Is Sonia blake supposed to be an example of extreme femininity? abov average femininity or just normal feminine looking? do you agree her face looks ugly?and on this point id like to ask erik if someone has a feminine/above average feminine body/excessive femininity and even a feminine looking face but they still "look" ugly by ugly i mean that they are desirable from a feminine looking perspective i.e they look feminine but this feminine look doesnt "turn" a hetrosexual man on more than say a slightly masucline looking woman who may be more masculine looking than the feminine woman but who may "look" more desirable in the sexual sense then what is your opinion on this? can this be the case? can an excessively feminine looking woman look ugly? i.e be not as sexualy appealing than a less feminine looking woman or is it a case that the more extreme the femininity the more desirable the look i mean where do you draw the line???
Though you argue femininity is a correlate of beauty which do you think is more powerfull overalll by powerfull I mean which do you think would be preffered/choosen/most desired beauty or femininity? because although feminity is a correlate of beauty it does not follow that looking feminine equals looking beautifull.
erik seems to me that when you look at the way white men behave towards there white women and treat them that they are bored of there plain old looking women.....
Erik what do yuo think of dani minouge sister of kylie minouge and in comparison to kylie who is more feminine? and also you mentioned esther canadas. Is she overall masucline or feminine?
My teenage sister is a beautiful girl with soft, feminine facial features and a very low WHR, and a BMI of 20. She was always taking different kinds of diet pills, complaining about being fat and having wide hips and her boobs are too small (her only complaint that could possibly be justified as unattractive). She won't stop talking about how gorgeous the Victorias Secret models are (They're more flat chested than she is). Every time she pointed one out to me, I was unimpressed, she just thought I was trying to be macho. I haven't seen her in a few months, and it's apperently getting worse. She was just diagnosed with an eating disorder and put on an Prozac. Ugh. This sucks. There is an elephant in the room and it stinks to high heaven.I generally agree with your standard of beauty. It's important for girls to realize that you can't diet your way to attractiveness.
*correction* I meant that Daria was NOT styled in a way that led me to believe the designer wanted her to be very "sexy". By sexy, I mean raunchy and slightly vulgar. It seems to me that the designer was going for a fresher look.
That's not haute couture, but that doesn't mean that its not high fashion. Its obviously either a ready-to-wear or a resort collection. Haute couture is not the only type of clothes that fit into the high fashion criteria. You're obviously confused about what haute couture is. I think you should try to find out more about the fashion industry if you want to intensely critique it.
Haute couture is the dying art of making extremely well crafted clothes. Only a few fashion houses still do couture shows because its ridiculously expensive to procure the material and the talent needed to make these clothes and couture is so expensive that only a few pieces are really sold, though they are often rented out by fashion magazines. Ready-to-wear or pret-a-porter is what we most often see on the runways. Dior couture
That's what Daria was doing. She is a high fashion model and she was modeling a high fashion item of clothing. I don't know what you mean by "sexy modeling". Are you thinking of your own nude "models"? Daria was styled in a way that led me to believe that the designer intended for her to be scintillatingly sexy. The nude makeup, slighly tousled hair and the bathing suit she's wearing suggests to me that the designer was going for a simple, summeresque, carefree vibe.
She's too thin in that video and her narrow hips probably make you want to vomit, but I don't think she looks bad. She's naturally thin and with some more weight she would look very attractive to me. The video actually makes her look better than the pictures you posted of her. You assume too much when you think that this is "the homosexuals" definition of sexy. You're arrogant for a man who apparantly knows very little about the industry that he's bashing.
y cant u just let designers have their 'masculine' women? you dont see them running towards your porn section and calling ur feminine (read: trashy) women ugly. and more normal people look @ porn than @ fashion, so maybe itz the porn stars that make people anorexic. they're already making people fix their vaginas or think that their peenises r 2 small.
All the women from the different nationalities in the photos are beautiful,all in different ways,thats why they're all in beauty pageants.There are differences in looks in all different nationalities,thats what makes diversity-but they're all beautiful.
Imagine if all flowers looked the same for example.
Perhaps instead of spending so much energy writing on what YOU perceive as feminine,masculine,attractive etc,you could spend time looking at why your perceptions are the way they are and why the "aethetics" of women concern you so much.
Also can you please post a photo of yourself-that would be only fair.
Thankyou
David: Jessica Simpson is obviously masculine. I do not find her attractive though some people do.
Sarah: Nikki Schieler’s physique does not come close to the mannequins’. Note Nikki’s much broader rib cage and larger feet. She posed topless for Playboy and you can clearly see breast implants in her topless pictures.
Jim: The mannequins represent a physique more feminine than Anna Song’s notwithstanding their smaller breasts because they possess a smaller rib cage and a less robust musculoskeletal system, i.e., the mannequins stand out because of their overall features whereas Anna Song stands out because of her breasts alone.
8D: Pictures like yours make it difficult to judge femininity because of the posing and hair hiding a lot of the face. You can still infer the masculine face of the woman; just note the forehead projection/sunken eyes. Her waist-hip proportions seem feminine, but due to factors other than sex hormones, a masculinized woman can have one or two features that look feminine. If you look at more pictures of this woman, Adina Fohlin, you will see just how masculine she is overall.
Name: The physiques would get correspondingly masculinized with facial masculinization. The software that I used only generates faces. I will have to come up with an illustration of physique variation later.
Twisty: I don’t believe I have ever argued that the female high-fashion model look simply requires masculinization. There are obviously other requirements, too.
You are confused about cheekbone variation as a function of sex hormones. You can see in the illustration series above that with increasing feminization, the cheekbones expand both sideways and downward. If you see a combination of a) cheekbones expanded sideways but also higher or b) cheekbones contracted sideways but also expanded downward or lowered, then no simple conclusion regarding masculinity-femininity can be made until the cheekbones are evaluated in reference to the rest of the face.
For instance, the redhead glamour model has “type b)” cheekbones, and given her overall facial features, there is no way you can call her masculine or say that her cheekbones are masculine. Whereas the fashion model below her has more horizontally expanded cheekbones, more robust facial skeleton (you have noted it) and a reduced lower face height, she also has a squarer chin, deeper-set eyes and broader nasal bones. Overall, the redhead’s face looks more feminine.
Take a look at the zygomatic arch (bony arch joining cheekbones to the bony part next to the ear) of a masculine man and that of a feminine woman (left). Note that the zygomatic arch of men is more robustly built. In a number of cases, the flared part of high-fashion models is a powerfully built zygomatic arch, and you need to distinguish this from a sideways expansion of the cheekbones.
I have several pages focusing on the facial features of high-fashion models contrasted with glamour models. Face page 1 features many high-fashion models with regressed and higher cheekbones, and their features closely approximate those of adolescent boys on average. Face page 2 shows many high-fashion models with regressed and higher cheekbones plus finer facial features. Face page 3 features high-fashion models with high cheekbones that may or may not be prominent sideways, but these women tend to have a robust facial structure. The cheekbones page focuses on high-fashion models with flared zygomatic arches and high cheekbones. The general appearance of the fashion models’ cheekbones on these pages is not feminine.
The glamour models on face page 3 are supposed to be masculine/robust. You took one example from this page (the woman with close-set eyes), who happens to be contrasted with a much more masculine-looking fashion model, and used this example to make a case for more feminine eye spacing in fashion models. The latter is not true, on average.
You have used the expression “teen boy who has not yet finished puberty.” I have been talking about homosexual designers going after the adolescent-boy look. Adolescent boys have already gone through puberty. Some of them have squinty eyes (similar to Esther Canadas’) or a contoured face outline like the jawline/cheek lines of Iekeliene Stange. Some adolescent boys may also have a “hard/severe look” as in the woman whose picture you posted (who also happens to have regressed and high cheekbones, which you have glossed over).
You need to be looking at the overall picture. The central tendency is clearly to approach the looks of adolescent boys notwithstanding some models who don’t approach this tendency. I have never argued that homosexual men are some sort of mild pedophiles. My argument has simply been that homosexuals and bisexuals are much more likely to be attracted to children than heterosexuals (1, 2).
I haven’t just focused on a single axis, namely the axis addressing masculine-feminine variation. Just contrast the fashion models on face page 2 with those on face page 3 (links above). Those on face page 2 have finer facial features but are still more masculine than average. I have also addressed the issue of facial robusticity extensively in the contest of international beauty pageants (see the beauty pageant link, left navigation column).
Not from Twisty’s: I am not portraying homosexuality as borderline pedophilia. There is plenty of evidence that homosexuals are much more likely to be sexually interested in children than heterosexuals (1, 2).
If your face is similar to the woman shown by you, then you likely look good. You can email me your pictures.
Compared to the average, if your face is more masculine but you have less body hair, then this does not mean that you have a mixture of masculine and feminine features. The extent of body hair is roughly a single feature and is affected by a variety of factors apart from androgen levels. For instance, many men, undoubtedly much more masculine than the typical or even masculinized women, have little body hair. On the other hand, if overall facial features are masculinized then it is a safe bet that the developmental hormonal profile has been masculine since one is looking at multiple features on the masculine side of average.
Apart from the absolute levels of androgens, you also need to assess the levels of estrogens. You may have somewhat below average testosterone levels, which could be accounting for below average musculature, but if your estrogen levels are lower and to a greater extent, then your sex hormones profile (androgen levels in relation to estrogen levels) will be on the masculine side of average.
You are correct that people tend to use the anorexic label somewhat loosely, but psychiatrists use it in a narrow sense. For instance, Nicole Richie would be more of a bulimic type than an anorexic type. I agree that Keira Knightley appears to be a naturally slender type.
It is true that some fashion models are naturally thin, but there are others that are forced to diet to secure their jobs. In Western societies, obesity is despised more than thinness in women. Therefore, next time you encounter heavier women telling slender models to eat a sandwich, rest assured that you would be viewed more favorably by most Westerners than obese women.
The objective truth that I have been talking about is that the majority finds feminine beauty more desirable. This is not similar to saying that some scientific theory will be falsified if the majority of uninformed people didn’t believe it. A scientific theory is a proven explanation of some phenomena, and its truth lies in the proof, not in people’s mere opinion. Similarly, if studies repeatedly show that people generally prefer feminine beauty, then the latter can be stated as the gist of multiple studies, which cannot be dismissed by people on the street saying that they don’t believe it.
d: I am not merely making assumptions about the preferences of most heterosexual men, but backing it up with plenty of data (a better resource coming soon). Your doubts about the factors responsible for the typical looks of high-fashion models are extensively addressed here.
Do not confound actual body shape with how posing can alter it. Natalia Vodianova isn’t even close to feminine. Of course, high-fashion models need to fit certain looks requirements, but what factors are responsible for these requirements (see answer at second link from top above)? High-fashion models do not look like each other’s clones; there is variation among them, but the central tendency among them is clear notwithstanding some outliers.
You are mistaken about both Victoria’s Secret and Playboy representing the interests of heterosexual men though Playboy centerfolds are closer. Whereas a number of girls and women are inspired by actresses, actresses are chosen for a variety of factors apart from looks, whereas models are chosen for their looks. Actresses themselves are influenced by the looks of high-fashion models since these models occupy the top rung among models. Therefore, some influence of actresses is an indirect influence of high-fashion models.
Hugh Ristik: I had planned on coming up with a site addressing feminism, give it an innocuous name such as womensstudies.org and definitely not portray it as a site critical of feminist theories at the very outset. However, I am too busy and couldn’t see myself contributing to such a site anytime soon unless I found some co-authors well-versed in biology and psychology.
Anyway, your site is a good one. I would advise you to add a wiki to organize the data better. This feminine beauty site from the very beginning has not been a blog-only site, but now that it has a sizeable number of blog entries, I will be adding a wiki soon to present new visitors with an easy and systematic way to digest its contents.
The kind of studies that you are looking for are huge in number, most requiring some background in the biological/psychological sciences to understand them. I will mention a few:
Quote:
Psychological masculinity-femininity (hereditary component, cross-cultural validation) and occupational preferences -
Quote:
John C. Loehlin, Erik G. Jönsson, J. Petter Gustavsson, Michael C. Stallings, Nathan A Gillespie, Margaret J. Wright, and Nicholas G. Martin. Psychological Masculinity-Femininity via the Gender Diagnosticity Approach: Heritability and Consistency Across Ages and Populations. Journal of Personality, Volume 73 Issue 5 Page 1295 - October 2005
Richard A. Lippa. Subdomains of gender-related occupational interests: Do they form a cohesive bipolar M-F dimension? Journal of Personality, Volume 73 Issue 3 Page 693 - June 2005
The gender diagnosticity approach in the two papers above is explained for a more lay readership in Richard Lippa’s book Gender, Nature and Nurture.
Cognitive ability-
Quote:
Paul Irwing, Richard Lynn. Sex differences in means and variability on the progressive matrices in university students: A meta-analysis. The British Journal of Psychology, Volume 96 Part 4 Page 505- Nov. 2005.
Helmuth Nyborg. Sex-related differences in general intelligence g, brain size, and social status. Personality and Individual Differences, Volume 39 Issue 3 Page 497- August 2005.
Even feminists have been forced to acknowledge the greater variability and small male advantage in math problem solving ability:
Quote:
Janet Shibley Hyde. The Gender Similarities Hypothesis. American Psychologist, Volume 60 Issue 6 Page 581- Sep. 2005.
The effect of prenatal testosterone exposure on behavioral femininity of adult women -
Quote:
J. Richard Udry. Biological Limits of Gender Construction. American Sociological Review, Volume 65 Issue 3 Page 443- June 2000.
Biological influences on toy preferences -
Quote:
Gerianne M. Alexander. An evolutionary perspective of sex-typed toy preferences: pink, blue, and the brain. Archives of Sexual Behavior, Volume 32 Issue 1 Page 7- Feb 2003.
Suppression of female sexuality -
Quote:
Roy F. Baumeister, Jean M. Twenge. Cultural suppression of female sexuality. Review of General Psychology Volume 6 Issue 2 Page 166- June 2002.
Hugh Ristik: The best choice for this person would be a woman that is normal to feminine. As a side note, homosexual men often have this strange mix and they will generally not be mating with women.
Hugh Ristik: This is an example of not being able to have one’s cake and eat it, too. Feminists will obviously blame the art on heteroptariarchy, but they also want to blame heteropatriarchy for skinny fashion models. These accusations cannot be simultaneously true, especially given that the prevalence of women with anorexic behaviors is so low that it would be remarkable if heterosexual men would continue to promote skinny and masculine models, at striking odds with their preferences, in order to starve women and keep them in a subordinate position.
Danielle: Daria is all dressed up for a social gathering, isn’t she? If something like this is observed in the midst of a haute couture show, it can hardly be described as high-fashion modeling. I cut the video off because the focus is on Daria, not the rest. The woman shown after her happens to be a pale Caroline Trentini, not some bronzed woman (though a tanned one is seen from behind). I agree that Caroline doesn’t look manly, but she is an outlier.
What do you mean Daria isn’t “va va va voom” in the video? She is to the homosexuals, damn sexy to be precise.
Victoria’s Secret has used the likes of Jessica Stam, Karolina Kurkova, Gisele Bundchen, Elise Crombez and a whole bunch of other notably masculinized women. The company has far from typically relied on the likes of Caroline Trentini.
Danielle: Your question is already answered within this site. What is up with you posting pictures where the face shape is obscured by hair or if not then showing a small picture? The reader can easily answer your question by contrasting the glamour model with your pictures, especially these clearer pictures of Kate Moss and Natalia Vodianova.
She was doing high fashion. Where did you get the impression that she was doing "sexy modeling"? I like how the video cuts off when we see more bodacious, bronzed girls on a different runway. Designers will often cast girls according to what mood and image they want to project with their collection. That's why some of the more unusual looking girls (big-nosed, baby-faced, bird-faced, ect...) won't get cast in lingerie shows no matter how popular they are. Girls who look like Caroline Trentini, who was in the video at the end, and Doutzen Kroes are typically picked over girls like Erin O'Connor and Iekeliene Stange for Victoria's Secret and its the other way around for haute couture. This has nothing to do with homosexuality and everything to do with the image they want to project. Caroline Trentini Doutzen Kroes Erin O'Connor Iekeliene Stange
Daria is hardly va va va voom in that video but she wasn't meant to be. Designers aren't as clueless as all that you know. The styling and outfit that Daria is in makes me think that they were going for something other than sexy. Designers know how to do "sexy", or at least I think they do, and that's not it.
Sheena: Yes, a more masculine woman isn’t less of a woman. But the looks of fashion models matter. Read the answer to the question about why there is a need to promote feminine beauty.
If you wish to learn about what most people prefer, you would want to start here (I will be coming up with a better resource soon).
Danielle: When you are comparing lists, you need to consider the extent of agreement. 8 of the 10 women chosen by Anna Wintour were also among the top 10 in model.com’s list. Wintour’s choice, Agyness Deyn, was ranked close to #10 in model.com’s list around the time of the Vogue edition’s publication. This is an example of excellent agreement. The only oddity is Chanel Iman, and on the part of Anna Wintour, which is probably political correctness at work; people may otherwise complain about the absence of colored women.
The amount of work is not the only consideration, but the quality of work matters, too, in determining model rankings. Malgosia Bela is older and heavier, but with a more masculine face than Daria’s, she could get away with the extra weight. From what I have seen of Julia Stegner, she doesn’t appear to be as heavy as Daria in the picture posted by her fan. If Doutzen appears to be an exception, then you need to consider the general pattern; one exception here and there does not undermine the general pattern.
A good agent is obviously important for a high-fashion model’s success, but this agent will be more successful at marketing his models if they look more like adolescent boys.
There are indeed plenty of people apart from homosexual men in the fashion industry, but the most important people are the designers because the whole industry revolves around their work, and the top ranks of the designers are dominated by homosexual men. Therefore, the aesthetic preferences of these homosexuals are the chief determinant of the central tendency of the looks of high-fashion models.
erik
Is Sonia blake supposed to be an example of extreme femininity? abov average femininity or just normal feminine looking? do you agree her face looks ugly?and on this point id like to ask erik if someone has a feminine/above average feminine body/excessive femininity and even a feminine looking face but they still "look" ugly by ugly i mean that they are desirable from a feminine looking perspective i.e they look feminine but this feminine look doesnt "turn" a hetrosexual man on more than say a slightly masucline looking woman who may be more masculine looking than the feminine woman but who may "look" more desirable in the sexual sense then what is your opinion on this? can this be the case? can an excessively feminine looking woman look ugly? i.e be not as sexualy appealing than a less feminine looking woman or is it a case that the more extreme the femininity the more desirable the look i mean where do you draw the line???
Also erik what is your views on persian women and them being the so called most beautifull women in the world idea.
Though you argue femininity is a correlate of beauty which do you think is more powerfull overalll by powerfull I mean which do you think would be preffered/choosen/most desired beauty or femininity? because although feminity is a correlate of beauty it does not follow that looking feminine equals looking beautifull.
erik seems to me that when you look at the way white men behave towards there white women and treat them that they are bored of there plain old looking women.....
so basically erik, large breasts no matter how large alone do not make one more feminine
Erik what do yuo think of dani minouge sister of kylie minouge and in comparison to kylie who is more feminine? and also you mentioned esther canadas. Is she overall masucline or feminine?
My teenage sister is a beautiful girl with soft, feminine facial features and a very low WHR, and a BMI of 20. She was always taking different kinds of diet pills, complaining about being fat and having wide hips and her boobs are too small (her only complaint that could possibly be justified as unattractive). She won't stop talking about how gorgeous the Victorias Secret models are (They're more flat chested than she is). Every time she pointed one out to me, I was unimpressed, she just thought I was trying to be macho. I haven't seen her in a few months, and it's apperently getting worse. She was just diagnosed with an eating disorder and put on an Prozac. Ugh. This sucks. There is an elephant in the room and it stinks to high heaven.I generally agree with your standard of beauty. It's important for girls to realize that you can't diet your way to attractiveness.
*correction* I meant that Daria was NOT styled in a way that led me to believe the designer wanted her to be very "sexy". By sexy, I mean raunchy and slightly vulgar. It seems to me that the designer was going for a fresher look.
That's not haute couture, but that doesn't mean that its not high fashion. Its obviously either a ready-to-wear or a resort collection. Haute couture is not the only type of clothes that fit into the high fashion criteria. You're obviously confused about what haute couture is. I think you should try to find out more about the fashion industry if you want to intensely critique it.
Haute couture is the dying art of making extremely well crafted clothes. Only a few fashion houses still do couture shows because its ridiculously expensive to procure the material and the talent needed to make these clothes and couture is so expensive that only a few pieces are really sold, though they are often rented out by fashion magazines. Ready-to-wear or pret-a-porter is what we most often see on the runways.
Dior couture
That's what Daria was doing. She is a high fashion model and she was modeling a high fashion item of clothing. I don't know what you mean by "sexy modeling". Are you thinking of your own nude "models"? Daria was styled in a way that led me to believe that the designer intended for her to be scintillatingly sexy. The nude makeup, slighly tousled hair and the bathing suit she's wearing suggests to me that the designer was going for a simple, summeresque, carefree vibe.
She's too thin in that video and her narrow hips probably make you want to vomit, but I don't think she looks bad. She's naturally thin and with some more weight she would look very attractive to me. The video actually makes her look better than the pictures you posted of her. You assume too much when you think that this is "the homosexuals" definition of sexy. You're arrogant for a man who apparantly knows very little about the industry that he's bashing.
y cant u just let designers have their 'masculine' women? you dont see them running towards your porn section and calling ur feminine (read: trashy) women ugly. and more normal people look @ porn than @ fashion, so maybe itz the porn stars that make people anorexic. they're already making people fix their vaginas or think that their peenises r 2 small.
and daria > that gross trucker old lady u posted
yeesh, you dont expect anything out of women except for super genetic perfection, eh?
oh, bb bb, i no that iz hard 2 realize that wimmin rn't all meant 4 u 2 jerk off too :(
Most atracttive girls are 1 and 8.
All the women from the different nationalities in the photos are beautiful,all in different ways,thats why they're all in beauty pageants.There are differences in looks in all different nationalities,thats what makes diversity-but they're all beautiful.
Imagine if all flowers looked the same for example.
Perhaps instead of spending so much energy writing on what YOU perceive as feminine,masculine,attractive etc,you could spend time looking at why your perceptions are the way they are and why the "aethetics" of women concern you so much.
Also can you please post a photo of yourself-that would be only fair.
Thankyou
David: Jessica Simpson is obviously masculine. I do not find her attractive though some people do.
Sarah: Nikki Schieler’s physique does not come close to the mannequins’. Note Nikki’s much broader rib cage and larger feet. She posed topless for Playboy and you can clearly see breast implants in her topless pictures.
Jim: The mannequins represent a physique more feminine than Anna Song’s notwithstanding their smaller breasts because they possess a smaller rib cage and a less robust musculoskeletal system, i.e., the mannequins stand out because of their overall features whereas Anna Song stands out because of her breasts alone.
8D: Pictures like yours make it difficult to judge femininity because of the posing and hair hiding a lot of the face. You can still infer the masculine face of the woman; just note the forehead projection/sunken eyes. Her waist-hip proportions seem feminine, but due to factors other than sex hormones, a masculinized woman can have one or two features that look feminine. If you look at more pictures of this woman, Adina Fohlin, you will see just how masculine she is overall.
Name: The physiques would get correspondingly masculinized with facial masculinization. The software that I used only generates faces. I will have to come up with an illustration of physique variation later.
Twisty: I don’t believe I have ever argued that the female high-fashion model look simply requires masculinization. There are obviously other requirements, too.
You are confused about cheekbone variation as a function of sex hormones. You can see in the illustration series above that with increasing feminization, the cheekbones expand both sideways and downward. If you see a combination of a) cheekbones expanded sideways but also higher or b) cheekbones contracted sideways but also expanded downward or lowered, then no simple conclusion regarding masculinity-femininity can be made until the cheekbones are evaluated in reference to the rest of the face.
For instance, the redhead glamour model has “type b)” cheekbones, and given her overall facial features, there is no way you can call her masculine or say that her cheekbones are masculine. Whereas the fashion model below her has more horizontally expanded cheekbones, more robust facial skeleton (you have noted it) and a reduced lower face height, she also has a squarer chin, deeper-set eyes and broader nasal bones. Overall, the redhead’s face looks more feminine.
Take a look at the zygomatic arch (bony arch joining cheekbones to the bony part next to the ear) of a masculine man and that of a feminine woman (left). Note that the zygomatic arch of men is more robustly built. In a number of cases, the flared part of high-fashion models is a powerfully built zygomatic arch, and you need to distinguish this from a sideways expansion of the cheekbones.
I have several pages focusing on the facial features of high-fashion models contrasted with glamour models. Face page 1 features many high-fashion models with regressed and higher cheekbones, and their features closely approximate those of adolescent boys on average. Face page 2 shows many high-fashion models with regressed and higher cheekbones plus finer facial features. Face page 3 features high-fashion models with high cheekbones that may or may not be prominent sideways, but these women tend to have a robust facial structure. The cheekbones page focuses on high-fashion models with flared zygomatic arches and high cheekbones. The general appearance of the fashion models’ cheekbones on these pages is not feminine.
The glamour models on face page 3 are supposed to be masculine/robust. You took one example from this page (the woman with close-set eyes), who happens to be contrasted with a much more masculine-looking fashion model, and used this example to make a case for more feminine eye spacing in fashion models. The latter is not true, on average.
You have used the expression “teen boy who has not yet finished puberty.” I have been talking about homosexual designers going after the adolescent-boy look. Adolescent boys have already gone through puberty. Some of them have squinty eyes (similar to Esther Canadas’) or a contoured face outline like the jawline/cheek lines of Iekeliene Stange. Some adolescent boys may also have a “hard/severe look” as in the woman whose picture you posted (who also happens to have regressed and high cheekbones, which you have glossed over).
You need to be looking at the overall picture. The central tendency is clearly to approach the looks of adolescent boys notwithstanding some models who don’t approach this tendency. I have never argued that homosexual men are some sort of mild pedophiles. My argument has simply been that homosexuals and bisexuals are much more likely to be attracted to children than heterosexuals (1, 2).
I haven’t just focused on a single axis, namely the axis addressing masculine-feminine variation. Just contrast the fashion models on face page 2 with those on face page 3 (links above). Those on face page 2 have finer facial features but are still more masculine than average. I have also addressed the issue of facial robusticity extensively in the contest of international beauty pageants (see the beauty pageant link, left navigation column).
Not from Twisty’s: I am not portraying homosexuality as borderline pedophilia. There is plenty of evidence that homosexuals are much more likely to be sexually interested in children than heterosexuals (1, 2).
If your face is similar to the woman shown by you, then you likely look good. You can email me your pictures.
Compared to the average, if your face is more masculine but you have less body hair, then this does not mean that you have a mixture of masculine and feminine features. The extent of body hair is roughly a single feature and is affected by a variety of factors apart from androgen levels. For instance, many men, undoubtedly much more masculine than the typical or even masculinized women, have little body hair. On the other hand, if overall facial features are masculinized then it is a safe bet that the developmental hormonal profile has been masculine since one is looking at multiple features on the masculine side of average.
Apart from the absolute levels of androgens, you also need to assess the levels of estrogens. You may have somewhat below average testosterone levels, which could be accounting for below average musculature, but if your estrogen levels are lower and to a greater extent, then your sex hormones profile (androgen levels in relation to estrogen levels) will be on the masculine side of average.
You are correct that people tend to use the anorexic label somewhat loosely, but psychiatrists use it in a narrow sense. For instance, Nicole Richie would be more of a bulimic type than an anorexic type. I agree that Keira Knightley appears to be a naturally slender type.
It is true that some fashion models are naturally thin, but there are others that are forced to diet to secure their jobs. In Western societies, obesity is despised more than thinness in women. Therefore, next time you encounter heavier women telling slender models to eat a sandwich, rest assured that you would be viewed more favorably by most Westerners than obese women.
The objective truth that I have been talking about is that the majority finds feminine beauty more desirable. This is not similar to saying that some scientific theory will be falsified if the majority of uninformed people didn’t believe it. A scientific theory is a proven explanation of some phenomena, and its truth lies in the proof, not in people’s mere opinion. Similarly, if studies repeatedly show that people generally prefer feminine beauty, then the latter can be stated as the gist of multiple studies, which cannot be dismissed by people on the street saying that they don’t believe it.
d: I am not merely making assumptions about the preferences of most heterosexual men, but backing it up with plenty of data (a better resource coming soon). Your doubts about the factors responsible for the typical looks of high-fashion models are extensively addressed here.
Do not confound actual body shape with how posing can alter it. Natalia Vodianova isn’t even close to feminine. Of course, high-fashion models need to fit certain looks requirements, but what factors are responsible for these requirements (see answer at second link from top above)? High-fashion models do not look like each other’s clones; there is variation among them, but the central tendency among them is clear notwithstanding some outliers.
You are mistaken about both Victoria’s Secret and Playboy representing the interests of heterosexual men though Playboy centerfolds are closer. Whereas a number of girls and women are inspired by actresses, actresses are chosen for a variety of factors apart from looks, whereas models are chosen for their looks. Actresses themselves are influenced by the looks of high-fashion models since these models occupy the top rung among models. Therefore, some influence of actresses is an indirect influence of high-fashion models.
Hugh Ristik: I had planned on coming up with a site addressing feminism, give it an innocuous name such as womensstudies.org and definitely not portray it as a site critical of feminist theories at the very outset. However, I am too busy and couldn’t see myself contributing to such a site anytime soon unless I found some co-authors well-versed in biology and psychology.
Anyway, your site is a good one. I would advise you to add a wiki to organize the data better. This feminine beauty site from the very beginning has not been a blog-only site, but now that it has a sizeable number of blog entries, I will be adding a wiki soon to present new visitors with an easy and systematic way to digest its contents.
The kind of studies that you are looking for are huge in number, most requiring some background in the biological/psychological sciences to understand them. I will mention a few:
Quote:
This should help you get started. Follow the citations in these sources for more.
Hugh Ristik: The best choice for this person would be a woman that is normal to feminine. As a side note, homosexual men often have this strange mix and they will generally not be mating with women.
Hugh Ristik: This is an example of not being able to have one’s cake and eat it, too. Feminists will obviously blame the art on heteroptariarchy, but they also want to blame heteropatriarchy for skinny fashion models. These accusations cannot be simultaneously true, especially given that the prevalence of women with anorexic behaviors is so low that it would be remarkable if heterosexual men would continue to promote skinny and masculine models, at striking odds with their preferences, in order to starve women and keep them in a subordinate position.
Danielle: Daria is all dressed up for a social gathering, isn’t she? If something like this is observed in the midst of a haute couture show, it can hardly be described as high-fashion modeling. I cut the video off because the focus is on Daria, not the rest. The woman shown after her happens to be a pale Caroline Trentini, not some bronzed woman (though a tanned one is seen from behind). I agree that Caroline doesn’t look manly, but she is an outlier.
What do you mean Daria isn’t “va va va voom” in the video? She is to the homosexuals, damn sexy to be precise.
Victoria’s Secret has used the likes of Jessica Stam, Karolina Kurkova, Gisele Bundchen, Elise Crombez and a whole bunch of other notably masculinized women. The company has far from typically relied on the likes of Caroline Trentini.
Danielle: Your question is already answered within this site. What is up with you posting pictures where the face shape is obscured by hair or if not then showing a small picture? The reader can easily answer your question by contrasting the glamour model with your pictures, especially these clearer pictures of Kate Moss and Natalia Vodianova.
She was doing high fashion. Where did you get the impression that she was doing "sexy modeling"? I like how the video cuts off when we see more bodacious, bronzed girls on a different runway. Designers will often cast girls according to what mood and image they want to project with their collection. That's why some of the more unusual looking girls (big-nosed, baby-faced, bird-faced, ect...) won't get cast in lingerie shows no matter how popular they are. Girls who look like Caroline Trentini, who was in the video at the end, and Doutzen Kroes are typically picked over girls like Erin O'Connor and Iekeliene Stange for Victoria's Secret and its the other way around for haute couture. This has nothing to do with homosexuality and everything to do with the image they want to project.
Caroline Trentini
Doutzen Kroes
Erin O'Connor
Iekeliene Stange
Daria is hardly va va va voom in that video but she wasn't meant to be. Designers aren't as clueless as all that you know. The styling and outfit that Daria is in makes me think that they were going for something other than sexy. Designers know how to do "sexy", or at least I think they do, and that's not it.
Sheena: Yes, a more masculine woman isn’t less of a woman. But the looks of fashion models matter. Read the answer to the question about why there is a need to promote feminine beauty.
If you wish to learn about what most people prefer, you would want to start here (I will be coming up with a better resource soon).
Danielle: When you are comparing lists, you need to consider the extent of agreement. 8 of the 10 women chosen by Anna Wintour were also among the top 10 in model.com’s list. Wintour’s choice, Agyness Deyn, was ranked close to #10 in model.com’s list around the time of the Vogue edition’s publication. This is an example of excellent agreement. The only oddity is Chanel Iman, and on the part of Anna Wintour, which is probably political correctness at work; people may otherwise complain about the absence of colored women.
The amount of work is not the only consideration, but the quality of work matters, too, in determining model rankings. Malgosia Bela is older and heavier, but with a more masculine face than Daria’s, she could get away with the extra weight. From what I have seen of Julia Stegner, she doesn’t appear to be as heavy as Daria in the picture posted by her fan. If Doutzen appears to be an exception, then you need to consider the general pattern; one exception here and there does not undermine the general pattern.
A good agent is obviously important for a high-fashion model’s success, but this agent will be more successful at marketing his models if they look more like adolescent boys.
There are indeed plenty of people apart from homosexual men in the fashion industry, but the most important people are the designers because the whole industry revolves around their work, and the top ranks of the designers are dominated by homosexual men. Therefore, the aesthetic preferences of these homosexuals are the chief determinant of the central tendency of the looks of high-fashion models.
Anyway, I just posted Daria's video.
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