the perfect race."
Adrian :
This is Adriana Lima with some relatives :
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c10/NinaNina19/Models/87d4130e5b074f1472acc0f26ae8a1.jpg
Hmmmm... it looks like "brown trash" to me, doesn't it?
Define "exotic"
I mean ... those fugly brownies are EVERYWHERE !
You have to realize something :
- Rousseau is DEAD
- Paul Gauguin is DEAD
- Margaret Mead is DEAD
- Claude Lévi-Strauss soon will be DEAD (G-d willing)
You are living in the past, buddy.
Catch up with modernity and stick to the facts or get back to Samoa.
Wow, I can't believe someone else agrees with me that Giselle is masculine, I thought I was the only one that thought that. However, with the exception of Giselle, the reason why the VS models appear to have masculine bodies is mainly due to them being so so skinny and tall. It is therefore the lack of fat and their long limberness that makes their bodies appear non curvaceous. In regards to Adriana Lima I think she is the sexiest girl on the planet and have always noticed her slight masculinity forehead (due to her ethnicity) but it gives her a sexy look, besides the rest of her face is feminine.
You have lost time and effort on this extensive "research" ,just to justify your taste for big breasted,thunder thighed women with no eyebrows,cheekbones or chins that look like retards????
oh wait no! not only to justify that , you also used to call homosexual individuals mentally ill and that nothern europeans are the perfect race.
YOURE SERIOUSLY FUCKED UP! LOL
But in all , I find it very amusing and sad minstead of insulting.
I feel compassion for you erik , but also simpaty, beause youre dellusions are funny and quite entertaining well.
Kate Moss, while maybe unappealing to most (average,ordinary people with ordinary vulgar tastes) is 100 times much more atractive than the retard specimens on your "atractive" list of women with pancake faces.
Were you molested as a child erik?
forgot to "sign" the above message.
If most people agree on "beauty" how come most people find your examples butt-uhglee?
I understand how some people, or even most people as u claim, find models unappealing or unimpressive,leaning to a more "feminized"look, but to claim most people find them ,or should find them masculine, to an extent of even calling them transexuals is ridiculous and exagerated.There is no need for such exageration ,its juvenile and unnecesary.Very few people would find the likes of Alessandra Ambrossio or Adrina Lima ugly or masculine ,unnapealing? indiferent? yes ,maybe , but ugly? transexual? nah! u know thats not the case.
BTW why would designers select models that remind them of the adolescent boys theyre sexualy atracted to(acording to you,obviously sugesting pedophilia)instead of selecting these women because thats what they wished they looked like if they were females? the latter makes much more sense. Has it ever passed your mind that these designers are not after all atracted to "adolescent boys" sexualy? and rather that they would want to look like adolescent boys themselves?
Im gay , and im not sexualy atracted to high fashion models because they look like boys...im attracted by them eastheticaly because thats what i wished I looked like if I was a female. OF COURSE gay men would rather look tall,thin and aloof , rather than busty,with wide hips and plain faces. DUH. Your sugestions of pedophilia make no sense,thats all on your head...you got issues.
I had had had to join danielle and not from twistys...
I cant be that wrong...can erik ,or someone,anyboy pleasse explain to me what makes this woman atractive? what?
http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/elkie.2s.jpg
This woman looks mentally retarded.
She has the ugliest teeth I've seen in a long time.
Is this what "most" people consider atractive? as erik claims?
If 5 people claim shes decent lookin I rest my case I swear.
I seriously think this woman is retarded and has some sort of anomaly.
Erm... have you ever walked into a k-mart? or a Marshall's store???
Many companies use average looking women (on the thin side of course ,it just photographs better) to market their non expensive clothing lines to middle and working classes.
Erik...AIDS is not a homosexual related illness, is a human illness...there are more straight people with AIDS and who are Hiv possitive than homosexuals...
Youre extremely naive and obtuse.
Why would gay fashion designers pick skinny women with sharp feautures because they are secret or unconciously pedophiles?
Gay males are greatly and mostly attractive to hyper masculine adult males.Why would they be attracted to boys who look like skinny girls or viceversa? It makes no sense.
Your wish wont be granted...u wont see a "hottie" with no chin and a flat as a pancake face anytime soon marketing beauty just because thats what gives you an erection LOL.
Attractive, somewhat pretty , but very pedestrian...she cant close her mouth giving her an always drooling sorta stupid look.
Nothign special or unusual about her as to pretend she could sell millions of dollars if featured on an ad campaign.
Models faces make people puzzled,make people think and comment,the tipical "cutie "doesnt... its quite obvious.
That the average man would do her anytime of the week doesnt mean she can sell anything to women.
btw women dress for other women ,either for social acceptance, or to cause envy on them,not for men.Women know most men wouldnt give a crap about what shes wearing in terms of style ,as long as its flatering to her body and shape.high-fashion models appeal to women beacause they represent status,not because theyre "pretty".
Models are not picked from the average population for being "beautiful" or "femenine" they are selected because they have a particular look that translates better in photography and runway shows.The fashion industry itself is not necesarily about beauty ,is about impact,attitude and controversy.
I understand that the majority of people are atracted to more clasicaly beautiful women ,that are more "femenine" so to speak.
But majority ,meaning the average joe/jane ,knows nothing about fashion ,or photography ,or has a particularly refined taste...
Majorities being made out of average people,have average ,ordinary tastes.
The fashion industry concentrates on the population that can afford its luxury items,wich have a more refined and particular taste and want to stand out from the average working or middle class person.Therefore women of higher social status percieve beauty and style in very different way the average woman does,so do men.
Men of higher social status wont be attracted by the same type of women the average joe preffers.Therefore pretendig this people should be adressed using average or ordinary women as models,makes no sense.
Models serve the sole purpose of looking a particular way on pictures or fitting into sample sizes (clothing samples just look better and are easier to make in certain sizes).Designers simply cannot go thru all the hassle of fitting each model individualy to make the best out of their shapes.If a designer were to have 15 voluptuous women as with noticeably differents shapes and fitting needs it would make all the process just ridiculously tedius.Plus how would a designer solve an emergency situation ,example,a model gets sick and cant do the job, then who will fit into that outfit???Are they supossed to magically fitted all over again or fin a girl with the same exact curves?(having in mind they would be ideally voluptous and ultra "femenine") Voluptous,or average bodies(wich are not the same of course) have too wide of a range of shapes... in oposition to the typical fashion model bodies, who tend to be more similar due to lack of curves.
Thin fashion models are a necesity of the fashion industry for more than one reasson.
While a voluptous model ,would be the femenine "ideal" it would complicate the process to an unpractical extreme.
Comercial models are closer to the average person and are often used to market diverse products that are not fashion or luxury items (such as fragrances)
The tipical ,average ,ordinary "hot" girl ,would simply not appeal to those of higher status and an aquired taste.
Hugh Ristik: Thanks for informing me about the study on WHR and intelligence in women. I read it and will comment on it in a new article. In the meantime, here is the paper for interested readers.
Whipped honey: Stop wasting my time. I gave you three issues; where the surgery places the person compared to ethnic norms, what is the direction of change and what is the overall picture from multiple procedures. The most attractive European individuals, as judged by people of European ancestry, look very European, whereas the most attractive non-Europeans, as judged by their co-ethnics, look less ethnic than the norms of their populations and have faces overall closer to Europeans. This is reflected in the overall picture from cosmetic surgery.
I agree with the webmaster of awfulplasticsurgery.com regarding his classifications of bad lip enhancements. Try asking around, and focus on people of European ancestry.
You have to be really ignorant to believe that Pamela Anderson rose from successful nude model to an international sex symbol (1990s) because of lip injections. What about her fake breasts and fake hair? Her nude stardom resulted from luck; she ran into Hugh Hefner, a bisexual male, who happens to like masculinized bleached brunettes with fake breasts. When you have masculinized fashion models in the limelight and the biggest men’s magazine is run by a bisexual male, if a woman like Pamela Anderson is heavily promoted in made-up form and at a time when the internet hasn’t caught on, should it be surprising that someone like Pamela ends up being a sex symbol?
What do you mean “very, very few Asians undergo surgery”? When they have the money, the frequency is higher than rare. You saw the Tyra Banks video in a previous article. The testimony of an Asian physician in it argues against your notion.
Let us see how many cosmetic surgery procedures you have named among Northern Europeans that are directed toward shifting facial features toward the non-European side of the North European average.
You mentioned 4 procedures. The 4th one, eyeliner tattoos, is not a form of cosmetic surgery. The darkness of eyelashes is irrelevant; plenty of Europeans have dark eyelashes, and Europeans have all hair colors in substantial numbers, i.e., no hair color is more or less European. You haven’t cited any evidence that eyelashes are thicker in African/Latina women.
You mentioned an uncommon surgical procedure, cheekbone augmentation, but cited no evidence that it serves to make Europeans lean toward Native Americans.
You mentioned lip injections, but as I have shown above and also presented data elsewhere within site about soft tissue measurements among people of European ancestry, the end result, on average, does not lean toward the non-European side of the North European average.
Your assertion about nose jobs is laughable. The man shown on top was a secondary rhinoplasty patient, whose pictures appeared in a paper that I provided (pdf) in a previous article. His original nose had a concave profile, not as extreme as you see on top of this page. His first surgery was unsatisfactory and then the second surgery added implants. Anyway, I have showed this 3-D assessment of Northwest European averages, and you can see that the average nose profile doesn’t approach the ski-jump profile. Below you will find another example.
In the image above, the first row pictures and the second row pictures are taken from the following papers, respectively:
Quote:
The image shows average 3-D assessments of the following samples: English young adults, Bangladeshi teenagers (ages 13-18) and adult Chinese women. Based on the averages, it is easy to predict that compared to the Northern European sample, the frequency of concave noses would be higher among East Asians and convex noses higher in the South Asians (more obvious in the male sample in the picture; should be more obvious as one goes west toward the Middle East and if one uses adults rather than teenagers). The man on top of this page went from a less European to a more European nose, which is common among white individuals seeking nose jobs, and this is the opposite of what I asked you to come up with evidence for. Look at me...citing all these references. Come up with comparable citations/evidence to the contrary or don’t waste my time.
East Asians in America are ethnically diverse. Koreans have some of the highest rates of a single upper eyelid crease, and hence they would be more likely to seek double eyelid surgery than other Asians.
Cosmetic surgery requires disposable income, and whites are more likely to have it than African-Americans. So don’t go into who has more surgeries. Look up what features people optimally desire, especially if you have controlled laboratory studies (and I have cited a detailed study on East Asian preferences elsewhere) and make your inferences about desired overall face shape among populations.
As to ideal brow shape , I seem to preffer a slight arch reaching its greater height on the exterior of the irises that end on a slighter higher point than the beggining or "birth" of the eyebrow.
a horizontal " ( " shape tends to give a sad or worried look in my opinion.
From the computer generated images,I find #4 to be the most appealing from the caucasian and asian group,and #5 on the black group.I agree that feminization to an extreme makes the faces of the first unapealling,it tends to expand the face too much horizontally and it gives the nose a sort-of funny ,cartoony look.
From the mannequin graphic I agree that they are much better looking than the real life model.
I have browsed your atractive women section ,and tho' many stand out to me as ordinary and vulgar(not because of their style or poses,but because of their physical type and faces) some are indeed very beautiful, and helped get your point.
I found these women to be AMAZINGLY beautiful facialy:
1-Lisa Welch -perfect ,a living doll
2-Nikki Case from penthouse-femenine without looking bland or ordinary, and to some extent ,I do believe that facialy ,she resembles a fashion model.Her feautures are not paticulary soft or rounded.
3-Rita from Karups is very beautiful ,despite her awful style...
on the other hand some of your other examples are almost laughable to me, like natasja from domai(page 2) or lindsey marshall from page 2,she looks very bird-like,same for katie from atk galleria,shes is simply horrible to me,she looks sad and too child-like (and theres "somebody" around talking about the commonness of pedophiliac tastes on homosexual men...)
On the other hand I agree that actress catherine haigl is beautiful,extremely beautiful.
This is coming from a homosexual male of 27 yrs old with no interest in adolescent boys...hehe
Tho I agree that that homosexual males dominate the fashion industry pushing an unhealthy unrealistic ideal of beauty that does in fact mimics those looks of adolescent boys, I do not blame it on pedophiliac or sexual fantasies of them desiring adolescent boys sexually.In my opinion is more due to them having fantasies at an early age of becoming fashion designers on the future, so these designers problably tried on ,or made some femenine clothing for themselves ,maybe their self image in the mirror of a 12 year old boy in mommies dress stucked and thats why they select models who remind them of that image? It could possibly be caused by the fashion dolls(barbie,etc) girls play with and they wished they had? Fashion dolls tend to be very skinny with abnormaly long proportions and narrow hips,this could have stucked in their mind as the ideal female form.(despite barbie dolls rather large breasts)
In conclusion...I think your site would me much more credible if :
1-you used better examples of femenine beauty in your atractive section.
2-you stop insinuating that gay male designers are atracted to adolescent boys
3-You include women of other ethnic gruops on your atractive women page.Come on...you claim this site adresses white "western"women...there are plenty of latin ,asian and black women that are "western" and you could easily include some examples,no one expects you to go into the amazonian jungle to capture aborigens...just 3 major groups living in the United states,asian,black ,hispanic,you could easily find fitting examples.
Danielle: I am not sure of Leonard’s purpose, but I am not saying that Leonard is going about it in the wrong manner. I am saying that should someone have the idea of using pictures of overweight/obese women to counter the impact of thin fashion models, then this would be a bad idea. We shall see whether feminine beauties will be able to compete with the supermodels.
Whipped honey: I didn’t say that there is something wrong with the picture, but the picture is a famous one and Leonard has aped it. The issue is not about the use of the specific pictures shown but using models with excess body fat as models to counter fashion media imagery.
Twisty: I didn’t rail against the thinness of the fashion models. The supermodels’ thinness is more appealing to me than the corpulence of the obese women.
we live in a time where women's role is not longer limited to child bearing, which its quality is advertised by feminine physical features. women nowerdays do many jobs that requre physical strength etc, and thus why women with masculanised features are thought to be more attractive. maybe this point has been spoken on before, but i do not know as i have no read every comment, if it is, then plz egnore it if not then i would be interested on your thouths on the matter. thanks
Erik, you are really starting to suck, I thought you were above the anti 'skinny' woman bandwagon. I can see how it would be unhealthy for naturally more endomorphic women to attempt to look model like, but please, it is obvious to anyone with a brain that the women shown in the first picture are not 'underweight' - whatever their weight may be. This rubbish has gone far enough, and woman who is not at least a bit chubby is branded 'underweight' these days.
Carolyn: Of course, not all fashion designers are gay and all homosexuals do not share the same preferences. However, there is a high frequency of psychiatric disorders among homosexuals, and a careful examination reveals that the increased prevalence of mental illnesses among homosexuals is largely unaccounted for by stigma, prejudice, discrimination and victimization. So what makes homosexuals mentally normal?
Movsepia: I know that Beth is a lesbian, but it doesn't change the fact that she was strongly insulted in the pictures. It is common for lesbians to have had sex with men and/or have experienced sexual attraction to men at some point of their life.
Di: Women who diet unnecessarily because of the influence of thin fashion models need to know why the fashion industry finds very thin women hot. Answering the why requires revealing some unflattering correlates of the dominant designers. Don't call it homophobic. And no, I didn't vote for Bush and have never held a favorable opinion of him.
Whipped Phoney:
Look who's talking: the deranged lesbian who likes being whipped !
Lecturing us on women's sexuality... that's rich.
Your stupid theory doesn't hold any water, and is unnecessarily long-winded too, spare us the BS. You're just an heterophobic lesbian who hates the idea of straight women "marketing" themselves to straight men. All your "theories" boil down to that, say it clearly and be done with it. Women buy lingery to "market" themselves to straight men, so it does make sense to use a straight man's idea of a woman to market lingerie. Your talking outrageous BS, as usual.
And your stupid theory on the dichotomy existing between *arousal* and *desire*, that didn't hold any water either, BTW. The only thing that proves, if anything, is that most women are too irrational to judge other women's looks, they are too brainwashable and are easy prey for social fads and peer preassure. That's why a site like this is needed, thank you for reminding us =)
Erik's like/dislike of gays is irrelevant.
Screw the homos, I demand my right, nay, I'm TAKING my goddamned right to dislike them, WTF.
And his take on Homophobia is quite spot-on, you failed to mention that.
It's a communist plot run by proxy.
It works like this.
Mr. Homo-enabler :
They NEED "homophobia"
They create it
Billy:
"Whipped Honey: stay cool."
Billy, stay cool yourself. I agree with you 100%.
"Anyone who buys into it will fall within three categories: the sexually inexperienced, the homophobic, or the uneducated. Erik is obviously not the former of these three, so he must be one of the first two."
I am certain Erik is sexually experienced; either he has had only prostitute partners paid to tell him whatever he wants to hear, or very few partners, or he is a virgin.
Erik is homophobic.
Erik's "Information on Homosexuals" website
Erik's "The Nature of Homosexuality" book
To give you an idea of the level of his vitriol, Erik's "Information on Homosexuals" website blog entry entitled "The Latvian attitude toward gay pride: How do Latvians deal with gay pride? They shower homosexuals with human feces, eggs and rotten food!"
Erik's "Information on Homosexuals" website blog entry entitled "Gays Harassing Straights" describes gays in Provincetown, Massachusetts, USA, calling straights "breeders" and "baby makers" and one man committing an unspecified act of assault against a woman who signed a petition to ban gay marriage in Massachusetts, the only American state where it is legal.
Erik thinks that if gays merely call straights "breeders" and "baby makers" and commit one homosexual commits one unspecified assault against one heterosexual, that is "harassment", but if a whole crowd of Latvians "shower homosexuals with human feces, eggs and rotten food!" that is not harassment but rather something to report as fun and amusing!
>:-(
I have yet to find artractive the women erik use as examples of "femeninity"...
They all look like victims...women that look weak,with a look that screams low self esteem,and just totally ordinary,vulgar and above all CHEAP.
I find it funny that this guy wants this type of girl to be in the industry instead of women with unusual,exotic looks.
My guess is that hes atracted to women who look unthreatening to him, therefore his dislike for women with a strong ,athletic,independent,unusual or agressive look.
Im just looking at all those pictures of pudgy faced women with no chins,eyebrows and bad hair he uses as examples of the "holy grail of femeninity" and I just laugh...histerically laugh and laugh again.
Erik...you just got issues and BAD taste.
Adriana is B-E-A-U-T-I-F-U-L ,if theres "masculinity" in her...she was truly blessed with it.
As I commented on another post, you might use a certain "clinical" or "scientific" criteria to identify "femenine" traits... but you dont hold the magic key to "true beauty",as to tell people what they should find atractive.Beauty is an OPINION,not a fact.
Many people could,and will find beauty on these "unatractive" "masculine" "adolescent boy" women that you insist of pushing as "wrong". Even much more atractive than the ordinary and ugly women you use as examples.
Maybe if you had better taste,and used better examples of "femenine beauty" that do not come from cheap adult sites,without bad teeth ,bad hair,bad skin,that dont scream "white trash", your site would be much more credible.
Beth Ditto is openly gay.
which face shape do you consider to be the most beautiful or/and feminine? i usually consider diamond, donno why though?
btw, what do you think of Haifa wehbe? Also, what about 'beauty spots' as she has two!
http://www.248am.com/images/haifa.jpg
http://haifawehbe.free.fr/news/bikini/haifa1.jpg
which face shape do you consider to be the most beautiful? or feminine? or both?
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