AnalyzeThis: There is an article that mentions many of the biggest labels in the fashion business, and they were established by homosexual men. The aforementioned article took a lot of the information from a special issue of The Advocate, which is a major publication catering to the GLBT community, and this special issue proudly acknowledged the gay domination of the fashion business. I also cited an NY times article on the gay domination of the fashion business.
Male high-fashion models tend to have faces that are normal to masculine with respect to masculinity-femininity, but their physiques often lean toward those of boys in their late adolescence. So you see the influence of male homosexuals there, too, but the homosexuals obviously cannot get away with using males that look like boys in their early adolescence.
Whereas cheekbone placement, face width, eyebrow position and jawline contour are relevant to beauty, “high cheekbones, facial narrowing, low-set brows and an angular jawline” are not the elements of facial beauty in women as far as most people are concerned, and whereas any of these features by themselves will not make a face look masculine, their combination, as in Alessandra, will.
8D: Goddamn, you need to behave. I checked the IP logs and you were the one impersonating Bron in the comment stating “my penis was cute off @ youg age.” What is this? Bron is a woman. This site is not meant for immature individuals. Begone! Never impersonate others.
Michael: Your example of me tremendously failing at applying my “dogmas on feminization” and discrediting this site is a statement that an article on SI swimsuit models is filled with fallacy. You then exhort me to find better examples without specifying in what manner, and list some fallacies, none of which I have committed. How am I supposed to respond to this?
What do you mean by mediocre glamour models? If you are referring to social status, then this is not what the comparisons are about. If you are referring to looks, then point specific examples and the fashion models they are compared to.
Where have I made the assertion that all glamour models are feminine? It would be an easy matter for me to post pictures of masculine glamour models.
Anya is feminine but not extremely feminine because her breasts are not big enough. An extremely feminine woman cannot have a below average feminine appearance with respect to any important aspect relevant to a feminine appearance. For instance, look at Jaime Hammer; nothwithstanding her curves, even she is not extremely feminine because her face isn’t feminine enough.
Lena: Fashion models are typically bound to have very good skin. They also tend to be young, but here are some issues concerning the rest of your observations. High-fashion models are on average 178 cm tall. Most fashion models in the 170-173 cm range are unlikely to be regular high-fashion models, and are likely lower-tier models. You have indicated that you are Italian. The Italian government banned skinny fashion models and models below 16 in late 2006. Therefore, you may be observing the effect of the ban, which is not seen in New York and other big fashion centers. Regarding facial features, there are some ethnic issues. Many people in Northern Italy are derived from the Germanic tribes that migrated to Italy and have finer facial features, on average, compared to the more indigenous Mediterranean people and descendents of Roman-era non-Germanic slaves in Southern Italy. Italian fashion models are usually of Northern/Germanic descent, and when assessing their facial features, you should be comparing them to feminine Northern women, not the southern masses, and perhaps you will not have such a high opinion of the faces of the high-fashion models.
Ruth: Grace Kelly did have squarish jaws. She wasn’t particularly feminine, but looked good. I don’t see how you can describe Scarlett Johansson as looking extremely feminine. Halle Berry has had nose jobs. I am reluctant to use such women as examples of attractive women. In any case, I do not have a section of this site where attractive non-European women are shown.
Stewart: Plenty of studies cited within this site argue against the notion that the top fashion models owe their status to most people finding them very attractive. Their status has a simple explanation: the gay domination of the fashion business.
You are mistaken that somewhat increased femininity in men is considered desirable from a female perspective. Studies overwhelmingly show that women prefer above average masculinity in men’s physique, but the face studies do not show a clear picture: some indicate a preference for above average masculinity, others for below average masculinity and some have not related male face attractiveness to masculinity-femininity. These discrepancies can be resolved, but this is not the place to be addressing this issue.
If you believe that the masculinity of fashion models is related to women increasingly participating in formerly male-dominated jobs, then you need to look at video game female characters. What is more stereotypically masculine than combat? These female characters kick butt and are often dressed to kill, but they are typically very feminine looking. I am a great fan of women shown with swords, knives, guns and futuristic weapons (example), and these images cannot be beaten in my opinion if the women look very feminine.
My arguments cannot be summed up as “non-feminine is bad.” I have also not argued that masculinized women are less of a woman than feminine women.
8D: Even before I read your comment, I guessed that it would have nothing to do with the article. Stop posting nonsense. Don’t come back to this site if you dislike it. I will address the contents of your linked websites later, in a separate entry. These two sites will not be having as much impact as this site will in the long run since this site nails the problem; it hits the bull’s eye, whereas your cited sites do not have a clue about the source of the problems they are complaining about.
Der Wanderer: Whereas there is some discrepancy in eye projection when one observes the cross-eyed composite, the images have left-right shape symmetry, but not left-right lighting symmetry. Anyway, left-right symmetry is not an issue in Fig. 5 and neither is viewing them cross-eyed.
Larry Robinson: Do it in missionary position or turn off the lights when doing it doggy style. Exercising the buttocks muscles will help add mass and improve looks. The quickest way to add muscle mass to the buttocks is to eccentrically challenge the muscles using specialized equipment. You may need to refer to a personal trainer for the know-how.
If your wife is older, then her backside likely looked better when she was young, and viewing surgical correction as a procedure that will be restoring more youthful looks should be less of a problem since she would be using it to acquire what she had rather than what she never had. Also, if you lean toward surgical correction, hopefully your wife should want it too; imposing it on her is not recommended.
Danielle: Like I said, no comment necessary. But if one had to leave a comment, there is something more than mere thinness involved. Note emperorjvl’s comment, “...if it’s a girl...” The picture also shows non-Europeans for a change.
Sarah: I have only shown Charlize Theron’s face, not physique in the attractive women section. Charlize Theron never had a feminine physique. You also cited a picture of Charlize in her thirties, when she is clearly past her prime.
I haven’t seen Vanessa Hudgens’ nude pictures, but from what I have seen of her, I don’t find her attractive.
Mar: I am not saying that all people share the same idea of attractiveness. Whereas some men like thin, androgynous men and others like curvy women, what about proportion? Is there no significance to the observation that most men prefer feminine women? I have myself pointed out some remarkable examples of cultural differences in what is regarded as appealing, but there are shared ideas of beauty, too. For instance, most people from a given culture judge the attractiveness of people from another culture similar to how most people in the other culture judge their own attractiveness:
Quote:
Bernstein, I. H., Lin, T., & McCellan, P. (1982). Cross-vs. within-racial judgments of attractiveness. Perception & Psychophysics, 32, 495-503.
Cunningham, M. R., Roberts, A. R., Barbee, A. P., Druen, P. B., & Wu, C. (1995). Their ideas of beauty are, on the whole, the same as ours: consistency and variability in cross-cultural perception of female attractiveness. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 68, 261-279.
Jones, D., & Hill, K. (1993). Criteria of facial attractiveness in five populations. Human Nature, 4(3), 271–296.
My point is that what you observe in contemporary beauty pageants is at odds with the aesthetic preferences of most people, and that contestants pleasing to most people would be the best choice.
You are the one who degraded her body , and some clown you are,demonstrating what manner of people are opponents to this site.
You know nothing about my body.
That photo is quite cute, looks like face of my husband.
Mine is smaller, so much of a man I am.
Beside my face, people also praise my intellect.Daily. And educated people. But no, I am not very smart.Certainly not enough to guess, that it was you using my nick name, when posting from another computer, so what will IP address clear to me?
I believe your theory--that homosexual men are drivers behind the female modeling industry, and because of their innate attraction for men tend to prefer women with like masculine features--has only reached halfway to completeness, and is flawed without a full analysis. Also, you do not offer any quantitative evidence or numerical survey that female modeling industrry is driven by and dominated by homosexual men; I will presume that is true (for your benefit).
The other half of a complete theory is its inverse and would be to analyze male models and their similarities to female features. Arguably, the average man does not look like a (top) male model, likewise, the average woman does not look like a (top) female model. Below is Mathias Lauridsen, who apparently is the #1 current male model. Next to the image is Alessandra Ambrosio. Their faces are strikingly similar in shape, angles and feature placement "...With high cheekbones, facial narrowing, low-set brows and an angular jawline..." As a student of plastic surgery, "facial" beauty in general is defined in those aformentioned qualities (you defined, http://www.femininebeauty.info/sexy.fashionmodels.1.htm). It is incorrect to say that these features pertain to male-only attributes and if females have those attributes then they are "...unambiguously masculinized." Vice-versa with female-only attributes (less anatomic features: breasts, pectorals, etc.). These female models who have chosen to compare ahve qualities what society has deemed as beautiful. Likewise, it is the same qualites that deem male models as beautiful. Irregardless of the claim that the modeling industry is driven by homosexual men.
Erik, have you seen the nude Vanessa Hudgens pictures? What do you think about her figure? I've never seen an 18 have such big hips.
Oh and I've also noticed you had a picture up of Charlize Theron on your "attractive womens section" but it turns out Charlize isn't so cute and feminine after all:
I have read through quite a bit of the site and have not yet encountered a perspective that I'd like to put forth. If I've missed it and you've covered it somewhere, I apologise for the redundancy.
I have to agree with the assertion that femininity and thinness are not mutually exclusive. The balance between looking thin and looking womanly is something that fashion constantly blurs the lines on, or crosses over completely
The link between thinness and attractiveness is related to the overall silhouette versus the dynamic look of a body in motion. In some photographs with careful posing, as you've pointed out, the silhouette is a strikingly feminine shape, when viewed as a two-dimensional image. Most of the manly models that I agree are not attractive can at times present a smooth, curvy frontal line, without bulges or softer flesh that detracts from the overall impression. Even though the same bulges and softer flesh are paramount to the perception of femininity, there is a clash with the innate desire for health and fitness in our prospective mate. The problems begin when the body begins to move about, and the angles and flatness from less than optimal angles become more apparent. Woman who retain some feminine characteristics from multiple angles survive this test.
We want a female who is healthy and strong, able to carry the baby to term, and part of the unconcious appraisals we are guided by is the overall body fat of the woman. Part of het reason that a small trim ribcage is so appealing to me, and obviously you, is that it broadcasts "trim and fit", even if there is a contrasting swell to the breast and hip region - which broadcast their own positive breeding message. You don't often see a woman with a small trim ribcage and overly fat thighs.
These drives work to fool us when viewing a two-dimensional photograph into preferring a thinner woman, as long as she has a swoop to the overall outer line. When we actually look at the depth and contours of the entire body, as with the 'ass' shots of some of these transvestite wanna-be's, the veil is lifted and we can see how badly we were deceived.
One of the critical aspects for a thin woman to still appear feminine is the sideways waist to hip ratio. The overall measurement provides no detail for the distribution of those lovely inches as either width or depth. If the side profile of a thin woman has a depth to the butt cheeks that is significantly more than the waist, she will present a feminine silhouette. For any woman, thin or not, when the sdeways profile shows a waist that is as visually wide as the hips/butt cheeks, it looks manly and wrong. It doesn't inspire the unconcious response that the woman is a healthy breeding female. When the butt cheeks curve in at the bottom defining the cheek, that is also a telling marker tha twe unconciously, or conciously look for. If there is no definition to the bottom of the ass cheek, as with most supermodels, the message is all wrong. these are things that are not measured or represented in a ratio, or a BMI.
A good pop culture example of this is the very curvy, yet arguably butch Jessica Biel. I think she's amazing, but there are many men who think she's too angular. From the side, her ass is much deeper than her waist, with a beautiful, firm curve that screams "I CAN MAKE HEALTHY BABIES". There are other aspects of her physique that can appear masculine, again depending on the angle, pose, and overall silhouette, but since most of her shape derives from muscle and not fat, she usually looks great when in motion as well as stopped for 1/400th of a second. For example, from the front her visual waist to hip ratio - in silhouette - is not that high, as most of the swell of her ass is backwards, not sideways. This contributes to a more manly front profile depending on the angle.
This comment is getting long, but I'd like to say more. Perhaps I'll have the time and chance to post again. I hope you find that welcome.
The topic is of interest to me, having been with a very curvy, sexy woman, in great shape, for most of my adult life, and flabbergastedly watching her criticising her body time and again, wishing for the unattainable dichotomy of feminine shape and zero flab. She has a rare combination of lean, muscular femine shape, so I guess it's no surprise that I find Jessica Biel so attractive.
Thanks for putting together a thought provoking site. Some great research and ideas here.
Brian
Der Wanderer, I'm a female. Lillian Russell weighed over 200 pounds at one point in her career and she was about 180 at her peak. She was overweight by medical standards. Theda Bara just looks fat.
It doesn't take a genius to see that these two women were not skinny or even average. All it takes is two eyes. I am sure the general population back in the day would describe these women as chubby or fat but the difference between now and then is that it wasn't a bad thing to be fat. My point was that beauty standards have evolved and they aren't as static as Eric would portray them to be. Maybe you should work on your reading comprehension. Genius.
The girl at left has a face that would fit a girl with a regular build, but she's a skeleton. The girl at right (if it's a girl) looks like one of those starving children from Africa.
>There is no question as to Elle’s having a much more
>masculine physical structure than Monica.
>
>A couple points:
>
>Firstly, I don’t buy this whole homosexuals dominating the fashion
>industry notion. It seems clear to me, speaking as a male, that the
>real culprit is our still highly patriarchal society.
Let me get this straight ...
"Our still highly patriarchal society" decided, all of a sudden, to drop its standards of female beauty without a fight, just for fun.
There is no question as to Elle's having a much more masculine physical structure than Monica.
A couple points:
Firstly, I don't buy this whole homosexuals dominating the fashion industry notion. It seems clear to me, speaking as a male, that the real culprit is our still highly patriarchal society. Many aspects of our society have stepped back from patriarchy, but it is in the business world that patriarchy remains most strongly entrenched. Not surprising, since this is the arena where the priviledged have the most to lose. When comparing two persons and being asked which is likely to be more successful in business, the more masculine person is overwhelmingly chosen. This website clearly does its reserach well, and effectively, since it is now undeniable that fashion models are more masculine than the average woman. I'd appreciate seeing the same rigour applied to my above statement, a detailed physical comparison of sucessful business persons, both male and female. The preferential treatment afforded masculine persons in the business world explains why men, regardless of their sexual orientation, dominate the fashion industry rather than women (which would make, oh, let's see, about a thousand times more sense!) Men aren't allowed to design much creatively satisfying fashion for other men because patriarchal business attitudes are infused with the patriarchal notion that we aren't supposed to make men look fancy, we're supposed to make our (female) property look fancy. Ergo, the men that want to design fashion, and have the advantage over women who want to do the same, are constrained to design women's fashion.
But way beyond the preferences of the designers, at every stage of the business, photography, publishing, marketing, the same goal is clear: make money. And the same question, which of two alternatives will be more successful at making money, will be asked. And the answer, in the business world, will remain the same: the more masculine alternative.
Secondly, reading the above comments, it absolutely amazes me how many men fine Elle attractive. I find her about as attractive as a bean pole. Two factors influence this: one, we are all highly influenced by marketing, and when strongly encouraged to find a particular individual attractive many of us will allow our sense of what is attractive to be altered rather than feel like we are abnormal. Secondly, how to put this delicatly, some men are attracted to masculine features. I'd strongly recommend that any guy finding Elle attractive seriously consider exploring expanding his idea of what is attractive to potentially include other guys.
And no, that's not a "rule of thumb"
It's a Law of Nature.
Interesting entry, like usual.
Those who can't tell the difference between the "Plain Jane" and the "Femme Fertile" within 5 seconds,
shouldn't be reading this site.
But there's a problem with the bottom row figures (Fig. 5)
If you combine them crossing your eyes to form a composite image, like when viewing a stereo pair,
her right eye protrudes, but her left eye is sunken. I think one, or both images, are not perfectly symmetrical.
last post was not mine, Erik, you should know that, some debased lowlife, probably 8D hiding behind my name so insidiously; only she was so obsessed with small penises, sounds like she was messing with horses....
There I go again, and I decided I wont be a part of such degrading conversations.
>>I would like to see on my own eyes some of those small faced, childlike gorgeous fashion models, because so far I haven’t see any fitting that description<<
....That is, unless they are still very young, beyond the age 13 or 14 they all get bad jaw or whatever.
I would like to see on my own eyes some of those small faced, childlike gorgeous fashion models, because so far I haven't see any fitting that description, even on best of their photos; petites, on the other hand are perhaps more likely to have such faces, and slender bones.
And concerning men on street telling them: “you are beautifullll” ; funny, that's what they are telling me also, and I am nobody, not famous, not glittery dressed, no make up, and I believe, they say that to many women with 'model counter type' looks
AnalyzeThis: There is an article that mentions many of the biggest labels in the fashion business, and they were established by homosexual men. The aforementioned article took a lot of the information from a special issue of The Advocate, which is a major publication catering to the GLBT community, and this special issue proudly acknowledged the gay domination of the fashion business. I also cited an NY times article on the gay domination of the fashion business.
Male high-fashion models tend to have faces that are normal to masculine with respect to masculinity-femininity, but their physiques often lean toward those of boys in their late adolescence. So you see the influence of male homosexuals there, too, but the homosexuals obviously cannot get away with using males that look like boys in their early adolescence.
Whereas cheekbone placement, face width, eyebrow position and jawline contour are relevant to beauty, “high cheekbones, facial narrowing, low-set brows and an angular jawline” are not the elements of facial beauty in women as far as most people are concerned, and whereas any of these features by themselves will not make a face look masculine, their combination, as in Alessandra, will.
8D: Goddamn, you need to behave. I checked the IP logs and you were the one impersonating Bron in the comment stating “my penis was cute off @ youg age.” What is this? Bron is a woman. This site is not meant for immature individuals. Begone! Never impersonate others.
Michael: Your example of me tremendously failing at applying my “dogmas on feminization” and discrediting this site is a statement that an article on SI swimsuit models is filled with fallacy. You then exhort me to find better examples without specifying in what manner, and list some fallacies, none of which I have committed. How am I supposed to respond to this?
What do you mean by mediocre glamour models? If you are referring to social status, then this is not what the comparisons are about. If you are referring to looks, then point specific examples and the fashion models they are compared to.
Where have I made the assertion that all glamour models are feminine? It would be an easy matter for me to post pictures of masculine glamour models.
Anya is feminine but not extremely feminine because her breasts are not big enough. An extremely feminine woman cannot have a below average feminine appearance with respect to any important aspect relevant to a feminine appearance. For instance, look at Jaime Hammer; nothwithstanding her curves, even she is not extremely feminine because her face isn’t feminine enough.
Lena: Fashion models are typically bound to have very good skin. They also tend to be young, but here are some issues concerning the rest of your observations. High-fashion models are on average 178 cm tall. Most fashion models in the 170-173 cm range are unlikely to be regular high-fashion models, and are likely lower-tier models. You have indicated that you are Italian. The Italian government banned skinny fashion models and models below 16 in late 2006. Therefore, you may be observing the effect of the ban, which is not seen in New York and other big fashion centers. Regarding facial features, there are some ethnic issues. Many people in Northern Italy are derived from the Germanic tribes that migrated to Italy and have finer facial features, on average, compared to the more indigenous Mediterranean people and descendents of Roman-era non-Germanic slaves in Southern Italy. Italian fashion models are usually of Northern/Germanic descent, and when assessing their facial features, you should be comparing them to feminine Northern women, not the southern masses, and perhaps you will not have such a high opinion of the faces of the high-fashion models.
Ruth: Grace Kelly did have squarish jaws. She wasn’t particularly feminine, but looked good. I don’t see how you can describe Scarlett Johansson as looking extremely feminine. Halle Berry has had nose jobs. I am reluctant to use such women as examples of attractive women. In any case, I do not have a section of this site where attractive non-European women are shown.
Stewart: Plenty of studies cited within this site argue against the notion that the top fashion models owe their status to most people finding them very attractive. Their status has a simple explanation: the gay domination of the fashion business.
You are mistaken that somewhat increased femininity in men is considered desirable from a female perspective. Studies overwhelmingly show that women prefer above average masculinity in men’s physique, but the face studies do not show a clear picture: some indicate a preference for above average masculinity, others for below average masculinity and some have not related male face attractiveness to masculinity-femininity. These discrepancies can be resolved, but this is not the place to be addressing this issue.
If you believe that the masculinity of fashion models is related to women increasingly participating in formerly male-dominated jobs, then you need to look at video game female characters. What is more stereotypically masculine than combat? These female characters kick butt and are often dressed to kill, but they are typically very feminine looking. I am a great fan of women shown with swords, knives, guns and futuristic weapons (example), and these images cannot be beaten in my opinion if the women look very feminine.
My arguments cannot be summed up as “non-feminine is bad.” I have also not argued that masculinized women are less of a woman than feminine women.
8D: Even before I read your comment, I guessed that it would have nothing to do with the article. Stop posting nonsense. Don’t come back to this site if you dislike it. I will address the contents of your linked websites later, in a separate entry. These two sites will not be having as much impact as this site will in the long run since this site nails the problem; it hits the bull’s eye, whereas your cited sites do not have a clue about the source of the problems they are complaining about.
Der Wanderer: Whereas there is some discrepancy in eye projection when one observes the cross-eyed composite, the images have left-right shape symmetry, but not left-right lighting symmetry. Anyway, left-right symmetry is not an issue in Fig. 5 and neither is viewing them cross-eyed.
Larry Robinson: Do it in missionary position or turn off the lights when doing it doggy style. Exercising the buttocks muscles will help add mass and improve looks. The quickest way to add muscle mass to the buttocks is to eccentrically challenge the muscles using specialized equipment. You may need to refer to a personal trainer for the know-how.
If your wife is older, then her backside likely looked better when she was young, and viewing surgical correction as a procedure that will be restoring more youthful looks should be less of a problem since she would be using it to acquire what she had rather than what she never had. Also, if you lean toward surgical correction, hopefully your wife should want it too; imposing it on her is not recommended.
Danielle: Like I said, no comment necessary. But if one had to leave a comment, there is something more than mere thinness involved. Note emperorjvl’s comment, “...if it’s a girl...” The picture also shows non-Europeans for a change.
Sarah: I have only shown Charlize Theron’s face, not physique in the attractive women section. Charlize Theron never had a feminine physique. You also cited a picture of Charlize in her thirties, when she is clearly past her prime.
I haven’t seen Vanessa Hudgens’ nude pictures, but from what I have seen of her, I don’t find her attractive.
Mar: I am not saying that all people share the same idea of attractiveness. Whereas some men like thin, androgynous men and others like curvy women, what about proportion? Is there no significance to the observation that most men prefer feminine women? I have myself pointed out some remarkable examples of cultural differences in what is regarded as appealing, but there are shared ideas of beauty, too. For instance, most people from a given culture judge the attractiveness of people from another culture similar to how most people in the other culture judge their own attractiveness:
Quote:
My point is that what you observe in contemporary beauty pageants is at odds with the aesthetic preferences of most people, and that contestants pleasing to most people would be the best choice.
> She was overweight by medical standards.
Oh, "by medical standards"
How sweet...
What's your beef with Erik, then?
Who put the likes of Alessandra Ambrosius on a pedestal?
Hint: it wasn't the Medical Establishment
> My point was that beauty standards have evolved and they aren’t as static as Eric would portray them to be.
Who "evolved" them?
Darwinian evolution?
Hegelian metaphysics?
The pointing finger of God?
No. Normal people, like Erik.
You're a reactionary opposing change, drop your useless crusade.
I think Charlize has nice face, but her shoulders and ribcage are very broad. How feminine is she really?
8D: ARE YOU DEBIL?
You are the one who degraded her body , and some clown you are,demonstrating what manner of people are opponents to this site.
You know nothing about my body.
That photo is quite cute, looks like face of my husband.
Mine is smaller, so much of a man I am.
Beside my face, people also praise my intellect.Daily. And educated people. But no, I am not very smart.Certainly not enough to guess, that it was you using my nick name, when posting from another computer, so what will IP address clear to me?
Erik-
I believe your theory--that homosexual men are drivers behind the female modeling industry, and because of their innate attraction for men tend to prefer women with like masculine features--has only reached halfway to completeness, and is flawed without a full analysis. Also, you do not offer any quantitative evidence or numerical survey that female modeling industrry is driven by and dominated by homosexual men; I will presume that is true (for your benefit).
The other half of a complete theory is its inverse and would be to analyze male models and their similarities to female features. Arguably, the average man does not look like a (top) male model, likewise, the average woman does not look like a (top) female model. Below is Mathias Lauridsen, who apparently is the #1 current male model. Next to the image is Alessandra Ambrosio. Their faces are strikingly similar in shape, angles and feature placement "...With high cheekbones, facial narrowing, low-set brows and an angular jawline..." As a student of plastic surgery, "facial" beauty in general is defined in those aformentioned qualities (you defined, http://www.femininebeauty.info/sexy.fashionmodels.1.htm). It is incorrect to say that these features pertain to male-only attributes and if females have those attributes then they are "...unambiguously masculinized." Vice-versa with female-only attributes (less anatomic features: breasts, pectorals, etc.). These female models who have chosen to compare ahve qualities what society has deemed as beautiful. Likewise, it is the same qualites that deem male models as beautiful. Irregardless of the claim that the modeling industry is driven by homosexual men.
http://models.com/model_culture/50topmalemodels/images/mattgu1.jpg
Does the girl on the right have a moustache?
Erik, have you seen the nude Vanessa Hudgens pictures? What do you think about her figure? I've never seen an 18 have such big hips.
Oh and I've also noticed you had a picture up of Charlize Theron on your "attractive womens section" but it turns out Charlize isn't so cute and feminine after all:
http://media.egotastic.com/media/pictures/0708/charlize-theron-bikini-1-14.jpg
I have read through quite a bit of the site and have not yet encountered a perspective that I'd like to put forth. If I've missed it and you've covered it somewhere, I apologise for the redundancy.
I have to agree with the assertion that femininity and thinness are not mutually exclusive. The balance between looking thin and looking womanly is something that fashion constantly blurs the lines on, or crosses over completely
The link between thinness and attractiveness is related to the overall silhouette versus the dynamic look of a body in motion. In some photographs with careful posing, as you've pointed out, the silhouette is a strikingly feminine shape, when viewed as a two-dimensional image. Most of the manly models that I agree are not attractive can at times present a smooth, curvy frontal line, without bulges or softer flesh that detracts from the overall impression. Even though the same bulges and softer flesh are paramount to the perception of femininity, there is a clash with the innate desire for health and fitness in our prospective mate. The problems begin when the body begins to move about, and the angles and flatness from less than optimal angles become more apparent. Woman who retain some feminine characteristics from multiple angles survive this test.
We want a female who is healthy and strong, able to carry the baby to term, and part of the unconcious appraisals we are guided by is the overall body fat of the woman. Part of het reason that a small trim ribcage is so appealing to me, and obviously you, is that it broadcasts "trim and fit", even if there is a contrasting swell to the breast and hip region - which broadcast their own positive breeding message. You don't often see a woman with a small trim ribcage and overly fat thighs.
These drives work to fool us when viewing a two-dimensional photograph into preferring a thinner woman, as long as she has a swoop to the overall outer line. When we actually look at the depth and contours of the entire body, as with the 'ass' shots of some of these transvestite wanna-be's, the veil is lifted and we can see how badly we were deceived.
One of the critical aspects for a thin woman to still appear feminine is the sideways waist to hip ratio. The overall measurement provides no detail for the distribution of those lovely inches as either width or depth. If the side profile of a thin woman has a depth to the butt cheeks that is significantly more than the waist, she will present a feminine silhouette. For any woman, thin or not, when the sdeways profile shows a waist that is as visually wide as the hips/butt cheeks, it looks manly and wrong. It doesn't inspire the unconcious response that the woman is a healthy breeding female. When the butt cheeks curve in at the bottom defining the cheek, that is also a telling marker tha twe unconciously, or conciously look for. If there is no definition to the bottom of the ass cheek, as with most supermodels, the message is all wrong. these are things that are not measured or represented in a ratio, or a BMI.
A good pop culture example of this is the very curvy, yet arguably butch Jessica Biel. I think she's amazing, but there are many men who think she's too angular. From the side, her ass is much deeper than her waist, with a beautiful, firm curve that screams "I CAN MAKE HEALTHY BABIES". There are other aspects of her physique that can appear masculine, again depending on the angle, pose, and overall silhouette, but since most of her shape derives from muscle and not fat, she usually looks great when in motion as well as stopped for 1/400th of a second. For example, from the front her visual waist to hip ratio - in silhouette - is not that high, as most of the swell of her ass is backwards, not sideways. This contributes to a more manly front profile depending on the angle.
This comment is getting long, but I'd like to say more. Perhaps I'll have the time and chance to post again. I hope you find that welcome.
The topic is of interest to me, having been with a very curvy, sexy woman, in great shape, for most of my adult life, and flabbergastedly watching her criticising her body time and again, wishing for the unattainable dichotomy of feminine shape and zero flab. She has a rare combination of lean, muscular femine shape, so I guess it's no surprise that I find Jessica Biel so attractive.
Thanks for putting together a thought provoking site. Some great research and ideas here.
Brian
Der Wanderer, I'm a female. Lillian Russell weighed over 200 pounds at one point in her career and she was about 180 at her peak. She was overweight by medical standards. Theda Bara just looks fat.
It doesn't take a genius to see that these two women were not skinny or even average. All it takes is two eyes. I am sure the general population back in the day would describe these women as chubby or fat but the difference between now and then is that it wasn't a bad thing to be fat. My point was that beauty standards have evolved and they aren't as static as Eric would portray them to be. Maybe you should work on your reading comprehension. Genius.
What was the point of this post? We know that fashion models are skinny. You have pointed this out a million times.
The girl at left has a face that would fit a girl with a regular build, but she's a skeleton. The girl at right (if it's a girl) looks like one of those starving children from Africa.
that wasn't me, moron. tell erica to check IP addresses. you're not smart, are you?
anyway, here's a picture for you to ponder.
http://www.style.com/slideshows/fashionshows/S2008RTW/PSCHOULER/BACKSTAGE/00040m.jpg
PS: you're male. get over it. no women would degrade their own bodies like you do
>There is no question as to Elle’s having a much more
>masculine physical structure than Monica.
>
>A couple points:
>
>Firstly, I don’t buy this whole homosexuals dominating the fashion
>industry notion. It seems clear to me, speaking as a male, that the
>real culprit is our still highly patriarchal society.
Let me get this straight ...
"Our still highly patriarchal society" decided, all of a sudden, to drop its standards of female beauty without a fight, just for fun.
What a genius, this whilom "guy"
> Many of sex symbols of the past were chubby or even fat.
And how do you know that they were "fat" ?
You are judging them against today's standards.
What a genius, this Danielle guy.
There is no question as to Elle's having a much more masculine physical structure than Monica.
A couple points:
Firstly, I don't buy this whole homosexuals dominating the fashion industry notion. It seems clear to me, speaking as a male, that the real culprit is our still highly patriarchal society. Many aspects of our society have stepped back from patriarchy, but it is in the business world that patriarchy remains most strongly entrenched. Not surprising, since this is the arena where the priviledged have the most to lose. When comparing two persons and being asked which is likely to be more successful in business, the more masculine person is overwhelmingly chosen. This website clearly does its reserach well, and effectively, since it is now undeniable that fashion models are more masculine than the average woman. I'd appreciate seeing the same rigour applied to my above statement, a detailed physical comparison of sucessful business persons, both male and female. The preferential treatment afforded masculine persons in the business world explains why men, regardless of their sexual orientation, dominate the fashion industry rather than women (which would make, oh, let's see, about a thousand times more sense!) Men aren't allowed to design much creatively satisfying fashion for other men because patriarchal business attitudes are infused with the patriarchal notion that we aren't supposed to make men look fancy, we're supposed to make our (female) property look fancy. Ergo, the men that want to design fashion, and have the advantage over women who want to do the same, are constrained to design women's fashion.
But way beyond the preferences of the designers, at every stage of the business, photography, publishing, marketing, the same goal is clear: make money. And the same question, which of two alternatives will be more successful at making money, will be asked. And the answer, in the business world, will remain the same: the more masculine alternative.
Secondly, reading the above comments, it absolutely amazes me how many men fine Elle attractive. I find her about as attractive as a bean pole. Two factors influence this: one, we are all highly influenced by marketing, and when strongly encouraged to find a particular individual attractive many of us will allow our sense of what is attractive to be altered rather than feel like we are abnormal. Secondly, how to put this delicatly, some men are attracted to masculine features. I'd strongly recommend that any guy finding Elle attractive seriously consider exploring expanding his idea of what is attractive to potentially include other guys.
Those links are better for morons like you who can't read.
Lousy punctuation + Lousy capitalization = Complete moron
And no, that's not a "rule of thumb"
It's a Law of Nature.
Interesting entry, like usual.
Those who can't tell the difference between the "Plain Jane" and the "Femme Fertile" within 5 seconds,
shouldn't be reading this site.
But there's a problem with the bottom row figures (Fig. 5)
If you combine them crossing your eyes to form a composite image, like when viewing a stereo pair,
her right eye protrudes, but her left eye is sunken. I think one, or both images, are not perfectly symmetrical.
Here's a tutorial for viewing stereo pairs:
http://mypage.iu.edu/~robrown/Crosseye.html
Greets.
last post was not mine, Erik, you should know that, some debased lowlife, probably 8D hiding behind my name so insidiously; only she was so obsessed with small penises, sounds like she was messing with horses....
There I go again, and I decided I wont be a part of such degrading conversations.
my penis was cute off @ youg age
>>I would like to see on my own eyes some of those small faced, childlike gorgeous fashion models, because so far I haven’t see any fitting that description<<
....That is, unless they are still very young, beyond the age 13 or 14 they all get bad jaw or whatever.
I would like to see on my own eyes some of those small faced, childlike gorgeous fashion models, because so far I haven't see any fitting that description, even on best of their photos; petites, on the other hand are perhaps more likely to have such faces, and slender bones.
And concerning men on street telling them: “you are beautifullll” ; funny, that's what they are telling me also, and I am nobody, not famous, not glittery dressed, no make up, and I believe, they say that to many women with 'model counter type' looks
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