hmmm, weird. Regarding the first guy you posted, I always hear ski-slope noses descriped as a non-white feature yet the only people I regularly see them on seem to be whites, negroes have straight noses and asians have straight-convex noses. I'd say the first guy added more definition to his nose rather than made his nose 'whiter' although highly defined features are more likely to be caucasian, on average.
Using ape pictures to contrast ancestral features and "derived" (white) features does not earn you any brownie points Erik. Were you too scared to compare non-white features with white ones and then attempt to call white features more desirable? Your assertion that the preference for white features over non-white features is intrinsic is pretty damn offensive and it's another example of you confusing your opinion with actual fact.
Erik doesn't have the balls to come out and say that he thinks derived (white) features are prettier and more "feminine" than ancestral (non-white) features. He will tip toe around the issue and try to assert that non-whites are constantly trying to look more white and that whites never try to look less white.
Your "evidence" that Beyonce has had a nose job is suspect because the pictures are undated and the one on the right is obviously heavily airbrushed.
This was taken in January 2001 which was before her big-haired "Austin Powers in Goldmember phase" that is depicted in the plastic surgery "before photo".
Erik,
I have followed this entire thread. Very interesting.
Even though I, too, prefer thinner women with smaller breasts, your points about the models cited in Sports Illustrated seem undeniable. I confess that I never gave it much thought before.
My impression of why heterosexual men buy the Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition is that it is one of the few times in our society where the "ogling" of women is considered acceptable. If men bring SI home and "check out the women," even their wives won't object.
Best,
Jim
Exhibit A proving plastic surgeons's definition of "deformities" is nonsense:
Michael Jackson's post-surgery face is free of all "deformities" and is the ugliest face on Earth!
Plastic surgeons define "deformity" as "anything we say it is to get people to pay to change it" AND take each feature out of context from its surroundings. Yes, Miranda Kerr has a somewhat broad nose - which is proportional to her somewhat broad face. A narrow nose on a broad face would look badly proportioned and unbalanced.
Michael Jackson's natural face full of "deformities" was merely homely; Michael Jackson's face at his career peak after some plastic surgery was free of "deformities" and much more handsome; Michael Jackson's current face after much more plastic surgery is STILL free of "deformities" and is the ugliest face on Earth, which tells you how much "deformities" have to do with attractiveness!
Oh, and Denzel Washington's always natural face is full of "deformities" and is one of the most handsome faces in the world.
Whipped Honey said: My point: Erik, you have NOT proved that nonwhite people’s cosmetic surgery procedures IN GENERAL create results outside the norm for their racial/ethnic groups.
I agree with you that many of these nonwhite surgical procedures are still within the normal range of features for their groups. Yet there seems to be a pattern of those alterations tending in the direction of what Erik calls "derived" features, and away from certain ethnic features, even if still inside the normal range for that ethnicity. Plastic surgery among whites does not exhibit this same tendency.
Erik said: The simple fact is that European facial norms are overall the most derived among human populations (Fig. 4), and people generally tend to prefer overall facial features among their co-ethnics that are somewhat more derived compared to average and especially ancestral features.
I can guess what you mean by "derived," but perhaps you could explain its meaning more explicitly? Also, what would be an explanation for why Europeans have more derived facial features?
Erik, if white people's lip injections being within European norms proves they aren't trying to "look nonwhite", then nonwhite people's cosmetic procedures being within their racial/ethnic norms proves they aren't trying to "look more derived".
You quote a controlled scientific study to support the conclusion that White people's lip enhancement is not designed to make them look more like nonwhites because the results are still well within European norms, without mentioning the fact that that study says, "This could be due to technical or financial limitations of the procedure. Some patients can only justify the cost of a single ampoule of Restylane. Additionally, without local anesthetic nerve blockade, injection of more than a single ampoule becomes very uncomfortable; thus, in both cases the patients may accept a lesser result." The conductors of the study acknowledge that the patients may very well have been forced to SETTLE for lips within European norms because they could not afford more or handle the anesthesia for more. Note that among rich White celebrities who can afford more, lip injections bigger than European norms are very common.
Quote:
"In short, non-Europeans tend to have a mixture of admiration, neutral feelings and dislike for different physical features of European populations as well as various aspects of Western societies. The admired features cannot be explained in terms of the dominance of Western culture because this does not explain the neutrally-regarded and disliked features."
I agree that "Nonwhite people want to look white" is a lie. If nonwhite people want to "look white", how come I've never heard of nonwhite people getting cosmetic procedures to attain artificial freckles, or Black women with a healthy body mass index getting their behinds surgically flattened to look more like the typical White woman's behind (not to be confused with liposuction on overweight behinds), or Blacks getting their lips reduced to the extreme thinness of many Northern Europeans' lips (the clearly mentally ill self-mutilator Michael Jackson is not representative of mentally normal Blacks), or those nonwhites with generally thicker hair than Whites, such as Blacks and Latinos, having hair folicles removed to create the thinner-haired White look? There are plenty of physical features that are typical of or unique to White people that nonwhite people do NOT want.
My point: Erik, you have NOT proved that nonwhite people's cosmetic surgery procedures IN GENERAL create results outside the norm for their racial/ethnic groups. Not only is your nonwhite study sample too small to reach any statistical conclusions (two celebrities plus two anonymous people), but even within that meaninglessly small study sample, you do not even address the issue of whether their cosmetic surgery results were within the norm for their respective racial/ethnic groups. My guess is that, in three cases out of four, the answer is yes; Tyra Banks' and Beyonce Knowles' nose jobs are still within the norms for Black Americans (which is why many people cannot even tell those two have nose jobs), and among the two anonymous people photographed, the Black man's nose job is well within the norm for Black Americans. Only one of your four examples, the Asian woman with the nose job, has results that appear to be POSSIBLY outside the norm for her ethnicity, and I'm not even sure about that since you don't say what her ethnicity is.
As for East Asian women's double eyelid surgery, which does create a result outside their ethnic norm, I do not know the percentage of East Asian women who get this surgery, but I've lived in California which has a HUGE East Asian population and MOST of the East Asian women I saw there did not have double eyelid surgery. So it appears that they do not want to "look more derived".
If the fact that White people's lip injections are usually within European norms (and that may be purely the result of inability to afford more expensive lip injections bigger than European norms, which are very popular with rich White celebrities) proves White people who get lip injections aren't trying to "look nonwhite", then the very possible fact that nonwhite people's cosmetic surgery is usually within their ethnic norms (prove it or disprove it - you didn't bother to gather data on this) proves nonwhite people aren't trying to "look more derived". You can't have it both ways.
:smirk:
Well, well, who other than 8D would be the first to comment and by using an alias (Der Wanderer!)? Damn, 8D, do not impersonate others. I changed "Der Wanderer" to 8D.
Plastic surgeons define "deformity" as "anything we say it is to get people to pay to change it".
None of the women here had a "deformed" nose by any objective standard, with the possible exception of the woman with the narrow middle vault only if she had trouble breathing easily. A real deformity is something that interferes with the nose's ability to perform its natural function, such as a very narrow middle vault or deviated septum that makes breathing difficult, or a hole in the nose such as can be caused by habitual cocaine use.
Great beauties who suffer from these nose "deformities":
Some of the greatest beauties ever photographed suffer from nose "deformities" because plastic surgeons' definitions of nose "deformities" is ARBITRARY NONSENSE.
:kiss:
Der Wanderer:
"Define “structure” cause I don’t think we speak the same language."
By "structure" I mean (and I may add to this definition when I'm not sleepy) a strong bone structure causing a very clear shape. Alessandra's pretty good structure is very visible in your most recent post's third photograph; click on it for a larger size and you will see that each of her facial features stands out distinctly and separately from the others, without any particular one being overly strong so as to overwhelm her whole face.
Delta Goodrem's brow bone, nose, cheekbones, and jaw bone do not stand out as much as Alessandra Ambrosio's do. Camille from Teen Stars Magazine has brow bone, nose, cheekbones and jaw bone that stand out little or not at all. Camille is going to age very badly because, as the saying goes, all that's left at midlife is bone structure, and Camille has very weak bone structure. Her face is going to become a ball of dough.
"For instance: you’re a Miranda Kerr advocate: But she looks like a Swiss Cheese Ball !"
I never said I am a "Miranda Kerr advocate". All I ever said about Miranda Kerr is that contrary to plastic surgeons' self-serving propaganda, her nose is not deformed and looks fine. I never said a word about any part of her other than her nose.
I suspect that the attractiveness value is positive to neutral in middle eastern populations, and neutral to negative in non-middle eastern populations.
I've noticed that, like in these photos, a many women get plastic surgeries to alleviate hook-like structural differences on their noses. What's the typical attractive value for that trait, considering how oommon it is among middle eastern populations?
Sidhatzer4ever: There are no “masculine” and “unattractive” sections within this site unless you count the sections on “sexy fashion models” and “top fashion models,” the former being all white and the latter close to almost all white. This article addresses an international beauty pageant and hence it will naturally have a lot of non-white women; there is no bigotry on my part.
This loser claims that in his faqs some cockamaime reason why women of color are not included in his "attractive women" section . He really should save his breath and just call this site : "The White Women I THINK are attractive versus Ethnic women". But if you notice he's more than willing to put women of different ethnicities in the sections for "masculine" and "unattractive" sections.
WHY DON't YOU COME OUT AND SAY YOU THINK WHITE WOMEN ARE MORE ATTRACTIVE THAN OTHER RACES?? Because your too much of wimp to come out and say you're a bigoted idiot. Enjoy living in your sick fantasy world of comparing women who would never look in your direction. Enjoy!!!
Brenda: Going into details about men isn’t what this site is about. The article should do a decent job of emphasizing the importance of skeletal structure in judging men’s masculinity in light of various confounds.
BPS: Some women find the extreme muscularity shown above very appealing, and this is not so unusual, but most women find extremely muscular men unappealing or repulsive.
Sarah: I have told you before not to bother with understanding masculine vs. feminine variation. The Swedish male does not look effeminate. Discussing a “pretty boy” with you would be a waste of time. The term can apply to effeminate but appealing (to those using the term) men or cute men or men who are masculine but have smooth/blemishless skin, nice hair, and a well-groomed plus generally pleasing appearance.
Elizabeth: Since Colleen Marie's picture is taken from a high profile publication, you should allow for make-up and other factors. There is a masculine element in her; see this picture, and note her muscularity, too. She is not too masculine, but view her masculinity in reference to where she has appeared and what it, along with the other choices, tells one about the orientation of the person selecting these women.
Elizabeth: Don't look at it as a personal attack. If some of them barely look like a normal female, let alone one who would be considered attractive by most people, then I believe it needs to be explicitly stated. These women did not select themselves; the fault is with those responsible for their participation, and these are the individuals being critiqued.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/Femdog/move.jpg
Apparently David Bowie moved on from his androgynous phase. His hips say otherwise. Good god.
I always thought Christopher Walken looked like a woman. People say he's 'creepy' ect, I'm like nope, he's f.e.m.i.n.i.z.e.d. yikes!
http://www.thecinemasource.com/moviesdb/images/Christopher_Walken%20-%201%20-%20Hairspray.jpg
hmmm, weird. Regarding the first guy you posted, I always hear ski-slope noses descriped as a non-white feature yet the only people I regularly see them on seem to be whites, negroes have straight noses and asians have straight-convex noses. I'd say the first guy added more definition to his nose rather than made his nose 'whiter' although highly defined features are more likely to be caucasian, on average.
Supermodels are ugly.
Using ape pictures to contrast ancestral features and "derived" (white) features does not earn you any brownie points Erik. Were you too scared to compare non-white features with white ones and then attempt to call white features more desirable? Your assertion that the preference for white features over non-white features is intrinsic is pretty damn offensive and it's another example of you confusing your opinion with actual fact.
Erik doesn't have the balls to come out and say that he thinks derived (white) features are prettier and more "feminine" than ancestral (non-white) features. He will tip toe around the issue and try to assert that non-whites are constantly trying to look more white and that whites never try to look less white.
Your "evidence" that Beyonce has had a nose job is suspect because the pictures are undated and the one on the right is obviously heavily airbrushed.
This candid was taken in November 6 2007
http://www.beyonceworld.net/gallery/candids/2007/AirportManila/images/002.jpg
This was taken in January 2001 which was before her big-haired "Austin Powers in Goldmember phase" that is depicted in the plastic surgery "before photo".
see the difference?
Erik,
I have followed this entire thread. Very interesting.
Even though I, too, prefer thinner women with smaller breasts, your points about the models cited in Sports Illustrated seem undeniable. I confess that I never gave it much thought before.
My impression of why heterosexual men buy the Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition is that it is one of the few times in our society where the "ogling" of women is considered acceptable. If men bring SI home and "check out the women," even their wives won't object.
Best,
Jim
Exhibit A proving plastic surgeons's definition of "deformities" is nonsense:
Michael Jackson's post-surgery face is free of all "deformities" and is the ugliest face on Earth!
Plastic surgeons define "deformity" as "anything we say it is to get people to pay to change it" AND take each feature out of context from its surroundings. Yes, Miranda Kerr has a somewhat broad nose - which is proportional to her somewhat broad face. A narrow nose on a broad face would look badly proportioned and unbalanced.
Michael Jackson's natural face full of "deformities" was merely homely; Michael Jackson's face at his career peak after some plastic surgery was free of "deformities" and much more handsome; Michael Jackson's current face after much more plastic surgery is STILL free of "deformities" and is the ugliest face on Earth, which tells you how much "deformities" have to do with attractiveness!
Oh, and Denzel Washington's always natural face is full of "deformities" and is one of the most handsome faces in the world.
Plastic surgeons' arbitrary definition of "deformities" says Michael Jackson looks better than Denzel Washington!
%-P
Whipped Honey said:
My point: Erik, you have NOT proved that nonwhite people’s cosmetic surgery procedures IN GENERAL create results outside the norm for their racial/ethnic groups.
I agree with you that many of these nonwhite surgical procedures are still within the normal range of features for their groups. Yet there seems to be a pattern of those alterations tending in the direction of what Erik calls "derived" features, and away from certain ethnic features, even if still inside the normal range for that ethnicity. Plastic surgery among whites does not exhibit this same tendency.
Erik said:
The simple fact is that European facial norms are overall the most derived among human populations (Fig. 4), and people generally tend to prefer overall facial features among their co-ethnics that are somewhat more derived compared to average and especially ancestral features.
I can guess what you mean by "derived," but perhaps you could explain its meaning more explicitly? Also, what would be an explanation for why Europeans have more derived facial features?
you're a stupid fat whore erik. i am going to slit your throat and fuck that slit until you burp up cum.
Erik, if white people's lip injections being within European norms proves they aren't trying to "look nonwhite", then nonwhite people's cosmetic procedures being within their racial/ethnic norms proves they aren't trying to "look more derived".
You quote a controlled scientific study to support the conclusion that White people's lip enhancement is not designed to make them look more like nonwhites because the results are still well within European norms, without mentioning the fact that that study says, "This could be due to technical or financial limitations of the procedure. Some patients can only justify the cost of a single ampoule of Restylane. Additionally, without local anesthetic nerve blockade, injection of more than a single ampoule becomes very uncomfortable; thus, in both cases the patients may accept a lesser result." The conductors of the study acknowledge that the patients may very well have been forced to SETTLE for lips within European norms because they could not afford more or handle the anesthesia for more. Note that among rich White celebrities who can afford more, lip injections bigger than European norms are very common.
Quote:
I agree that "Nonwhite people want to look white" is a lie. If nonwhite people want to "look white", how come I've never heard of nonwhite people getting cosmetic procedures to attain artificial freckles, or Black women with a healthy body mass index getting their behinds surgically flattened to look more like the typical White woman's behind (not to be confused with liposuction on overweight behinds), or Blacks getting their lips reduced to the extreme thinness of many Northern Europeans' lips (the clearly mentally ill self-mutilator Michael Jackson is not representative of mentally normal Blacks), or those nonwhites with generally thicker hair than Whites, such as Blacks and Latinos, having hair folicles removed to create the thinner-haired White look? There are plenty of physical features that are typical of or unique to White people that nonwhite people do NOT want.
My point: Erik, you have NOT proved that nonwhite people's cosmetic surgery procedures IN GENERAL create results outside the norm for their racial/ethnic groups. Not only is your nonwhite study sample too small to reach any statistical conclusions (two celebrities plus two anonymous people), but even within that meaninglessly small study sample, you do not even address the issue of whether their cosmetic surgery results were within the norm for their respective racial/ethnic groups. My guess is that, in three cases out of four, the answer is yes; Tyra Banks' and Beyonce Knowles' nose jobs are still within the norms for Black Americans (which is why many people cannot even tell those two have nose jobs), and among the two anonymous people photographed, the Black man's nose job is well within the norm for Black Americans. Only one of your four examples, the Asian woman with the nose job, has results that appear to be POSSIBLY outside the norm for her ethnicity, and I'm not even sure about that since you don't say what her ethnicity is.
As for East Asian women's double eyelid surgery, which does create a result outside their ethnic norm, I do not know the percentage of East Asian women who get this surgery, but I've lived in California which has a HUGE East Asian population and MOST of the East Asian women I saw there did not have double eyelid surgery. So it appears that they do not want to "look more derived".
If the fact that White people's lip injections are usually within European norms (and that may be purely the result of inability to afford more expensive lip injections bigger than European norms, which are very popular with rich White celebrities) proves White people who get lip injections aren't trying to "look nonwhite", then the very possible fact that nonwhite people's cosmetic surgery is usually within their ethnic norms (prove it or disprove it - you didn't bother to gather data on this) proves nonwhite people aren't trying to "look more derived". You can't have it both ways.
:smirk:
Well, well, who other than 8D would be the first to comment and by using an alias (Der Wanderer!)? Damn, 8D, do not impersonate others. I changed "Der Wanderer" to 8D.
these women are so unattractive and ambrosio is the worst, i cannot undrestand how some men are jerkin off on their pictures
so u r a stupid retarded nazi!
Plastic surgeons define "deformity" as "anything we say it is to get people to pay to change it".
None of the women here had a "deformed" nose by any objective standard, with the possible exception of the woman with the narrow middle vault only if she had trouble breathing easily. A real deformity is something that interferes with the nose's ability to perform its natural function, such as a very narrow middle vault or deviated septum that makes breathing difficult, or a hole in the nose such as can be caused by habitual cocaine use.
Great beauties who suffer from these nose "deformities":
Low radix/low dorsum: Vanessa Williams
Narrow middle vault: Michelle Pfeiffer
Inadequate nose tip projection: Sophia Loren
Cephalic malposition of the alar cartilage lateral crura: Uma Thurman
Cephalic malposition of the alar cartilage lateral crura: Vanessa Williams
Cephalic malposition of the alar cartilage lateral crura: Marlene Dietrich
Cephalic malposition of the alar cartilage lateral crura: Grace Kelly
Some of the greatest beauties ever photographed suffer from nose "deformities" because plastic surgeons' definitions of nose "deformities" is ARBITRARY NONSENSE.
:kiss:
Der Wanderer:
"Define “structure” cause I don’t think we speak the same language."
By "structure" I mean (and I may add to this definition when I'm not sleepy) a strong bone structure causing a very clear shape. Alessandra's pretty good structure is very visible in your most recent post's third photograph; click on it for a larger size and you will see that each of her facial features stands out distinctly and separately from the others, without any particular one being overly strong so as to overwhelm her whole face.
Delta Goodrem's brow bone, nose, cheekbones, and jaw bone do not stand out as much as Alessandra Ambrosio's do. Camille from Teen Stars Magazine has brow bone, nose, cheekbones and jaw bone that stand out little or not at all. Camille is going to age very badly because, as the saying goes, all that's left at midlife is bone structure, and Camille has very weak bone structure. Her face is going to become a ball of dough.
"For instance: you’re a Miranda Kerr advocate: But she looks like a Swiss Cheese Ball !"
I never said I am a "Miranda Kerr advocate". All I ever said about Miranda Kerr is that contrary to plastic surgeons' self-serving propaganda, her nose is not deformed and looks fine. I never said a word about any part of her other than her nose.
Erik: What happened to my recent post on this page?
:bug:
I suspect that the attractiveness value is positive to neutral in middle eastern populations, and neutral to negative in non-middle eastern populations.
I've noticed that, like in these photos, a many women get plastic surgeries to alleviate hook-like structural differences on their noses. What's the typical attractive value for that trait, considering how oommon it is among middle eastern populations?
Whipped Phoney :
Good.
Much better "structured"
http://imgboot.com/images/Lammero/740414.jpg http://imgboot.com/images/Lammero/g59991b.jpg
Define "structure" cause I don't think we speak the same language.
For instance: you're a Miranda Kerr advocate:
But she looks like a Swiss Cheese Ball !
Hunnie :
- You look like shit today, I mean ... unstructured
- * SLAP *
- :(
Sidhatzer4ever: There are no “masculine” and “unattractive” sections within this site unless you count the sections on “sexy fashion models” and “top fashion models,” the former being all white and the latter close to almost all white. This article addresses an international beauty pageant and hence it will naturally have a lot of non-white women; there is no bigotry on my part.
This loser claims that in his faqs some cockamaime reason why women of color are not included in his "attractive women" section . He really should save his breath and just call this site : "The White Women I THINK are attractive versus Ethnic women". But if you notice he's more than willing to put women of different ethnicities in the sections for "masculine" and "unattractive" sections.
WHY DON't YOU COME OUT AND SAY YOU THINK WHITE WOMEN ARE MORE ATTRACTIVE THAN OTHER RACES?? Because your too much of wimp to come out and say you're a bigoted idiot. Enjoy living in your sick fantasy world of comparing women who would never look in your direction. Enjoy!!!
Brenda: Going into details about men isn’t what this site is about. The article should do a decent job of emphasizing the importance of skeletal structure in judging men’s masculinity in light of various confounds.
BPS: Some women find the extreme muscularity shown above very appealing, and this is not so unusual, but most women find extremely muscular men unappealing or repulsive.
Sarah: I have told you before not to bother with understanding masculine vs. feminine variation. The Swedish male does not look effeminate. Discussing a “pretty boy” with you would be a waste of time. The term can apply to effeminate but appealing (to those using the term) men or cute men or men who are masculine but have smooth/blemishless skin, nice hair, and a well-groomed plus generally pleasing appearance.
Elizabeth: Since Colleen Marie's picture is taken from a high profile publication, you should allow for make-up and other factors. There is a masculine element in her; see this picture, and note her muscularity, too. She is not too masculine, but view her masculinity in reference to where she has appeared and what it, along with the other choices, tells one about the orientation of the person selecting these women.
Elizabeth: Don't look at it as a personal attack. If some of them barely look like a normal female, let alone one who would be considered attractive by most people, then I believe it needs to be explicitly stated. These women did not select themselves; the fault is with those responsible for their participation, and these are the individuals being critiqued.
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