Erik, if you think women who advertise athletic equipment should look like good athletes, thus being more masculine in appearance, why do you object to the models used in the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue? It is a sports magazine aimed towards people interested in sports and athletic achievement, and you said it yourself that more feminine features diminish athletic performance, so it seems rather appropriate for the magazine to use women that are more athletic and look it too rather than the glamour models you promote. Glamour models in a sports magazine is inappropriate. There are other magazines out there that promote glamour models.
Ok so I have been looking through your site and i agree with most everything you say. I am according to what you say on the feminine side. In fact I am extremely feminine. I do have a question though. My sister is pretty masculine comapred to me. She is younger than me and while my mother was pregnant with her she had to do a lot of walking and other things harsher on the body. While she was pregnant with me she did not. Does this have anything to do with why she is so masculine and I so feminine? She has a similar body to Marissa Miller. Her shoulders are wider, hips narrower, but she does have large breasts interestingly. Anyways, for some reason guys select her over me it seems, even though my face and body are much softer and I am in shape. She is very athletic, she is artistic, and her IQ is near genius so maybe she has an advantage in those areas over me since I am average in everything, but I don't think she is more attractive than me at all. Do you think guys are picking her because they are brainwashed by magazines like sports illustrated? I don't think they care how smart she is and all that stuff so I think it has to do with the way she looks but she is masculine. Her breasts are on the larger side and they are perky, but mine are large as well. I just can't figure out why soo many guys go for her when she looks more masculine than me. Do magazines like these have an effect on the way guys see women? I think you should write an article on the psychological effects magazines like these have on men.
Erik, the Khoi-san are thought to be genetically the root stock of modern human populations worldwide. In all fairness, you should have shown a photo of this group.
The genetic record has recently become a lot more complete. I will leave it to you to do the searching to learn more on this (a good general non-Journal starting point is the National Geographic website, and the Prof John Hawkes blog http://johnhawks.net/weblog/ .
Africa was and is the home of multiple diverse root branches of H. Sapiens. One branch ultimately became the Khoisans, and the forefounders of this group underwent the first diaspora of modern H. Sapiens, moving and settling along the coastal Indian Sea. Further H.Sapiens groups from Kenya/Tanzania region had migrated into Asia, N. Africa and Europe bringing more diversity into Eurasia (comcomitant with back intermixing from Arabia to Kenya/Tanzania).
Apparently other antecedent branches of H. Sapiens had co-existed in Africa along with the group which later became Khoisans. The large size of the African continent and the geographic barriers of its jungles and climes helped maintain these branches as being rather independent over extended times. These other branches had different facial appearances. Later as population groups within Africa grew in population and migrated into different regions, with some taking up farming, the antecedent H. Sapiens branches mixed together and no longer exist as population isolates. This mixing of groups has left Africa with a rich genetic divcersity, and a rich diversity of appearances.
Alright, I'll steer clear of bringing up any topics related to IQ and the like. Still, if possible, can you provide me with any studies in regards to the skin color issue that I've mentioned before? Here's a further example of Peter Frost's work: http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2006/12/skin-color-preference-in-sub-saharan.html
I've read time and time again of many cultures preferring lighter skin among females, but this doesn't seem to hold true at all for modern western societies. And what would you have to say in the case of males with very light skin? I've heard in a number of cases that they're disliked.
There are plenty of homosexuals with no mental illness. Mental normality is a different issue from mental illness. Something normal functions in accordance with design. I have seen no evidence that homosexuality results from design.
The Swedish princess is of French ancestry. She's not a good example. Better, and more representative examples of Swedish women:
Asian women:
Nordic women are not at all similar in appearance to the primitive ancestors of man, such as the Neanderthal, whether they are feminine or not, whereas similarities can often be seen today in other races, I think.
I think every single one of these women are exetremely attractive. But unfortantly, alot of american males, never leave there own country. Don`t get me wrong I love my country. That`s why I fought for it.And how I got to see the world. I don`t want to "tick anyone off". But I feel that the contact with women outside the usually standard of, TV and mag. Limits you scale of what a man likes. Also we all in part decide what is beautiful based on what (friends,co-workers,and family)around us see as well. I`m talking about, "perspective" my friends. We see, we observe, we colabarate, we rate, and learn to rate. Sorry ladies, it starts at pubity. Point is. As a man travels to different places, make new friends,and learn different cultures. Your perspective changes. How do you think some men stay with the same women 25 years, and sees her as hot? No he`s not looney, his perspective changed. When I was playing the feild I always went for hot, superslim women. Why, that`s what the world called for, It made me the man, and she was perfect arm candy. Simple,Cool guy = slim,cute,foxy girl. But, was that my main attraction. No, sorry slim trim lovers. When I decide to choose a wife. Great top and bottom small but curvy. Why you say? Cause sex may sell. But we don`t want to settle down with a women who can`t carry a baby, and won`t feed her unborn child correctly because she`s too worried about her shape. Running around Burning my meals, or draining my bank acct. trying to stay young w/ Plastic surgery.Besides everyone knows curvy looks do last longer, than skinny looks. Fact, not busting on anyone. No one likes a skinny wrinkled old women. So, the TV and mag. may control what the public youth may see as the ultimate sex symbols but the don`t have the edge over nature. Don`t believe me? Look at Grace Jones. Oh yeah!!! Right? Heck NOOOO. But go back 20 years, and she was it. Like it or not. Why was, she hot? Well, some famous dude (gay or straight I don`t know I don`t keep up with that stuff)said so. So everyone said," if HE, the man with the doe said so, it must be true. People agree and thus the labeling is placed. So Model dude you have a point. But, I`ve also been to africa, and there are alot beautiful women with strong jaws, and superslim and, very, very, attractive bodies. It looks great on "them" because it`s there chemical make up (Or chemi.cookie as I like to say). But let`s not say that`s the only super hot, cookie out there. Relax model dude! The media can`t change chemical attraction. Some hot momma`s gonna punch all of our cards,And they ain`t all super models, And men your gonna enjoy getting you cards punched. that`s mankind, we don`t know what the heck we want. Sly God aint gonna let that happen.
Erik, your judgment is definitely flawed in this one. As a lifelong heterosexual male, I definitely think that Elle is more attractive than Monica. Elle is deserving of the title, "The Body", in this scenario. Elle's legs, frankly, steal the show. Monica's legs, while long for a girl, are not particularly long in proportion to the rest of her body; Elle's legs are long even in proportion to her body. Elle's butt is also still ample, even in comparison to Monica's. While Elle's hips are not as wide as Monica's and Elle's shoulders are wider, these features do not detract from her overall attractiveness. Elle's shoulders are not even that wide to begin with. Finally, Elle's face is unequivocally more feminine and prettier. Look at the first side-by-side photos. Elle's face is prettier, her eyes are bigger, her lips are thicker, and her jaw/chin is less defined. Monica's face is simply plain and dull--very average looking.
Actually that homosexuality thing is more or less a myth... I have a few friends who are fashion designers (women and men) and they all say it is much easier to design clothes and go crazy on thinner, uniform models... It's just more practical for them but unfortunately it makes things quite impractical for models and models-to-be that aren't naturally washboard flat/straight.
Jenni, who is probably German or Czech, is obviously gorgeous. Certainly the most beautiful and desireable woman on the web today. I hope we see more of her regularly!
fds:The passage you quoted doesn’t have anything to do with beauty, but as you can observe throughout this site, the discussion often digresses to off-topic issues, and I am usually not the person starting the off-topic discussion. You have yourself posted off-topic comments elsewhere.
When my sister went to art school in the 1970s, she made this same observation about "gay men in the fashion industry imagine what it would be like to dress boys." As a straight male, I do not find the runway models attractive. Indeed, they've always reminded me of concentration camp victims. I think if the author of this site has a valuable point to make it is that the notion of beauty manufactured by the fashion industry is out of whack with what a lot of us (perhaps most) consider beautiful. The models generally aren't the sexiest. If it were a beauty contest for men like me, the models from Met Art would win hands down. But if the point is to sell clothing for women, perhaps the proper method would be to display clothing on women of all shapes and sizes. In any case, they should at least have enough body fat to menstruate. And maybe not be meth addicts and coke fiends; that's never a good example.
"It is not just the Australian aborigines, but here in the U.S., all attempts to educate the West African stock on par with whites and make them comparably intellectually and economically productive have failed."
What in god's name does this racialist trash have to do with beauty?
In South Asia men like to look at women breasts hips and rear end a little flesh around the waist and arms too.
Women don't judge guys as much, guys judge other guys therefore they need to work out.
No historic impact.
In places like south Asia the rule is similar however attractiveness is different. For example women that are bulky are looked upon as more 'sexy' this is because it expresses a financial statement, since south asian's are poor (generally) a women with bulk would be perceived as someone who comes from a family of wealth.
A muscular man well toned would not be considered more attractive then a fat man.
I've been doing a research on the psychology of modelizers--men who only date high-fashion models. This website is refreshing; it reassures my argument that ego-thirsty, power-driven men are attracted to status, not beauty. High-fashion models are status symbols, not feminine beauty in any way. Although there are a few bones to pick, you certainly provide some illuminating information.
Indian people prefer white looks now not because of their distaste for aboriginal looks.
White people are a status symbol about wealth. aboriginals are not wealthy.
The article is about the nose, but the discussion has digressed into a lot of issues that are not related to the article. I have lots of comments to reply to, and I had better get around to replying to them or else the discussion will become worse. My first of a series of comments shall be about some misconceptions regarding Swedes and Indians that is not helping the discussion, which shouldn’t be here in the first place.
In this paragraph I will be specifically talking about white/Nordic Swedes. The only group in Sweden that is mostly blond comprises of children. Among adults, about 1 in 3 have some shade of blond hair. Most of the rest have various shades of brown hair and some have black or red hair. The frequency of blue eyes is probably around 55%, not all the same shade; the rest comprise of all other eye colors found in humans. Therefore, the chief characteristic of Nordic hair and eye color is its diversity, not the blond-blue-eyed combination, which only a minority of adults have.
The indigenous populations of Sweden comprise of different ethnic groups, the majority being the Hallstatt or Österdal Nordic type, which is especially prevalent in Southern Sweden. The Hallstatt Nordic is the reference standard for Nordic beauty. Therefore, pictures of ordinary individuals belonging to this ethnic group had best be sourced from Southern Sweden. In northernmost Sweden, one runs into the Saami or Lapps, a white-Asian mixed people. Cities like Malmo would not be a good place because lots of immigrants live here. Cities like Stockholm would be a valid choice but the problem of cosmopolitan cities is that they have their fare share of immigrants, and in the settings from which Emily’s pictures are drawn, a non-trivial number of whites will not be of the Hallstatt Nordic type, but see enough of these pictures and those who have not been to Sweden can figure out what Nordic white looks are about.
There is a lot of ethnic diversity in India, and if ordinary individuals from the best-looking group in Sweden, the Hallstatt Nordic, are offered as examples of the average attractiveness of Nordic Swedes, then it is only fair that ordinary individuals from the best-looking group(s) in India be shown to assess the average attractiveness of the better looking groups in India. It appears that Andrea has no idea about these people or she would not cite Mumbia and Goa as examples (both in central India) to counter Emily. The better looking Indians – by the standards of the Indians – cluster among the upper caste people and their equivalent in Northern India. Look at this collage, featuring upper caste Hindus, presumably from the Northern regions, and specifically note the ethnic characteristics. In this collage, all people shown are ordinary Indians, not models or actors. The images are not supposed to be representative, but my point will become clear shortly. These Indians will be found to be among the better looking ordinary Indians by Indians in general because their face shapes are closer to European norms and also because their skin is lighter, on average. These Indians will also be found to be among the better looking ordinary Indians by Swedes because their face shapes are closer to European norms – skin color will usually not be an issue for Swedes or Europeans in general.
The nice thing would be to come across pictures of large groups of Northern upper caste Hindus in ordinary settings, but there are some caveats here. Upper caste Hindus or their equivalents are a minority among Indians whereas the Hallstatt Nordic predominates in Sweden, especially the southern region. When a majority Hallstatt Nordic population absorbs a few people of other European ethnies, the average characteristics of the Hallstatt group barely change, whereas when a minority of upper caste Hindus slowly absorb the majority among which they live over a long time, then this minority changes significantly. Hence, it is not at all unusual to see upper caste Hindus with facial features more common among the lower castes and untouchables. The other caveat is that the Indian government has maintained an aggressive affirmative action program that provides jobs and high quality education to untouchables (many times the number of upper caste people) and miscellaneous low caste individuals. So in many settings, say, office settings, we will see these untouchables and other low caste people along with upper caste Hindus. See this picture of college students from a campus in Northern India. You can see some individuals of the more Northern variety (lighter skin, faces closer to European norms) along with others presumably disproportionately comprising of lower caste or untouchable descent or having more of these elements.
If Andrea – or anyone else – doesn’t believe me, I recommend befriending some upper caste Hindus from the North and asking them how much they appreciate the average looks of the Indians other than the Northern ones. Honest Indians from the central or south regions will acknowledge their admiration for the looks of upper caste Northern Indians and their equivalent. This is reflected in Indian movies and among Indian models. This would also be generally reflected among Indian beauty pageant contestants were it not for political considerations that often elevate the darker, more aboriginal-facial-featured women. These political considerations would be less successful in movies since the average consumer doesn’t have high regard for more aboriginal facial features. The Indian government has also been known to ban some advertisements for skin lightening creams, and there are lots of dark Indians who complain about skin color prejudice in India, even calling it racist. So, Andrea’s Mumbai or Goa example was a bad one, and her pictures of ordinary Indians are bad, too. Ordinary individuals from the most attractive group that Sweden has to offer – the Hallstatt Nordic – should be contrasted, if there is any such need, with ordinary individuals from the most attractive group that India has to offer – the upper caste Northern Indians and their equivalent among non-Hindus.
Erik, if you think women who advertise athletic equipment should look like good athletes, thus being more masculine in appearance, why do you object to the models used in the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue? It is a sports magazine aimed towards people interested in sports and athletic achievement, and you said it yourself that more feminine features diminish athletic performance, so it seems rather appropriate for the magazine to use women that are more athletic and look it too rather than the glamour models you promote. Glamour models in a sports magazine is inappropriate. There are other magazines out there that promote glamour models.
Ok so I have been looking through your site and i agree with most everything you say. I am according to what you say on the feminine side. In fact I am extremely feminine. I do have a question though. My sister is pretty masculine comapred to me. She is younger than me and while my mother was pregnant with her she had to do a lot of walking and other things harsher on the body. While she was pregnant with me she did not. Does this have anything to do with why she is so masculine and I so feminine? She has a similar body to Marissa Miller. Her shoulders are wider, hips narrower, but she does have large breasts interestingly. Anyways, for some reason guys select her over me it seems, even though my face and body are much softer and I am in shape. She is very athletic, she is artistic, and her IQ is near genius so maybe she has an advantage in those areas over me since I am average in everything, but I don't think she is more attractive than me at all. Do you think guys are picking her because they are brainwashed by magazines like sports illustrated? I don't think they care how smart she is and all that stuff so I think it has to do with the way she looks but she is masculine. Her breasts are on the larger side and they are perky, but mine are large as well. I just can't figure out why soo many guys go for her when she looks more masculine than me. Do magazines like these have an effect on the way guys see women? I think you should write an article on the psychological effects magazines like these have on men.
That is absolutly insane!
Why can't people just contend with what they got? I guess there is ALWAYS room for improvement!
Erik, the Khoi-san are thought to be genetically the root stock of modern human populations worldwide. In all fairness, you should have shown a photo of this group.
The genetic record has recently become a lot more complete. I will leave it to you to do the searching to learn more on this (a good general non-Journal starting point is the National Geographic website, and the Prof John Hawkes blog http://johnhawks.net/weblog/ .
Africa was and is the home of multiple diverse root branches of H. Sapiens. One branch ultimately became the Khoisans, and the forefounders of this group underwent the first diaspora of modern H. Sapiens, moving and settling along the coastal Indian Sea. Further H.Sapiens groups from Kenya/Tanzania region had migrated into Asia, N. Africa and Europe bringing more diversity into Eurasia (comcomitant with back intermixing from Arabia to Kenya/Tanzania).
Apparently other antecedent branches of H. Sapiens had co-existed in Africa along with the group which later became Khoisans. The large size of the African continent and the geographic barriers of its jungles and climes helped maintain these branches as being rather independent over extended times. These other branches had different facial appearances. Later as population groups within Africa grew in population and migrated into different regions, with some taking up farming, the antecedent H. Sapiens branches mixed together and no longer exist as population isolates. This mixing of groups has left Africa with a rich genetic divcersity, and a rich diversity of appearances.
Alright, I'll steer clear of bringing up any topics related to IQ and the like. Still, if possible, can you provide me with any studies in regards to the skin color issue that I've mentioned before? Here's a further example of Peter Frost's work: http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2006/12/skin-color-preference-in-sub-saharan.html
I've read time and time again of many cultures preferring lighter skin among females, but this doesn't seem to hold true at all for modern western societies. And what would you have to say in the case of males with very light skin? I've heard in a number of cases that they're disliked.
There are plenty of homosexuals with no mental illness. Mental normality is a different issue from mental illness. Something normal functions in accordance with design. I have seen no evidence that homosexuality results from design.
The Swedish princess is of French ancestry. She's not a good example. Better, and more representative examples of Swedish women:
Asian women:
Nordic women are not at all similar in appearance to the primitive ancestors of man, such as the Neanderthal, whether they are feminine or not, whereas similarities can often be seen today in other races, I think.
I think every single one of these women are exetremely attractive. But unfortantly, alot of american males, never leave there own country. Don`t get me wrong I love my country. That`s why I fought for it.And how I got to see the world. I don`t want to "tick anyone off". But I feel that the contact with women outside the usually standard of, TV and mag. Limits you scale of what a man likes. Also we all in part decide what is beautiful based on what (friends,co-workers,and family)around us see as well. I`m talking about, "perspective" my friends. We see, we observe, we colabarate, we rate, and learn to rate. Sorry ladies, it starts at pubity. Point is. As a man travels to different places, make new friends,and learn different cultures. Your perspective changes. How do you think some men stay with the same women 25 years, and sees her as hot? No he`s not looney, his perspective changed. When I was playing the feild I always went for hot, superslim women. Why, that`s what the world called for, It made me the man, and she was perfect arm candy. Simple,Cool guy = slim,cute,foxy girl. But, was that my main attraction. No, sorry slim trim lovers. When I decide to choose a wife. Great top and bottom small but curvy. Why you say? Cause sex may sell. But we don`t want to settle down with a women who can`t carry a baby, and won`t feed her unborn child correctly because she`s too worried about her shape. Running around Burning my meals, or draining my bank acct. trying to stay young w/ Plastic surgery.Besides everyone knows curvy looks do last longer, than skinny looks. Fact, not busting on anyone. No one likes a skinny wrinkled old women. So, the TV and mag. may control what the public youth may see as the ultimate sex symbols but the don`t have the edge over nature. Don`t believe me? Look at Grace Jones. Oh yeah!!! Right? Heck NOOOO. But go back 20 years, and she was it. Like it or not. Why was, she hot? Well, some famous dude (gay or straight I don`t know I don`t keep up with that stuff)said so. So everyone said," if HE, the man with the doe said so, it must be true. People agree and thus the labeling is placed. So Model dude you have a point. But, I`ve also been to africa, and there are alot beautiful women with strong jaws, and superslim and, very, very, attractive bodies. It looks great on "them" because it`s there chemical make up (Or chemi.cookie as I like to say). But let`s not say that`s the only super hot, cookie out there. Relax model dude! The media can`t change chemical attraction. Some hot momma`s gonna punch all of our cards,And they ain`t all super models, And men your gonna enjoy getting you cards punched. that`s mankind, we don`t know what the heck we want. Sly God aint gonna let that happen.
Erik, your judgment is definitely flawed in this one. As a lifelong heterosexual male, I definitely think that Elle is more attractive than Monica. Elle is deserving of the title, "The Body", in this scenario. Elle's legs, frankly, steal the show. Monica's legs, while long for a girl, are not particularly long in proportion to the rest of her body; Elle's legs are long even in proportion to her body. Elle's butt is also still ample, even in comparison to Monica's. While Elle's hips are not as wide as Monica's and Elle's shoulders are wider, these features do not detract from her overall attractiveness. Elle's shoulders are not even that wide to begin with. Finally, Elle's face is unequivocally more feminine and prettier. Look at the first side-by-side photos. Elle's face is prettier, her eyes are bigger, her lips are thicker, and her jaw/chin is less defined. Monica's face is simply plain and dull--very average looking.
Actually that homosexuality thing is more or less a myth... I have a few friends who are fashion designers (women and men) and they all say it is much easier to design clothes and go crazy on thinner, uniform models... It's just more practical for them but unfortunately it makes things quite impractical for models and models-to-be that aren't naturally washboard flat/straight.
Jenni, who is probably German or Czech, is obviously gorgeous. Certainly the most beautiful and desireable woman on the web today. I hope we see more of her regularly!
You've piqued my interest with that comment about the IQ gap. Pray tell, what do you mean when ALL attempts to close the gaps have failed?
Adriana Lima: I prefer vulgar taste to taste so refined that the person prefers vomit to dinner.
Youre comparing women to DINNER????
You got nothing there inside your head...my case is rested.
Vulgar,ordinary people have vulgar ordinary tastes...
The beauty queen is a lot better looking , the other one looks like an undeveloped child with a maternal body ,very disturbing.
fds:The passage you quoted doesn’t have anything to do with beauty, but as you can observe throughout this site, the discussion often digresses to off-topic issues, and I am usually not the person starting the off-topic discussion. You have yourself posted off-topic comments elsewhere.
When my sister went to art school in the 1970s, she made this same observation about "gay men in the fashion industry imagine what it would be like to dress boys." As a straight male, I do not find the runway models attractive. Indeed, they've always reminded me of concentration camp victims. I think if the author of this site has a valuable point to make it is that the notion of beauty manufactured by the fashion industry is out of whack with what a lot of us (perhaps most) consider beautiful. The models generally aren't the sexiest. If it were a beauty contest for men like me, the models from Met Art would win hands down. But if the point is to sell clothing for women, perhaps the proper method would be to display clothing on women of all shapes and sizes. In any case, they should at least have enough body fat to menstruate. And maybe not be meth addicts and coke fiends; that's never a good example.
"It is not just the Australian aborigines, but here in the U.S., all attempts to educate the West African stock on par with whites and make them comparably intellectually and economically productive have failed."
What in god's name does this racialist trash have to do with beauty?
In South Asia men like to look at women breasts hips and rear end a little flesh around the waist and arms too.
Women don't judge guys as much, guys judge other guys therefore they need to work out.
No historic impact.
In places like south Asia the rule is similar however attractiveness is different. For example women that are bulky are looked upon as more 'sexy' this is because it expresses a financial statement, since south asian's are poor (generally) a women with bulk would be perceived as someone who comes from a family of wealth.
A muscular man well toned would not be considered more attractive then a fat man.
I wonder what the historic impact is of this?
Amina
I've been doing a research on the psychology of modelizers--men who only date high-fashion models. This website is refreshing; it reassures my argument that ego-thirsty, power-driven men are attracted to status, not beauty. High-fashion models are status symbols, not feminine beauty in any way. Although there are a few bones to pick, you certainly provide some illuminating information.
Indian people prefer white looks now not because of their distaste for aboriginal looks.
White people are a status symbol about wealth. aboriginals are not wealthy.
get a life!!!!!!!
u got a thick waist...deal with it or loose weight!
"erik,erik,erik,erik this,erik that,erik,erik"
it doesnt matter if youre hourglass or not...your fckn annoyin and therefore not attractive!
The article is about the nose, but the discussion has digressed into a lot of issues that are not related to the article. I have lots of comments to reply to, and I had better get around to replying to them or else the discussion will become worse. My first of a series of comments shall be about some misconceptions regarding Swedes and Indians that is not helping the discussion, which shouldn’t be here in the first place.
In this paragraph I will be specifically talking about white/Nordic Swedes. The only group in Sweden that is mostly blond comprises of children. Among adults, about 1 in 3 have some shade of blond hair. Most of the rest have various shades of brown hair and some have black or red hair. The frequency of blue eyes is probably around 55%, not all the same shade; the rest comprise of all other eye colors found in humans. Therefore, the chief characteristic of Nordic hair and eye color is its diversity, not the blond-blue-eyed combination, which only a minority of adults have.
The indigenous populations of Sweden comprise of different ethnic groups, the majority being the Hallstatt or Österdal Nordic type, which is especially prevalent in Southern Sweden. The Hallstatt Nordic is the reference standard for Nordic beauty. Therefore, pictures of ordinary individuals belonging to this ethnic group had best be sourced from Southern Sweden. In northernmost Sweden, one runs into the Saami or Lapps, a white-Asian mixed people. Cities like Malmo would not be a good place because lots of immigrants live here. Cities like Stockholm would be a valid choice but the problem of cosmopolitan cities is that they have their fare share of immigrants, and in the settings from which Emily’s pictures are drawn, a non-trivial number of whites will not be of the Hallstatt Nordic type, but see enough of these pictures and those who have not been to Sweden can figure out what Nordic white looks are about.
There is a lot of ethnic diversity in India, and if ordinary individuals from the best-looking group in Sweden, the Hallstatt Nordic, are offered as examples of the average attractiveness of Nordic Swedes, then it is only fair that ordinary individuals from the best-looking group(s) in India be shown to assess the average attractiveness of the better looking groups in India. It appears that Andrea has no idea about these people or she would not cite Mumbia and Goa as examples (both in central India) to counter Emily. The better looking Indians – by the standards of the Indians – cluster among the upper caste people and their equivalent in Northern India. Look at this collage, featuring upper caste Hindus, presumably from the Northern regions, and specifically note the ethnic characteristics. In this collage, all people shown are ordinary Indians, not models or actors. The images are not supposed to be representative, but my point will become clear shortly. These Indians will be found to be among the better looking ordinary Indians by Indians in general because their face shapes are closer to European norms and also because their skin is lighter, on average. These Indians will also be found to be among the better looking ordinary Indians by Swedes because their face shapes are closer to European norms – skin color will usually not be an issue for Swedes or Europeans in general.
The nice thing would be to come across pictures of large groups of Northern upper caste Hindus in ordinary settings, but there are some caveats here. Upper caste Hindus or their equivalents are a minority among Indians whereas the Hallstatt Nordic predominates in Sweden, especially the southern region. When a majority Hallstatt Nordic population absorbs a few people of other European ethnies, the average characteristics of the Hallstatt group barely change, whereas when a minority of upper caste Hindus slowly absorb the majority among which they live over a long time, then this minority changes significantly. Hence, it is not at all unusual to see upper caste Hindus with facial features more common among the lower castes and untouchables. The other caveat is that the Indian government has maintained an aggressive affirmative action program that provides jobs and high quality education to untouchables (many times the number of upper caste people) and miscellaneous low caste individuals. So in many settings, say, office settings, we will see these untouchables and other low caste people along with upper caste Hindus. See this picture of college students from a campus in Northern India. You can see some individuals of the more Northern variety (lighter skin, faces closer to European norms) along with others presumably disproportionately comprising of lower caste or untouchable descent or having more of these elements.
If Andrea – or anyone else – doesn’t believe me, I recommend befriending some upper caste Hindus from the North and asking them how much they appreciate the average looks of the Indians other than the Northern ones. Honest Indians from the central or south regions will acknowledge their admiration for the looks of upper caste Northern Indians and their equivalent. This is reflected in Indian movies and among Indian models. This would also be generally reflected among Indian beauty pageant contestants were it not for political considerations that often elevate the darker, more aboriginal-facial-featured women. These political considerations would be less successful in movies since the average consumer doesn’t have high regard for more aboriginal facial features. The Indian government has also been known to ban some advertisements for skin lightening creams, and there are lots of dark Indians who complain about skin color prejudice in India, even calling it racist. So, Andrea’s Mumbai or Goa example was a bad one, and her pictures of ordinary Indians are bad, too. Ordinary individuals from the most attractive group that Sweden has to offer – the Hallstatt Nordic – should be contrasted, if there is any such need, with ordinary individuals from the most attractive group that India has to offer – the upper caste Northern Indians and their equivalent among non-Hindus.
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