You believe that Daria fell in high fashion rankings because she gained weight? Her star was growing steadily before she lost weight, she was everywhere (a big contract with Prada) before the pounds started coming off. I believe she took a temporary hiatus from modeling shortly after her thinnest season ended. She might have done it to recover from an eating disorder or maybe she was exhausted from work which may have contributed to her weight loss. A hiatus is just as valid a reason for not being at the top spot at models.com.
By the way, models.com is not, imo, a reliable list of top models to base your theories on. They often rank according to hype not necessarily to the amount of contracts, shows and cash that the models rack up. Take for example, Malgosia Bela, who is inexplicably #3 on the top model list. The amount of work she gets is not comparable to a lot of the other models below her like Doutzen Kroes, Caroline Trentini and Jessica Stam. The amount of work that these girls get in a month, makes all the work that she got after she reappeared on the fashion scene look pitiful. She was a popular model in the 90s and was hyped when she reemerged from a LONG hiatus. That's why she is on top. So please, if you know nothing about the fashion industry or what models are doing then don't try to rank them or explain why they aren't as popular.
PS. I can see some of that woman's nasty vulva. If you can see the lips that means that the genitals need to be blurred.
Snafu: All professional fashion photos are not heavily airbrushed. Many fashion photographs comprise of pictures of models on the runway, taken by professional photographers. Do you believe they are airbrushing them all? Still photography aimed toward marketing campaigns/ads are most likely to be photoshopped, but many fashion shoots clearly reveal near-flat-chested women (and this is how they are in their candids, too). So what exactly about their breasts/cleavage has been photoshopped?
Agreed that still fashion photography usually involves laborious work, and that women’s breast size can change with age and weight, and that breast implants are usually easy to spot, but these points have nothing to do with your comment.
Let us go over the pictures suggesting that Heidi Klum has had breast implants at some point.
Quote:
The comparison here shows a difference in age not approaching 15 years. The body weights are not very different; the full picture of the younger Heidi Klum (left) is shown above. The bra she is wearing on the right is small and no model/designer would be foolish enough to squeeze breasts so hard by using an ill-fitting bra such that the breasts end up looking squished and odd, especially if a woman has a decent bosom, and breasts naturally as big as shown on the right qualify as decent. The alternative is the use of padded bras, but there is only so much padding you can add to the small top she is wearing. Her breasts look so odd in the right picture that there are two reasonable possibilities: implants or digital editing, but why would an artist do such a lame job at image editing? The picture on the left is a runway picture and the one on the right seems to a backstage picture or equivalent, i.e., neither picture has probably been airbrushed. The picture on the right is not recent. The page cited was posted on Nov. 5, 2004, and Heidi Klum had given birth to her first child on May of this year. In recent years her breasts have looked more natural than on the right picture, and it is safe to assume that the right picture predates her getting pregnant with her first child.
Another picture of note is this, which features a slender and masculine Heidi, in two poses, with large breasts (that do not look natural). The odds of this combination are low. If we were to assume that the breasts in this picture are natural, then the woman would have the genetics of preferentially depositing a great deal of her fat reserves in her breasts, and if such a woman were to gain weight, her breasts would become much more massive, but you don’t see these massive breasts in her heavier pictures. If we again assume photoshopping, then why didn’t the digital artist render the breasts more naturally?
In short, the assertion that Heidi Klum got breast implants at some point is well supported.
I also linked to evidence that Gisele Bundchen has had a nose job. The angles are not the same, but the pictures in conjunction with numerous others that I have shown plus candids that you could find on the internet show that her nose is more refined compared to her earlier self. If the candids and her professional photos, taken close to each other, consistently showed a nose shape difference, it could be assumed that her professional pictures typically show a digitally reduced nose, but this is not true. The first comparison at the link shows freckles in both pictures, though less on the right. I probably have larger versions of some of these pictures, and her picture on the lower right is likely a backstage picture.
You have failed to realize the context of posting Dana Benn’s pictures. The context is that Heidi Klum modeled for Victoria’s Secret in her early thirties, even shortly after giving birth. Therefore, one comparison involves a woman (Dana) with a mother’s looks, and Dana is better suited for lingerie modeling than mommy Heidi/older Heidi by virtue of being more feminine and curvaceous.
You ignored Maria A., who has the right physique for lingerie modeling. Using someone like Maria would be most appropriate, but masculinized women are often seen as lingerie models, and this reflects the influence of the homosexuals who dominate the fashion business, not what most people find appealing.
I didn’t comment on the breasts of Heidi Klum where she is shown bare breasted. I commented on her face. The fake-looking breasts do not suggest that the picture is a fake because there is evidence that Heidi has had breast implants, and competent artists would make the breasts look natural or substitute natural breasts. Do you have evidence that her face has been photoshopped to make it look more masculine? Note also that I usually censor the nipples because the educational message being imparted should not be sidelined by prurient desires, but didn’t bother doing this for this picture. Why? Obviously because the vast majority of people would not find the picture sexually appealing. This was the point of the picture, and it wouldn’t change even if the breasts looked natural.
Your example of post-birth sagginess to supermodel transformation is not relevant because I have not been using Heidi’s recent pictures or pictures from a very elaborate set up where a digital artist would be expected to come up with natural-looking breasts.
Read the intro and FAQ to understand the point of this website. What this site has shown is that masculinized women are popular with the dominant influences in the fashion world, not the general public. There are plenty of heterosexual men who like independent, strong women, but you only need to look at video game female characters to realize how heterosexual men would prefer them to look like.
I believe that there are various degrees of hermaphroditism, just as there are varying degrees of masculinzation in women. In my experience hermaphrodites can be very sexual, but some (those in the middle of the continuum) would not identify themselves belonging exclusively to either gender. Thoughts?
R George: Many pictures of Zuleyka shown above feature her posing. Whereas the comparisons do not involve very similar poses, given the multi-angle pictures shown, it is easy to figure out that Zuleyka’s physique is much more masculine than Natalia’s.
How can you be near certain that Natalia’s pictures have been digitally altered? Natalia’s pictures have been taken from low-profile sources that are not expected to have the means or the willingness to bother with fashion-world-style airbrushing. Zuleyka, on the other hand, has a fashion modeling background, and some of her pictures shown above are more likely to have been airbrushed.
If you believe that scientific research has shown Zuleyka’s face to possess more attractive features than Natalia’s, then you need to spend some time going through this site. Beauty lies in how it all fits together. Natalia has mature features that are more feminine than Zuleyka’s, not weak/underdeveloped features.
When it comes to comparing femininity, the pictures of these women beat their reported WHRs anyday since thin women/women with more protruding backsides can have a low WHR (in the neighborhood of 0.7) without approaching an hourglass shape in front view.
A beauty pageant can easily accommodate contestants of mixed ethnic backgrounds by either assigning these individuals to the best-fit regular group (by physical appearance) or a mixed group category.
The more angular features of whites are not due to greater masculinization but due to other factors, and I don’t see how you can describe this as masculine since there are plenty of very feminine-looking white women around (there are numerous examples within this site). Some non-Europeans may find the average European lip thickness to be below their liking, but femininity and attractiveness are judged by overall appearance, and you will observe in South American nations that people generally find whiter looks more appealing (just look at their models and TV personalities).
I don’t believe that almost ever celebrity has had a nose job. Look at the white models shown within the attractive women section of this site. Most of them are basically no-name non-celebrities. Do you think that most of them have had nose jobs? You can observe the worldwide phenomenon that non-Europeans seeking nose jobs are more likely to want their noses to approach European norms than to make their noses look more ethnic but the reverse is not true. Given equal opportunity, white populations with finer noses are less likely to seek nose jobs than many other populations. Therefore, the admired white look you speak of has a basis in reality, not in imagination. Tanning among whites is less than a century-old phenomenon, and is related to a tan signifying the availability of more leisure time and thereby higher socioeconomic status rather than a preference for darker skin.
You have addressed the section that addresses aesthetics in international beauty pageants. How are the examples of African-American women skewed because of their part-white ancestry? African-Americans generally average a minority white contribution. This section includes plenty of pictures of sub-Saharan African women, too. Some of the featured women with predominant sub-Saharan African ancestry are nude/glamour models. Some of the comparisons on the first page address the possibility of using pictures to make the argument that an objective comparison of beauty across ethnic groups may or may not be possible, and these pictures are not part of the argument or being used to compare the attractiveness of different ethnic groups, and hence it does not matter if some of some of the African women are shown in their natural habitat whereas the European women are nude/glamour models.
Danielle: There is no point in debating if you are going to dismiss the evidence I cite as garbage without examining it let alone refuting it. I mentioned papers such as the Jenny et al. (1994) and the Groth & Birnbaum (1978) studies used by the APA and how they don’t support the APA’s claims as justified at the cited webpages, which primarily reference data from peer-reviewed psychology and psychiatry journals.
I can cite plenty of data about the influence of the gay lobby in the APA, but it would be a waste of my time since you won’t bother going over it.
...: Do you believe that homosexual men are men with the brains/preferences of women? Hint: compare the prevalence of gastrointestinal infections -- related to sexual practices that translate to the consumption of fecal material -- in homosexual men to that in heterosexual women.
Males approaching the average looks of masculinized female high-fashion models look like adolescent males/effeminate young adult men, which is not inconsistent with your statement that “most gay men are more fond of the more feminine-looking ones.” Of course, many homosexual men are interested in masculine adult men.
Oliver: Fig. 19 is a small picture, not sufficient for evaluating the facial attractiveness of Ms. Sarahyba, but it is clear that her physique isn’t feminine regardless of the comparison. Her facial features are much clearer in Fig. 18. An attractive person should look good from all angles. If the face shape of Ms. Sarahyba looks good in some pictures but not good in others, then her face shape cannot be designated as good looking, especially if these pictures happen to have been taken professionally, which is the case in her two pictures shown here.
Danielle: At her thin self shown above, Daria was a top-ranked high-fashion model (#1, ranked by models.com, when this article was posted). Her pictures are only a few months older than the date of the entry. Therefore, the pictures illustrate well what the homosexual designers like compared to what the general public prefers. Dariafan posted a picture of Daria when she had gained weight. Guess what happened to her high-fashion model status ranking with the weight gain?
The mild censorship of Cindy should be self-explanatory. The images are for educational purposes, not titillation. There was no need to censor the woman’s groin because you cannot observe the genitals to any significant degree.
Elizabeth: I agree that Grace Kelly had a slight masculine look to her face, especially pertaining to her jaw. Since feminine women are fewer in number than normal and masculinized women combined, the majority of women will be more masculine than the feminine looks I am promoting. It is obvious that perfection does not exist among humans, but this is not to say that one shouldn’t be aiming for high standards among beauty pageant contestants and models.
Michael: High-fashion models in New York are of comparable thinness to their counterparts in Paris and Milan. There was a time when Paris led the way with its ultra thin Haute couture models, but the homosexuals had more of an influence there than in the U.S.
Most adults prefer the youthful looks of young adults, not physiques leaning toward the appearance of adolescent males (especially not in women). Most people, including the great majority of female buyers of clothing, prefer body fat levels notably higher than what you see among high-fashion models on average (read more of this site and you will encounter plenty of evidence). The typical thinness of high-fashion models has nothing to do with potential buyers being allured by the possibility of vicariously recapturing the appearance of extreme youth.
Ali: There are plenty of differences between the two women related to femininity, especially involving skeletal shape that would not be altered by exercise.
btw what I'm trying to point out is that the 'model look' seems to be somewhat more primitive/mature than population averages (though nowhere near the extent of Maria Shriver) yet no more, in fact rather LESS 'masculinized' or 'feminized' than the average population. Kinda like the body put a lot of energy into bone growth but not much into developing secondary sex characteristics.
you are trying to explain the differeces in terms of a single axis of masculine/feminine, which is incorrect.
I think actress Paz Vega looks like clearly like a man and don't understand how peopel think she is so hot. In this pic and so did all my firends, mom and other users on the internet thought she was a tranny. A very masculinized women imo
I have looked through your website and found it quite interesting and entertaining. You obviously are a highly intelligent individual. I do believe there is increasing masculinity in fashion modelling which does need some curtailing. However your argument ,while very interesting and having some valid points ,is flawed in a number of respects. I will make my assertions in relation to the above article.
Firstly, the pictures of the other woman given for comparison are most definitely altered using a photo editing program, the model is purposely posed and undressed to emphasise curves and the photos are taken from angles which magnify the hip to waist ratio and bust size. In contrast, many of the pictures portrayed of Miss Universe are normal candid shots, screen shots from the pageant and from the night after the win. Therefore these pictures are not comparable.
Both women are beautiful without a doubt. However, facially I prefer Zuleyka and she has more traits of what researchers have found to be beautiful and feminine. i.e. shorter face, bigger eyes, high cheekbones, fuller lips, better symmetry, and an original look. In profile the glamour model is unmemorable. Her features merge into one another and are quite weak. Please note weak features should not be described as feminine. I believe you must distinguish between underdeveloped features and femininity.
I do agree that Miss Universe needs to put on a few pounds as she is too thin as compared with the glamour model above. However the hip to waist ratio of Miss Unverse are still at similar proportion i.e. approx 0.7 even at a lower weight.
One last point, Latin is not a race, but in fact refers to a group of people who can be Asian, black, white or any combination of the aforementioned races. According to your pageant theory, women of different ethnicities cannot even be compared and should be streamed in pageants separately. Therefore, where do the millions of mixed race individuals fit in! Your theory does not accommodate for this. The examples of African- American women ,given on another page, are all skewed due to the fact that all these women are mixed with Caucasian. In fact most people from the Americas are all of mixed heritage. Therefore, as seems to be the case in many of the examples on your site you seemed to have picked the female with more white ancestry as more attractive.
While I will say that many Caucasian traits are accepted in popular culture as beautiful I will remind you that many classic white features are indeed not feminine. Straight and angular features are very white and very masculine. Additionally, white women have a tendency to have very thin lips which companies like Revlon have made a fortune off of. Not to mention the plastic surgeon swho alter these women with collagen for thicker lips and Rhinoplasties to take classic Roman bumps out of noses (e.g. Ashlee Simpson). Not to mention the millions of women sun worshipping and spending excessively on fake tans to look darker. Almost every celebrity (white, black and green lol) has had a nose job. Even some of the most attractive white celebrities such Britney Spears, Tom Cruise and Marilyn Monroe have done so. This leads me to believe the " white" look that is so revered is not white and is actually artificial.
It is quite funny to me also that your pictures of African and Asian women look like “National Geographic” pictures, whereas the photos of the typical white woman appear to be pornographic beauty shots of models (18 -25) in the prime of their lives covered in special stage make up with perfect lighting.
In actuality, true beauty is a mixture of all racial traits and therefore people that that have these traits, like Catherine Zeta Jones who looks mestiza mix and Angelina Jolie who is known for her thick lips etc... appeal to almost all races
Thank you for your interesting site that has kept me entertained this evening!
R.George
The points that i find most interesting in this discussion can be summed up as follows:
I would think that if you surveyed fashion designers, you would probably find that a large number are gay men, and that a large number of people working in the industry are gay men, thereby giving gay men more control over the selection of models. And you would probably find that they prefer masculine looking female models. This seems reasonable. But maybe it is not the only reason why models are masculine, though it might be a large part of it.
Add to that the fact that in North America and Europe, thin is equated with wealth - even if the wealthy are still prone to obesity (in other words - thin is in even if the rich are not, on average, thin). And the fact that Europeans are less prone to obesity and also seem have a propensity for thinner models, whereas obesity is more rampant in North America where models do not tend to be as thin (in my estimation). So i wonder if to be seen as thin in a thinner Europe therefore requires that a model be even thinner by comparison. Is this why North American models seem less thin than their European counterparts, since they do not have to be as thin to look thin next to the average super-sized American?
The most important point for me is that models do not represent the 'average' person. Forget waist to hip ratios or BMI calculations, the fact is that models represent a small fraction of emaciated individuals. Paris Hilton aside, most rich women do not look like the models on whom the clothing is being displayed. So how could any woman visualize how the clothing would look on herself? Even some of the glamour women that you depict are thin when compared to the North American average. So maybe part of the allure to women looking at these models is the pretense that she can recapture, through the purchase of these fashions, the look of extreme youth; even if she never - ever - looked that thin in her own youth.
Dreams can be a powerful and persuasive tool, even if they are unrealistic.
Jjust a few observations that i thought you might chew on for a while.
I basically like your site and your train of thought; all the more unfortunate it is that sometimes you have gone to the other extreme trying to justify your cause. Let's see for example the pictures of Daniella Sarahyba on this page. Yeah, she's not much from the perspective of figure as seen on Fig 19, but she has a markedly pretty and womanly face on that picture. You obviously saw that and carefully selected a much more unfavourable picture of her (Fig 18) to criticize her as masculine in the facial features. That picture simply doesn't do her justice. Of course she may again look different on a third picture, I have no idea. But that's sure once you're trying to back up your position on a semi-scientific basis, you should strive some more to look less biased.
Erik what i meant was that the majority of women have some degree of masculinity in their body or their face. For example Grace Kelly beautiful woman, but dont you agree that her jawline was somewhat masculine? The majority of women in the world have at least one flaw in their physical appearance, and i don't think the "perfect" woman or man for that matter exists.
Why don't you just post pictures of unfortunate looking children as your examples of feminine beauty? They would be just as convincing as your "glamour models."
He looks just like Claire. He is probably just as "feminine" as well.
I also wonder why you keep blurring out the areolas of your skanky "models." Is this some bizarre demonstration of modesty. I would greatly prefer if you blurred most of the greying, redneck vulvas on display. No one wants to see their ravaged goods. I sure others would echo this sentiment.
It is very convenient that you chose a picture of Daria when she was at her very thinnest to compare to that nasty girl. I admit that Daria would be unattractive to most men and women in those shots but you have once again made yourself into the homophobic court jester by choosing to compare her to Cindy.
Cindy is not a skeletor but she still looks like a minging street junkie/whore. She has a jaundiced skin tone, stringy, greasy hair, yellowing teeth and a bizarre hitleresque bikini wax. She reminds me of a strung out runaway who desperately needs a good scrubbing. I will say it again, you have awful taste. A healthier Daria would be chosen by most people over this girl in an instant.
Daria usually looks clean, fresh, cool and elegant. She looks like a girl that women can be friends with and who men would want to marry. Cindy looks like she spends her days in and out of jail or shelters for selling herself at $15 a pop at a truckstop. She has to finance her crack addiction you see.
You are really pathetic Eric. People who don't agree with your homophobic rubbish have been bullied by the gay lobby? Oh please! You are grasping at straws here. Your bullshit sources don't need to be refuted at length because it would be a waste of time to wade through all that garbage. I am sure that you can find "scientists" who believe that AIDS can be cured with cough syrup and who believe that the loch ness monster is real. Being a "scientist" doesn't mean that your "studies" or beliefs are worth debating.
You are willing to believe your bullshit sources over the studies and statements of the APA because it supports your own crackpot theories. OOOOOOOHHHHHH TEH GAY MAFIA IS EVERYWHERE! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!
If straight women prefer above average femininity in women, why would gay men prefer masculinity in women? Even with actual trannies, I know most gay men are more fond of the more feminine-looking ones. Sounds like someone here is very prejudice and bigoted!
As nature is very diverse, human beauty manifests itself in many different ways.
You believe that Daria fell in high fashion rankings because she gained weight? Her star was growing steadily before she lost weight, she was everywhere (a big contract with Prada) before the pounds started coming off. I believe she took a temporary hiatus from modeling shortly after her thinnest season ended. She might have done it to recover from an eating disorder or maybe she was exhausted from work which may have contributed to her weight loss. A hiatus is just as valid a reason for not being at the top spot at models.com.
By the way, models.com is not, imo, a reliable list of top models to base your theories on. They often rank according to hype not necessarily to the amount of contracts, shows and cash that the models rack up. Take for example, Malgosia Bela, who is inexplicably #3 on the top model list. The amount of work she gets is not comparable to a lot of the other models below her like Doutzen Kroes, Caroline Trentini and Jessica Stam. The amount of work that these girls get in a month, makes all the work that she got after she reappeared on the fashion scene look pitiful. She was a popular model in the 90s and was hyped when she reemerged from a LONG hiatus. That's why she is on top. So please, if you know nothing about the fashion industry or what models are doing then don't try to rank them or explain why they aren't as popular.
PS. I can see some of that woman's nasty vulva. If you can see the lips that means that the genitals need to be blurred.
Snafu: All professional fashion photos are not heavily airbrushed. Many fashion photographs comprise of pictures of models on the runway, taken by professional photographers. Do you believe they are airbrushing them all? Still photography aimed toward marketing campaigns/ads are most likely to be photoshopped, but many fashion shoots clearly reveal near-flat-chested women (and this is how they are in their candids, too). So what exactly about their breasts/cleavage has been photoshopped?
Agreed that still fashion photography usually involves laborious work, and that women’s breast size can change with age and weight, and that breast implants are usually easy to spot, but these points have nothing to do with your comment.
Let us go over the pictures suggesting that Heidi Klum has had breast implants at some point.
Quote:
I also linked to evidence that Gisele Bundchen has had a nose job. The angles are not the same, but the pictures in conjunction with numerous others that I have shown plus candids that you could find on the internet show that her nose is more refined compared to her earlier self. If the candids and her professional photos, taken close to each other, consistently showed a nose shape difference, it could be assumed that her professional pictures typically show a digitally reduced nose, but this is not true. The first comparison at the link shows freckles in both pictures, though less on the right. I probably have larger versions of some of these pictures, and her picture on the lower right is likely a backstage picture.
You have failed to realize the context of posting Dana Benn’s pictures. The context is that Heidi Klum modeled for Victoria’s Secret in her early thirties, even shortly after giving birth. Therefore, one comparison involves a woman (Dana) with a mother’s looks, and Dana is better suited for lingerie modeling than mommy Heidi/older Heidi by virtue of being more feminine and curvaceous.
You ignored Maria A., who has the right physique for lingerie modeling. Using someone like Maria would be most appropriate, but masculinized women are often seen as lingerie models, and this reflects the influence of the homosexuals who dominate the fashion business, not what most people find appealing.
I didn’t comment on the breasts of Heidi Klum where she is shown bare breasted. I commented on her face. The fake-looking breasts do not suggest that the picture is a fake because there is evidence that Heidi has had breast implants, and competent artists would make the breasts look natural or substitute natural breasts. Do you have evidence that her face has been photoshopped to make it look more masculine? Note also that I usually censor the nipples because the educational message being imparted should not be sidelined by prurient desires, but didn’t bother doing this for this picture. Why? Obviously because the vast majority of people would not find the picture sexually appealing. This was the point of the picture, and it wouldn’t change even if the breasts looked natural.
Your example of post-birth sagginess to supermodel transformation is not relevant because I have not been using Heidi’s recent pictures or pictures from a very elaborate set up where a digital artist would be expected to come up with natural-looking breasts.
Read the intro and FAQ to understand the point of this website. What this site has shown is that masculinized women are popular with the dominant influences in the fashion world, not the general public. There are plenty of heterosexual men who like independent, strong women, but you only need to look at video game female characters to realize how heterosexual men would prefer them to look like.
wtf celebs get nose jobs bb.
your attractive women seletion dun get nose jobs cause they fail at looking good.
Only two sexes or only two genders?
I believe that there are various degrees of hermaphroditism, just as there are varying degrees of masculinzation in women. In my experience hermaphrodites can be very sexual, but some (those in the middle of the continuum) would not identify themselves belonging exclusively to either gender. Thoughts?
R George: Many pictures of Zuleyka shown above feature her posing. Whereas the comparisons do not involve very similar poses, given the multi-angle pictures shown, it is easy to figure out that Zuleyka’s physique is much more masculine than Natalia’s.
How can you be near certain that Natalia’s pictures have been digitally altered? Natalia’s pictures have been taken from low-profile sources that are not expected to have the means or the willingness to bother with fashion-world-style airbrushing. Zuleyka, on the other hand, has a fashion modeling background, and some of her pictures shown above are more likely to have been airbrushed.
If you believe that scientific research has shown Zuleyka’s face to possess more attractive features than Natalia’s, then you need to spend some time going through this site. Beauty lies in how it all fits together. Natalia has mature features that are more feminine than Zuleyka’s, not weak/underdeveloped features.
When it comes to comparing femininity, the pictures of these women beat their reported WHRs anyday since thin women/women with more protruding backsides can have a low WHR (in the neighborhood of 0.7) without approaching an hourglass shape in front view.
A beauty pageant can easily accommodate contestants of mixed ethnic backgrounds by either assigning these individuals to the best-fit regular group (by physical appearance) or a mixed group category.
The more angular features of whites are not due to greater masculinization but due to other factors, and I don’t see how you can describe this as masculine since there are plenty of very feminine-looking white women around (there are numerous examples within this site). Some non-Europeans may find the average European lip thickness to be below their liking, but femininity and attractiveness are judged by overall appearance, and you will observe in South American nations that people generally find whiter looks more appealing (just look at their models and TV personalities).
I don’t believe that almost ever celebrity has had a nose job. Look at the white models shown within the attractive women section of this site. Most of them are basically no-name non-celebrities. Do you think that most of them have had nose jobs? You can observe the worldwide phenomenon that non-Europeans seeking nose jobs are more likely to want their noses to approach European norms than to make their noses look more ethnic but the reverse is not true. Given equal opportunity, white populations with finer noses are less likely to seek nose jobs than many other populations. Therefore, the admired white look you speak of has a basis in reality, not in imagination. Tanning among whites is less than a century-old phenomenon, and is related to a tan signifying the availability of more leisure time and thereby higher socioeconomic status rather than a preference for darker skin.
You have addressed the section that addresses aesthetics in international beauty pageants. How are the examples of African-American women skewed because of their part-white ancestry? African-Americans generally average a minority white contribution. This section includes plenty of pictures of sub-Saharan African women, too. Some of the featured women with predominant sub-Saharan African ancestry are nude/glamour models. Some of the comparisons on the first page address the possibility of using pictures to make the argument that an objective comparison of beauty across ethnic groups may or may not be possible, and these pictures are not part of the argument or being used to compare the attractiveness of different ethnic groups, and hence it does not matter if some of some of the African women are shown in their natural habitat whereas the European women are nude/glamour models.
Danielle: There is no point in debating if you are going to dismiss the evidence I cite as garbage without examining it let alone refuting it. I mentioned papers such as the Jenny et al. (1994) and the Groth & Birnbaum (1978) studies used by the APA and how they don’t support the APA’s claims as justified at the cited webpages, which primarily reference data from peer-reviewed psychology and psychiatry journals.
I can cite plenty of data about the influence of the gay lobby in the APA, but it would be a waste of my time since you won’t bother going over it.
...: Do you believe that homosexual men are men with the brains/preferences of women? Hint: compare the prevalence of gastrointestinal infections -- related to sexual practices that translate to the consumption of fecal material -- in homosexual men to that in heterosexual women.
Males approaching the average looks of masculinized female high-fashion models look like adolescent males/effeminate young adult men, which is not inconsistent with your statement that “most gay men are more fond of the more feminine-looking ones.” Of course, many homosexual men are interested in masculine adult men.
Oliver: Fig. 19 is a small picture, not sufficient for evaluating the facial attractiveness of Ms. Sarahyba, but it is clear that her physique isn’t feminine regardless of the comparison. Her facial features are much clearer in Fig. 18. An attractive person should look good from all angles. If the face shape of Ms. Sarahyba looks good in some pictures but not good in others, then her face shape cannot be designated as good looking, especially if these pictures happen to have been taken professionally, which is the case in her two pictures shown here.
Danielle: At her thin self shown above, Daria was a top-ranked high-fashion model (#1, ranked by models.com, when this article was posted). Her pictures are only a few months older than the date of the entry. Therefore, the pictures illustrate well what the homosexual designers like compared to what the general public prefers. Dariafan posted a picture of Daria when she had gained weight. Guess what happened to her high-fashion model status ranking with the weight gain?
The mild censorship of Cindy should be self-explanatory. The images are for educational purposes, not titillation. There was no need to censor the woman’s groin because you cannot observe the genitals to any significant degree.
Elizabeth: I agree that Grace Kelly had a slight masculine look to her face, especially pertaining to her jaw. Since feminine women are fewer in number than normal and masculinized women combined, the majority of women will be more masculine than the feminine looks I am promoting. It is obvious that perfection does not exist among humans, but this is not to say that one shouldn’t be aiming for high standards among beauty pageant contestants and models.
Michael: High-fashion models in New York are of comparable thinness to their counterparts in Paris and Milan. There was a time when Paris led the way with its ultra thin Haute couture models, but the homosexuals had more of an influence there than in the U.S.
Most adults prefer the youthful looks of young adults, not physiques leaning toward the appearance of adolescent males (especially not in women). Most people, including the great majority of female buyers of clothing, prefer body fat levels notably higher than what you see among high-fashion models on average (read more of this site and you will encounter plenty of evidence). The typical thinness of high-fashion models has nothing to do with potential buyers being allured by the possibility of vicariously recapturing the appearance of extreme youth.
Ali: There are plenty of differences between the two women related to femininity, especially involving skeletal shape that would not be altered by exercise.
btw what I'm trying to point out is that the 'model look' seems to be somewhat more primitive/mature than population averages (though nowhere near the extent of Maria Shriver) yet no more, in fact rather LESS 'masculinized' or 'feminized' than the average population. Kinda like the body put a lot of energy into bone growth but not much into developing secondary sex characteristics.
you are trying to explain the differeces in terms of a single axis of masculine/feminine, which is incorrect.
Camille simply looks like Alessandra would if she didn't work out. There's no definition to her legs in the slightest.
Hey eric:
Which out of these two men is more primitive/robust? Which is more masculine?
http://www.cortlandschools.org/buildings/jshs/team3/images/lincoln12.jpg
http://www.nndb.com/people/064/000024989/perlman1.jpg
Which woman is more primitive? Which is more masculinized?
http://allhatnocattle.net/maria%20shriver1.jpg
http://www.galeon.com/dxstyle/dxchyna12aa.gif
I think actress Paz Vega looks like clearly like a man and don't understand how peopel think she is so hot. In this pic and so did all my firends, mom and other users on the internet thought she was a tranny. A very masculinized women imo
http://www.tccandler.com/IMAGES/actresses/PazVega/paz%20vega%20neckline.jpg
I have looked through your website and found it quite interesting and entertaining. You obviously are a highly intelligent individual. I do believe there is increasing masculinity in fashion modelling which does need some curtailing. However your argument ,while very interesting and having some valid points ,is flawed in a number of respects. I will make my assertions in relation to the above article.
Firstly, the pictures of the other woman given for comparison are most definitely altered using a photo editing program, the model is purposely posed and undressed to emphasise curves and the photos are taken from angles which magnify the hip to waist ratio and bust size. In contrast, many of the pictures portrayed of Miss Universe are normal candid shots, screen shots from the pageant and from the night after the win. Therefore these pictures are not comparable.
Both women are beautiful without a doubt. However, facially I prefer Zuleyka and she has more traits of what researchers have found to be beautiful and feminine. i.e. shorter face, bigger eyes, high cheekbones, fuller lips, better symmetry, and an original look. In profile the glamour model is unmemorable. Her features merge into one another and are quite weak. Please note weak features should not be described as feminine. I believe you must distinguish between underdeveloped features and femininity.
I do agree that Miss Universe needs to put on a few pounds as she is too thin as compared with the glamour model above. However the hip to waist ratio of Miss Unverse are still at similar proportion i.e. approx 0.7 even at a lower weight.
One last point, Latin is not a race, but in fact refers to a group of people who can be Asian, black, white or any combination of the aforementioned races. According to your pageant theory, women of different ethnicities cannot even be compared and should be streamed in pageants separately. Therefore, where do the millions of mixed race individuals fit in! Your theory does not accommodate for this. The examples of African- American women ,given on another page, are all skewed due to the fact that all these women are mixed with Caucasian. In fact most people from the Americas are all of mixed heritage. Therefore, as seems to be the case in many of the examples on your site you seemed to have picked the female with more white ancestry as more attractive.
While I will say that many Caucasian traits are accepted in popular culture as beautiful I will remind you that many classic white features are indeed not feminine. Straight and angular features are very white and very masculine. Additionally, white women have a tendency to have very thin lips which companies like Revlon have made a fortune off of. Not to mention the plastic surgeon swho alter these women with collagen for thicker lips and Rhinoplasties to take classic Roman bumps out of noses (e.g. Ashlee Simpson). Not to mention the millions of women sun worshipping and spending excessively on fake tans to look darker. Almost every celebrity (white, black and green lol) has had a nose job. Even some of the most attractive white celebrities such Britney Spears, Tom Cruise and Marilyn Monroe have done so. This leads me to believe the " white" look that is so revered is not white and is actually artificial.
It is quite funny to me also that your pictures of African and Asian women look like “National Geographic” pictures, whereas the photos of the typical white woman appear to be pornographic beauty shots of models (18 -25) in the prime of their lives covered in special stage make up with perfect lighting.
In actuality, true beauty is a mixture of all racial traits and therefore people that that have these traits, like Catherine Zeta Jones who looks mestiza mix and Angelina Jolie who is known for her thick lips etc... appeal to almost all races
Thank you for your interesting site that has kept me entertained this evening!
R.George
The points that i find most interesting in this discussion can be summed up as follows:
I would think that if you surveyed fashion designers, you would probably find that a large number are gay men, and that a large number of people working in the industry are gay men, thereby giving gay men more control over the selection of models. And you would probably find that they prefer masculine looking female models. This seems reasonable. But maybe it is not the only reason why models are masculine, though it might be a large part of it.
Add to that the fact that in North America and Europe, thin is equated with wealth - even if the wealthy are still prone to obesity (in other words - thin is in even if the rich are not, on average, thin). And the fact that Europeans are less prone to obesity and also seem have a propensity for thinner models, whereas obesity is more rampant in North America where models do not tend to be as thin (in my estimation). So i wonder if to be seen as thin in a thinner Europe therefore requires that a model be even thinner by comparison. Is this why North American models seem less thin than their European counterparts, since they do not have to be as thin to look thin next to the average super-sized American?
The most important point for me is that models do not represent the 'average' person. Forget waist to hip ratios or BMI calculations, the fact is that models represent a small fraction of emaciated individuals. Paris Hilton aside, most rich women do not look like the models on whom the clothing is being displayed. So how could any woman visualize how the clothing would look on herself? Even some of the glamour women that you depict are thin when compared to the North American average. So maybe part of the allure to women looking at these models is the pretense that she can recapture, through the purchase of these fashions, the look of extreme youth; even if she never - ever - looked that thin in her own youth.
Dreams can be a powerful and persuasive tool, even if they are unrealistic.
Jjust a few observations that i thought you might chew on for a while.
tis not the women who is too manly, this the man who is too womenly.
I basically like your site and your train of thought; all the more unfortunate it is that sometimes you have gone to the other extreme trying to justify your cause. Let's see for example the pictures of Daniella Sarahyba on this page. Yeah, she's not much from the perspective of figure as seen on Fig 19, but she has a markedly pretty and womanly face on that picture. You obviously saw that and carefully selected a much more unfavourable picture of her (Fig 18) to criticize her as masculine in the facial features. That picture simply doesn't do her justice. Of course she may again look different on a third picture, I have no idea. But that's sure once you're trying to back up your position on a semi-scientific basis, you should strive some more to look less biased.
Erik what i meant was that the majority of women have some degree of masculinity in their body or their face. For example Grace Kelly beautiful woman, but dont you agree that her jawline was somewhat masculine? The majority of women in the world have at least one flaw in their physical appearance, and i don't think the "perfect" woman or man for that matter exists.
Why don't you just post pictures of unfortunate looking children as your examples of feminine beauty? They would be just as convincing as your "glamour models."
He looks just like Claire. He is probably just as "feminine" as well.
I also wonder why you keep blurring out the areolas of your skanky "models." Is this some bizarre demonstration of modesty. I would greatly prefer if you blurred most of the greying, redneck vulvas on display. No one wants to see their ravaged goods. I sure others would echo this sentiment.
It is very convenient that you chose a picture of Daria when she was at her very thinnest to compare to that nasty girl. I admit that Daria would be unattractive to most men and women in those shots but you have once again made yourself into the homophobic court jester by choosing to compare her to Cindy.
Cindy is not a skeletor but she still looks like a minging street junkie/whore. She has a jaundiced skin tone, stringy, greasy hair, yellowing teeth and a bizarre hitleresque bikini wax. She reminds me of a strung out runaway who desperately needs a good scrubbing. I will say it again, you have awful taste. A healthier Daria would be chosen by most people over this girl in an instant.
Daria usually looks clean, fresh, cool and elegant. She looks like a girl that women can be friends with and who men would want to marry. Cindy looks like she spends her days in and out of jail or shelters for selling herself at $15 a pop at a truckstop. She has to finance her crack addiction you see.
You are really pathetic Eric. People who don't agree with your homophobic rubbish have been bullied by the gay lobby? Oh please! You are grasping at straws here. Your bullshit sources don't need to be refuted at length because it would be a waste of time to wade through all that garbage. I am sure that you can find "scientists" who believe that AIDS can be cured with cough syrup and who believe that the loch ness monster is real. Being a "scientist" doesn't mean that your "studies" or beliefs are worth debating.
You are willing to believe your bullshit sources over the studies and statements of the APA because it supports your own crackpot theories. OOOOOOOHHHHHH TEH GAY MAFIA IS EVERYWHERE! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!
If straight women prefer above average femininity in women, why would gay men prefer masculinity in women? Even with actual trannies, I know most gay men are more fond of the more feminine-looking ones. Sounds like someone here is very prejudice and bigoted!
As nature is very diverse, human beauty manifests itself in many different ways.
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