Adris: The information has nothing to do with masculinity-femininity, and is for those who might need it. Sometimes this website will mention surgical solutions to improving looks or functionality, but this doesn’t mean that I am saying that women with the condition addressed must undergo the procedure or that I endorse the procedure.
I love your site and your message, but this... this is a little twisted. How is this congruent with femininity vs. masculinity in women??? Female genitals, regardless of their size, shape, color, etc. are inherently feminine!
Hi Erik. I just stumbled across your site and read through most of it. It's interesting, your comparisons between models. I work in the fashion industry doing photo retouching and work with many high fashion models. Just wanted to give you some more info.
A lot of the differences in these models isn't that they are 'more masculine' but in many cases, their low body fat percentage shows their facial bones more.
You are right in that most high-fashion models have long, lean, athletic bodies. I think the reason for this would be that this is the body type that would have the longest legs. A thin model at 5'10" has legs that appear much longer than a prettier, curvier model at 5'5". In recent times, high fashion models are desired to have a strong, imposing, yet blank-slate look, to give an air of purpose and 'too busy for you' which is directly influenced from the paparazzi and celebrity wealth. With this height/thinness/long-legged look comes broader shoulders and ribcages (due to obvious proportions in the human body.)
I do not disagree with your assertion that most high-fashion models are thinner, more shapeless than the modern day woman, but I must argue against your reasoning behind it. For one, like I mentioned above, this is a 'look' in fashion, but high-fashion models do not necessarily represent the ideal aesthetic for the modern woman. They represent a 'style' much like clothing, cars, your hair, and for now, that style says "confidence, power, and fearlessness." It's easy to see that there are many more beautiful women out there.
Most importantly, though, having worked with many creative and art directors, you may be surprised to learn that women are by FAR the most judgmental when it comes to other women. I have retouched several models for different companies and harsh critiques come from other women, not men or gay fashion designers. For some reason, women scrutinize and nitpick at other women to such a degree, and with such 'colorful dialogue' it's almost an obsessive phobia of body fat, curves, and blemishes. Men are much more accepting and lax about the models, whether they are straight or gay men.
I'm not sure what this says about our culture, but it's something that happens quite frequently.
As for Victoria's Secret, you might be surprised to learn that the vast majority of creatives who work there are women, with the occasional straight and gay man thrown in. The designers do not have a say in what models/marketing/advertising strategies are used.
Hope this sheds some light on the whys and whats a little more. Have a good day.
I just re-read my letter and I feel the need to clarify the reason why I referred to American women as neurotic…it came off much more offensive than I intended.
I (and many other people besides myself) see fault in the so-called Protestant work ethic/ Calvinistic values which are at the heart of the American psyche. You have to be this and this and that and achieve A, B, C, and D in order to prove to the world that you are a worthwhile human being before you can believe it yourself. This is backwards.
I also didn’t mean to imply that only women are affected by this. However, psychologists have noted time and again that women tend to turn anger inward and become more SELF-destructive, while men oftentimes project anger outward.
I happened to cross paths with your site the other day, and I haven’t quite been able to get it out of my mind since. You bring up many fascinating points, and yet I find that I can’t necessarily agree with you in your take on the fashion world. I apologize if I’ve missed a few things, as I only perused a few pages, but I thought the point of view of a female artist might interest you.
You say that fashion models are relatively masculine in accordance with homosexual aesthetic, and that they create body image issues with everyday women who aspire to forgo the classic hourglass shape. I am not going to dispute this. You also say that their facial structure tends to be more masculine. I can see this as well. However, you are speaking in a strictly biological sense. Fashion shows and fashion photography is not supposed to be about feminine beauty, as you clearly have discovered. It is about art. And art (or many kinds of art) is about exaggeration, not necessarily a desired reality. The beauty of the fashion model is in her unearthliness—unique and eye-catching features together with basic symmetry. These women are ethereal. And I suppose, to fully appreciate their looks, one may require a certain predilection for the arts—a thing which many women and homosexual men tend to have by nature of being less mathematical and more abstract in mind (not that heterosexual men always lack this, but you get what I mean I hope).
The blame in the body image issue, in my mind, should not solely be attributed to the fashion world, but rather in Anglo-Saxon western society (and the United States in particular..) for bringing up such neurotic women. My mother is from Brazil, so I’ve grown up with a much different perspective than many of my fellow American females. It seems that women in this country lack a basic identity—they feel the need to conform to everything that is thrown at them. They think they need to look like a fashionista , be a hardworking career women, and have a whole brood of brats at home. I really believe that those who exclusively put the blame on the fashion industry are ignoring some core problems.
There is also the theory that as societies become more industrialized, and childbearing becomes secondary, the ultra thin frame naturally is more idealized. This is one reason why even in Brazil, the “guitar-shaped” woman is not quite the desired physique it once was. One could put the blame on Giselle, of course. But in reality it is probably a combination of many things.
The main thing I wanted to stress to you is just that as modern people we oftentimes forget that this is a very artificial world. It’s been a long time in the making, but now we’re stuck here and must make the best of it. Human consciousness is much different than it was even in Roman times. The mind is constantly evolving, and with it society and its departure from nature. In a strictly biological sense, your evaluation of beauty is no doubt very correct. But biology is no longer the only factor, is it? We aren’t living in a rain forest. We’re living in a shiny plastic corporate society. Aesthetic taste is no longer determined merely by biology, but imagination, too.
I’m sorry if I was a bit blunt, or if I offended you in any way, but I hope my letter at least caught your attention somewhat.
I think the girl with the small ribcage actually looks odd. Her torso is too slender and not in proportion, in my view. Also, you seem to confuse feminine with a very round face (Ekaterina). Extremely round and broad faces are typical of Russian and other slavic women, but they are not more feminine than scandinavian women's faces, for example, which tend to be more oval or elongated. On the contrary, the basketball roundness of Ekaterina's face adds heaviness and seems too robust, and that's not in any way feminine. Slavic women often lack refined features, and when they do they are not good examples of feminine women, in my opinion.
I think that people find faces with similar features to themselves most atractive whatever race that person is, beauty is not link to a race or even conventional thinking, I really think it's the person who is beautiful or ugly, whatever there appearence is like.
Roy: The popularity of the Bratz girls is not merely a function of their looks, and they have many of the same physical features as Barbie. So Magro’s argument still applies. The nose bridge doesn’t look very derived, but Barbie’s a doll and there is bound to be some cartoonish elements in her. Look at the overall appearance.
----------------Lying to children----------------
I don’t believe truth is always better and neither would I teach this to children. I believe that truth is preferable to falsehood and that lying is wrong. However, what if there is a scenario where the outcome of telling the truth leads to a wrong that is worse than the wrong of lying? In this case, my attitude is that the lesser of the two wrongs is preferable and hence I don’t believe that the truth is always better.
I also believe that the truth is bound to win in the long run and that the truth shall make us free. And if the truth is bound to win in the long run, then this goal cannot be thwarted by traversing the path of falsehood; nothing prevents one from ultimately making the truth obvious by using falsehood.
In my interactions with children, I have often caught them lying about silly matters, but my response has been “A-ha, caught you lying!” in an amused manner, which has prompted a response along the lines of “bummer!” on the part of children. It is normal for children to lie, just to experiment with what they can get away with, and my kind of attitude will prompt them to come up with more sophisticated lies, i.e., lies that they are more likely to get away with, which will come in handy in the real world when they face a scenario where the wrong of lying is preferable to the wrong resulting from telling the truth. One may argue that my parenting or child mentoring attitude may result in children developing into pathological liars, but I believe that whereas my attitude can help those toward social pathology inclined to get away with lies, it cannot orient one toward social pathology.
Children often live in a fantasy world of super heroes, fairies, gnomes and supernatural forces. They are interested in the language of fantasy, not the far duller reality of adults’ lives. My bringing in gorillas is speaking to them in a language they enjoy even though the context they find very distasteful. Why use a clinical description of how babies come about? When the time comes, they shall learn. They shall know that I lied to them and learn to not trust me blindly. This is important. Children tend to be naïve. They need to learn not to blindly believe everything they are told. They also shouldn’t be skeptical of every claim and hence end up believing hardly anything. They need to develop the ability to make a reasonable guess as to which claim is probably correct, which claim is probably false and which issues are worth spending time on doing an independent investigation because there are too many claims, too much information, but very little time. This ability takes time to develop and they had best start young. What better way to set children on this path than by using non-malicious lies like the gorilla example?
I made no claims about dolls being bad role models. I made a point about inappropriate language and a stupid tool for educating children.
Here are a few things regarding negative comments on Melisande’s looks. This page is a follow-up on a previous article featuring Melisande where Danielle and the woman posting here as z/fucking erik and on the previous page as son of Geats, Gee! and blue fog were the two main critics. Danielle has toned down here, but as I left a comment in the first entry on Melisande, Danielle was not really critiquing the looks of Melisande as much as she was trying to trash my work or express her anger toward me. Still, Danielle’s criticism of Melisande’s looks was never as bad as that of some other women on her part. In the same comment I also explained that z, based on her extensive comments, is most likely a thin woman lacking feminine curves who is disturbed by this site and has a problem with white women. The reader can note how sane this individual by looking at the contents of her numerous comments left at this site. She has pointlessly posted numerous pictures of alleged Asian transvestites (male cross-dressers here) on this page, but an examination of the pictures reveals that a number of them are not transvestites but male-to-female transsexuals that have undergone facial feminization surgery. Z also described Melisande as long faced and Nordic, neither of which she is.
Other than Danielle and z, we have “f” leaving a comment about Melisande having a sore-laden backside, which none of the photos on this page show. There were some spots on her backside in a picture in the first entry on her, and it should be assumed that f’s comment is another example of expressing anger at this site rather than genuine trashing of Melisande’s looks.
Then we have Sarah. She happens to be a thin woman lacking feminine curves and is greatly incensed by this site. Before anyone seriously takes her negative comments against Melisande, one should consider how much credibility she has. She has trashed some of the models I have featured in much worse terms and said that she would rather look like Alessandra Ambrosio. Der Wanderer found this series of images about Alessandra Ambrosio (the top 4 images) and she had to eat her words.
The other individual that had negative comments against Melisande’s looks is Adrian who has described himself as a male homosexual, and based on his many comments is clearly angered by this site. The open-mouth expression is a deliberately adopted expression to look seductive rather than a normal feature in Melisande, and she doesn’t look stupid by a long shot or else I wouldn’t describe her as looking like a scholar/academic in glasses and in the Halloween dress that looks like the dress that people wear during the graduation ceremony.
Keeping these things in mind, Byrne’s comment is mostly inapplicable. It is not true that “Of course it is strange that the ones who seem to come to her aid do so to prove that they would indeed enjoy a little fornication time.” Melisande’s looks are enough for people to come to her “aid” regardless of the fornication issue. For instance, I can judge the attractiveness of men without any desire to fornicate with them.
-----------other issues-----------
Chris: When I say that Melisande looks better than the typical high-fashion model and make the case by showing pictures, this is not exactly a scientific manner of making an argument, but if you are interested in scientific evidence then you will note that Melisande is less masculine than the typical high-fashion model (not a subjective opinion) and hence would generally be more appealing to the majority, given much literature on the majority’s aesthetic preferences, provided that she is not lacking with respect to symmetry, normal physical development and healthy skin compared to the typical high-fashion model (which happens to be the case).
An AP report claims that the 2009 Spring NY fashion week featured more size 2 and 4 models than in the recent past. This may very well be, but I’d like to comment on some excerpts, mostly from Nian Fish.
“I think there’s progress,” said Fish, creative consultant for KCD Worldwide, which produces fashion shows and events. “The girls are still slim. We didn’t want them not to be slim. We wanted a projection of health.”
Hon, a one-time minor change is not proof of progress. Under pressure, designers may add more size 2 and 4 models when they are likely to be especially scrutinized, namely during fashion week, but otherwise, as in magazine photoshoots, it will be business as usual.
Because of the [CFDA] initiative, some models were identified as having an eating disorder, referred for treatment and are back on the runways, Fish said. Some who didn’t look healthy weren’t used.
Liar, liar, pants on fire!
There has been some pressure for designers to increase their model size to a 6, but the designers prefer models whose modest curves don’t compete with the clothes, Fish said.
Okay hon, I grant you this. But what, pray, explains the typical boyish looks of the models? There is surely no shortage of thin girls with girlish looks.
London recently dropped its plan to require medical exams for models because of a lack of international support.
Lack of support on whose part? The queer designers’!
“Thin is going to be the ruling look — until someone says, ‘I want voluptuous,’” said Fish. “I don’t know if that ever is going to come back.”
Well, I say I want voluptuous, but nothing happens. The ‘someone’ needs to be a large number of fashion designers, and being of the non-queer variety, they will have to form their own alternative fashion industry.
Eating disorders groups have recommended requiring adult models to have a body mass index of at least 18.5 — the lower limits of a normal weight — and an independent medical certification affirming that they do not suffer from an eating disorder. “They do drug testing for sports. Why? To keep competition clean but hopefully also to save lives. That’s what we want, too,” said Lynn Grefe, CEO of the National Eating Disorders Association.
But such measures are called Draconian by Dr. Susan Ice, a medical director for an eating disorders treatment center and member of the Council of Fashion Designers of America health initiative.
For now, the goal is simply to raise awareness, said CFDA president Diane von Furstenberg. “I think that it’s a good thing to do it the way we’re doing it as opposed to throwing those poor girls on a scale and terrifying them even more,” she said.
Raise awareness? You mean that the models don’t know that they are very thin and need to eat in a healthy manner? This clown tries to make it look like it is the fault of the models.
As a new model at 15, Coco Rocha said she went to Singapore and lost 10 pounds in six weeks. When she returned to the U.S. she was so obsessed with food, she beat herself up over eating an apple. “I’ll never forget the piece of advice I got from people in the industry when they saw my new body,” she wrote in an e-mail to The Associated Press. “They said, ‘You need to lose more weight. The look this year is anorexia. We don’t want you to be anorexic but that’s what we want you to look like.’”
When I was about 4 or 5 I asked my Mother where I come from she told me the truth...
I think that I'm happy she told me the truth and none of that stork (or for you Gorilla) rubbish. Lying is not the answer, this little boy who you told that too went on thinking things that are not true.
Personally I would have just said, as I have to my younger sister, "ask mum"... it wasn't your right as a babysitter to decided what that little boy thought.
People complain about what children are being taught, maybe children need to be taught the correct thing and not lies. Parents wonder why children don't ask them about the world, well, if you lied to them when they were little then when they get older and find out the truth they are not going to want to come and ask you because they will think you will most likely lie to them like you have in the past.
You teach your children not to lie by telling them that "lying is wrong" and "the truth is always better" or "You'll get into less trouble for telling me the truth then lying and I find out". You say this, but you lie. You can't complain about Dolls being bad role models when really your just as bad. Children learn mostly from thier parents... teach them properally.
Dolls are just dolls, they don't cause bad behaviour... they are TOYS!!! FAKE!!! UNREALISTIC!!! just like a teddy bear, I don't see people complaining about them!
I am a woman, 34 years old, and quite sexy, so I've been told. I recently lost 60 pounds and I have been wondering why men of all races are suddenly finding me so sexy thus my reason for visiting this site. Although I am not in agreement with everything I have read I wanted to thank the author for having the courage to address this topic. I think this site could use a more thorough analysis of what is considered beautiful, feminine and sexy across all ethnic groups because I think, by today's standards, a face that would be considered beautiful would be slightly more ethnic (or exotic) than the examples presented.
Based on my own experience and my own research I would have to say what makes a woman sexy are the following:
1. A feminine yet slightly masculine face- When I was 60 pounds heavier, my face was much more feminine (babyish) and I attracted more blue collar types. My guess is these types of men tend to have more testosterone than average. I wouldn't necessarily consider them the most "masculine" of men because these men tend to be insecure and lack the type of ambition I desire in a mate. These shortcomings are signs of weakness and are not very attractive to me. Now that I have lost the weight my face is more masculine with a more defined jaw line and defined high cheekbones. Now I am attracting men of a certain caliber: self made millionaires, executives, and well paid professionals. I am a professional working woman and this works to my advantage in many situations when I deal with male coworkers and clients. I still have feminine facial features like big almond shaped eyes, full pouty lips, a good upper and lower facial proportion and attractive nose projection. I also have facial symmetry. I find men like to stare at my face, like a baby would, and my belief is that I look like the "average" pretty girl which is the most preferred type of face based on other research I have read. If I look directly at one of these men, I can literally see them start to breathe faster. Some look away quickly but the alpha males always stand erect, squint, and stare in my eyes.
2. Low body fat with a good muscular skeletal base - In my opinion, having a little body fat is a good thing but a woman must have a toned look (created by a strong muscular base) to be considered sexy. Well developed (not overly muscular) calves and thighs are especially sexy to men.
3. Good body proportion with firm breasts of medium to large size- I have literally seen men stare at my face, then my breasts, down to my waist and thighs and then my feet. A lot of men linger on the breasts and start to drool. Ankles are a big turn on for some men for some reason. There is something about where the ankle meets the calf that men like. When I wear pumps, this is an area that men tend to stare at for some reason.
4. Small/average features and bone structure- Men tend to have large heads, hands and feet. I don't think most men find large features especially sexy.
5. Well proportioned hips and rear- A sexy bottom must be perky and full with a good "happy" crease along the bottom of the buttocks. I personally have a hip to waist ratio of about .72 from the front and .65 from the back. I come from a family of woman who have lower ratios than this (small breasts, small ribcages, small waists and big hips) and they look at me incredulously when I tell them that men are literally staring at my bottom these days. Why would men choose to stare at my rear when these much more bottom curvaceous women are standing next to me? I don't know the answer but I am guessing because my bottom is perky and well formed and looks much more youthful because I do not have saddlebags and cellulite.
In my opinion, not having one or more of the criteria on my list is not a deal breaker for most men. Masculine and feminine balance can be achieved with the right make-up and clothing. I suspect as I get older my face will look more masculine and I will be more inclined to play up my feminine features. When I was younger (teens and 20s) I looked more like the feminine ideal as described on this site. I would say almost hyper feminine. To look sexy, I wore make-up to accentuate my cheekbones and wore clothes that gave me an edgier look. Today, I really play up my curves and highlight toned areas like my shoulders, legs, and small waist.
I should note that the type of men who flirts with me now would have never looked my way when I was more feminine looking. Maybe I have lower estrogen these days (due to lower body fat) and that has made me look a little more masculine and sexy. There is something about a woman who is confident, intelligent and knows how to use her womanly charms. My new look adds to my arsenol and I prefer my face and body the way it looks now that I'm older. My features don't scream, "breed me". They scream, "I know what I want and you must please me to keep me". The more confident man finds this incredibly sexy. The less confident man still finds this sexy but would be too intimidated to even approach me. I am ok with this because it makes it easy to weed out men with small penises.
....obviously some of this was written with tongue in cheek so please don't crucify me...lol. I am really not that arrogant or self absorbed but I couldn't resist posting. A good sense of humor is sexy and that is something you can't tell about a woman from looking at a picture.
I think the odd part is that no less then three people have come onto another persons website and insulted them about the beliefs they put there. I mean, yes, this websites viewpoint might not be in line with yours (it isn't in line with mine) but insulting them over that sparks me as slightly childish. Type in EU; and you will see that 1 in 10 of the websites talking about the EU are referring to the idea that the EU is the embodiment of the anti-Christ! If your going to go insulting people in what is essentially their property, at least insult people who are actually trying to be insulting to someone else, rather than someone who is expressing their opinion. Not once has the site or it's owner said that men were queers for not agreeing with him, or insulted your own opinions. And the people arguing... The best way to rid the world of Pseudo science is to ignore it and teach the people you know to think better than that.
"When you are asked to rate the attractiveness of people, the question is how do they look right now. No point in rating their present looks by guessing how they will look in ten years.""
Erik, I would like to know your definition of "present looks". Actually, I was rating their "present attractiveness", ie to me personally, not how I thought other people might rate those girls; because you already indicated how other people would be expected to rate them. So I was commenting on something a little deeper, beyond the obvious.
As I indicated (though somewhat in jest), my perception of how attractive a woman is, to me personally, is definitely affected by my sense of how they might look in the future, when I may still be having to look at them on a daily basis.....
People do take such things into consideration, in real time, when assessing attractiveness, not to mention thinking about physical and genetic compatibility....people are often heard expressing these type of thoughts in candid discussions about physical beauty.
Anyway, thanks for the pics and thought provoking comments. I will bid you adieu now and continue on my way. :>
I've had a German tutor tell me that 'blue-eyed' is a German expression indicating that someone is naive or a little dumb. The blond ditz is a common stereotype in the West (for both genders). Since blue eyes and blond hair tend to go together, perhaps this has something to do with these features being associated with youth, immaturity, etc.?
There is also the likelihood that those who encountered northern Europeans for the first time associated their inability to communicate and/or ignorance of local custom (that may have seemed universal) with their coloring.
Here's another picture of the miss you claimed to look like a transvestite:Tatiana
I have a hard time finding anything masculin-like features in this picture. (In my opinion she looks better here than any photos shown above)
One of the problems is your choice of pictures which doesn't justify how they really look averagely. Angles, light, emotions in a shot does make a difference.
Me, I'm going to stick to enjoying looking at the women I enjoy looking at and not worry about whether some crackpot thinks they're "masculinized". If she looks beautiful then as far as I'm concerned she's perfectly feminine.
p.s. I'm what you hilariously refer to as a "lifetime heterosexual male" too.
So many lovely women! People have different tastes. What is more feminine to one person is less to another. For example this article doesn't even bring up voice. A woman's voice can be a huge turn on or turn off. As well as body scent. You may laugh at that but trust me it makes a huge difference!
Some people just smell naturally more sweeter than others. Some people have to use more perfume and deodorants to mask their natural scent. Whereas others have wonderful scent and don't have to use as much perfume.
As well as makeup. Some people are naturally gorgeous. While, others need much more makeup to look sexy.
Anyways, I love foreign women. Like Asians, Latin Americans, and Europeans.
That includes Russians, French, Scandinavian, Greek, just to name a few.
California girls are great too! Lots of diverse beauty there! ;)
Adris: The information has nothing to do with masculinity-femininity, and is for those who might need it. Sometimes this website will mention surgical solutions to improving looks or functionality, but this doesn’t mean that I am saying that women with the condition addressed must undergo the procedure or that I endorse the procedure.
I love your site and your message, but this... this is a little twisted. How is this congruent with femininity vs. masculinity in women??? Female genitals, regardless of their size, shape, color, etc. are inherently feminine!
By the way, to clear things up:
Adriana Lima definitely has breast implants. Tyra Banks does not.
Hi Erik. I just stumbled across your site and read through most of it. It's interesting, your comparisons between models. I work in the fashion industry doing photo retouching and work with many high fashion models. Just wanted to give you some more info.
A lot of the differences in these models isn't that they are 'more masculine' but in many cases, their low body fat percentage shows their facial bones more.
You are right in that most high-fashion models have long, lean, athletic bodies. I think the reason for this would be that this is the body type that would have the longest legs. A thin model at 5'10" has legs that appear much longer than a prettier, curvier model at 5'5". In recent times, high fashion models are desired to have a strong, imposing, yet blank-slate look, to give an air of purpose and 'too busy for you' which is directly influenced from the paparazzi and celebrity wealth. With this height/thinness/long-legged look comes broader shoulders and ribcages (due to obvious proportions in the human body.)
I do not disagree with your assertion that most high-fashion models are thinner, more shapeless than the modern day woman, but I must argue against your reasoning behind it. For one, like I mentioned above, this is a 'look' in fashion, but high-fashion models do not necessarily represent the ideal aesthetic for the modern woman. They represent a 'style' much like clothing, cars, your hair, and for now, that style says "confidence, power, and fearlessness." It's easy to see that there are many more beautiful women out there.
Most importantly, though, having worked with many creative and art directors, you may be surprised to learn that women are by FAR the most judgmental when it comes to other women. I have retouched several models for different companies and harsh critiques come from other women, not men or gay fashion designers. For some reason, women scrutinize and nitpick at other women to such a degree, and with such 'colorful dialogue' it's almost an obsessive phobia of body fat, curves, and blemishes. Men are much more accepting and lax about the models, whether they are straight or gay men.
I'm not sure what this says about our culture, but it's something that happens quite frequently.
As for Victoria's Secret, you might be surprised to learn that the vast majority of creatives who work there are women, with the occasional straight and gay man thrown in. The designers do not have a say in what models/marketing/advertising strategies are used.
Hope this sheds some light on the whys and whats a little more. Have a good day.
I just re-read my letter and I feel the need to clarify the reason why I referred to American women as neurotic…it came off much more offensive than I intended.
I (and many other people besides myself) see fault in the so-called Protestant work ethic/ Calvinistic values which are at the heart of the American psyche. You have to be this and this and that and achieve A, B, C, and D in order to prove to the world that you are a worthwhile human being before you can believe it yourself. This is backwards.
I also didn’t mean to imply that only women are affected by this. However, psychologists have noted time and again that women tend to turn anger inward and become more SELF-destructive, while men oftentimes project anger outward.
Dear Erik,
I happened to cross paths with your site the other day, and I haven’t quite been able to get it out of my mind since. You bring up many fascinating points, and yet I find that I can’t necessarily agree with you in your take on the fashion world. I apologize if I’ve missed a few things, as I only perused a few pages, but I thought the point of view of a female artist might interest you.
You say that fashion models are relatively masculine in accordance with homosexual aesthetic, and that they create body image issues with everyday women who aspire to forgo the classic hourglass shape. I am not going to dispute this. You also say that their facial structure tends to be more masculine. I can see this as well. However, you are speaking in a strictly biological sense. Fashion shows and fashion photography is not supposed to be about feminine beauty, as you clearly have discovered. It is about art. And art (or many kinds of art) is about exaggeration, not necessarily a desired reality. The beauty of the fashion model is in her unearthliness—unique and eye-catching features together with basic symmetry. These women are ethereal. And I suppose, to fully appreciate their looks, one may require a certain predilection for the arts—a thing which many women and homosexual men tend to have by nature of being less mathematical and more abstract in mind (not that heterosexual men always lack this, but you get what I mean I hope).
The blame in the body image issue, in my mind, should not solely be attributed to the fashion world, but rather in Anglo-Saxon western society (and the United States in particular..) for bringing up such neurotic women. My mother is from Brazil, so I’ve grown up with a much different perspective than many of my fellow American females. It seems that women in this country lack a basic identity—they feel the need to conform to everything that is thrown at them. They think they need to look like a fashionista , be a hardworking career women, and have a whole brood of brats at home. I really believe that those who exclusively put the blame on the fashion industry are ignoring some core problems.
There is also the theory that as societies become more industrialized, and childbearing becomes secondary, the ultra thin frame naturally is more idealized. This is one reason why even in Brazil, the “guitar-shaped” woman is not quite the desired physique it once was. One could put the blame on Giselle, of course. But in reality it is probably a combination of many things.
The main thing I wanted to stress to you is just that as modern people we oftentimes forget that this is a very artificial world. It’s been a long time in the making, but now we’re stuck here and must make the best of it. Human consciousness is much different than it was even in Roman times. The mind is constantly evolving, and with it society and its departure from nature. In a strictly biological sense, your evaluation of beauty is no doubt very correct. But biology is no longer the only factor, is it? We aren’t living in a rain forest. We’re living in a shiny plastic corporate society. Aesthetic taste is no longer determined merely by biology, but imagination, too.
I’m sorry if I was a bit blunt, or if I offended you in any way, but I hope my letter at least caught your attention somewhat.
Regards,
Kelli
I think the girl with the small ribcage actually looks odd. Her torso is too slender and not in proportion, in my view. Also, you seem to confuse feminine with a very round face (Ekaterina). Extremely round and broad faces are typical of Russian and other slavic women, but they are not more feminine than scandinavian women's faces, for example, which tend to be more oval or elongated. On the contrary, the basketball roundness of Ekaterina's face adds heaviness and seems too robust, and that's not in any way feminine. Slavic women often lack refined features, and when they do they are not good examples of feminine women, in my opinion.
I think that people find faces with similar features to themselves most atractive whatever race that person is, beauty is not link to a race or even conventional thinking, I really think it's the person who is beautiful or ugly, whatever there appearence is like.
Roy: The popularity of the Bratz girls is not merely a function of their looks, and they have many of the same physical features as Barbie. So Magro’s argument still applies. The nose bridge doesn’t look very derived, but Barbie’s a doll and there is bound to be some cartoonish elements in her. Look at the overall appearance.
----------------Lying to children----------------
I don’t believe truth is always better and neither would I teach this to children. I believe that truth is preferable to falsehood and that lying is wrong. However, what if there is a scenario where the outcome of telling the truth leads to a wrong that is worse than the wrong of lying? In this case, my attitude is that the lesser of the two wrongs is preferable and hence I don’t believe that the truth is always better.
I also believe that the truth is bound to win in the long run and that the truth shall make us free. And if the truth is bound to win in the long run, then this goal cannot be thwarted by traversing the path of falsehood; nothing prevents one from ultimately making the truth obvious by using falsehood.
In my interactions with children, I have often caught them lying about silly matters, but my response has been “A-ha, caught you lying!” in an amused manner, which has prompted a response along the lines of “bummer!” on the part of children. It is normal for children to lie, just to experiment with what they can get away with, and my kind of attitude will prompt them to come up with more sophisticated lies, i.e., lies that they are more likely to get away with, which will come in handy in the real world when they face a scenario where the wrong of lying is preferable to the wrong resulting from telling the truth. One may argue that my parenting or child mentoring attitude may result in children developing into pathological liars, but I believe that whereas my attitude can help those toward social pathology inclined to get away with lies, it cannot orient one toward social pathology.
Children often live in a fantasy world of super heroes, fairies, gnomes and supernatural forces. They are interested in the language of fantasy, not the far duller reality of adults’ lives. My bringing in gorillas is speaking to them in a language they enjoy even though the context they find very distasteful. Why use a clinical description of how babies come about? When the time comes, they shall learn. They shall know that I lied to them and learn to not trust me blindly. This is important. Children tend to be naïve. They need to learn not to blindly believe everything they are told. They also shouldn’t be skeptical of every claim and hence end up believing hardly anything. They need to develop the ability to make a reasonable guess as to which claim is probably correct, which claim is probably false and which issues are worth spending time on doing an independent investigation because there are too many claims, too much information, but very little time. This ability takes time to develop and they had best start young. What better way to set children on this path than by using non-malicious lies like the gorilla example?
I made no claims about dolls being bad role models. I made a point about inappropriate language and a stupid tool for educating children.
Negative comments about Melisande’s looks
Here are a few things regarding negative comments on Melisande’s looks. This page is a follow-up on a previous article featuring Melisande where Danielle and the woman posting here as z/fucking erik and on the previous page as son of Geats, Gee! and blue fog were the two main critics. Danielle has toned down here, but as I left a comment in the first entry on Melisande, Danielle was not really critiquing the looks of Melisande as much as she was trying to trash my work or express her anger toward me. Still, Danielle’s criticism of Melisande’s looks was never as bad as that of some other women on her part. In the same comment I also explained that z, based on her extensive comments, is most likely a thin woman lacking feminine curves who is disturbed by this site and has a problem with white women. The reader can note how sane this individual by looking at the contents of her numerous comments left at this site. She has pointlessly posted numerous pictures of alleged Asian transvestites (male cross-dressers here) on this page, but an examination of the pictures reveals that a number of them are not transvestites but male-to-female transsexuals that have undergone facial feminization surgery. Z also described Melisande as long faced and Nordic, neither of which she is.
Other than Danielle and z, we have “f” leaving a comment about Melisande having a sore-laden backside, which none of the photos on this page show. There were some spots on her backside in a picture in the first entry on her, and it should be assumed that f’s comment is another example of expressing anger at this site rather than genuine trashing of Melisande’s looks.
Then we have Sarah. She happens to be a thin woman lacking feminine curves and is greatly incensed by this site. Before anyone seriously takes her negative comments against Melisande, one should consider how much credibility she has. She has trashed some of the models I have featured in much worse terms and said that she would rather look like Alessandra Ambrosio. Der Wanderer found this series of images about Alessandra Ambrosio (the top 4 images) and she had to eat her words.
The other individual that had negative comments against Melisande’s looks is Adrian who has described himself as a male homosexual, and based on his many comments is clearly angered by this site. The open-mouth expression is a deliberately adopted expression to look seductive rather than a normal feature in Melisande, and she doesn’t look stupid by a long shot or else I wouldn’t describe her as looking like a scholar/academic in glasses and in the Halloween dress that looks like the dress that people wear during the graduation ceremony.
Keeping these things in mind, Byrne’s comment is mostly inapplicable. It is not true that “Of course it is strange that the ones who seem to come to her aid do so to prove that they would indeed enjoy a little fornication time.” Melisande’s looks are enough for people to come to her “aid” regardless of the fornication issue. For instance, I can judge the attractiveness of men without any desire to fornicate with them.
-----------other issues-----------
Chris: When I say that Melisande looks better than the typical high-fashion model and make the case by showing pictures, this is not exactly a scientific manner of making an argument, but if you are interested in scientific evidence then you will note that Melisande is less masculine than the typical high-fashion model (not a subjective opinion) and hence would generally be more appealing to the majority, given much literature on the majority’s aesthetic preferences, provided that she is not lacking with respect to symmetry, normal physical development and healthy skin compared to the typical high-fashion model (which happens to be the case).
Guy: I got the normal pictures from Melisande.
More on the 2009 Spring NY fashion week
An AP report claims that the 2009 Spring NY fashion week featured more size 2 and 4 models than in the recent past. This may very well be, but I’d like to comment on some excerpts, mostly from Nian Fish.
Hon, a one-time minor change is not proof of progress. Under pressure, designers may add more size 2 and 4 models when they are likely to be especially scrutinized, namely during fashion week, but otherwise, as in magazine photoshoots, it will be business as usual.
Liar, liar, pants on fire!
Okay hon, I grant you this. But what, pray, explains the typical boyish looks of the models? There is surely no shortage of thin girls with girlish looks.
Lack of support on whose part? The queer designers’!
Well, I say I want voluptuous, but nothing happens. The ‘someone’ needs to be a large number of fashion designers, and being of the non-queer variety, they will have to form their own alternative fashion industry.
Raise awareness? You mean that the models don’t know that they are very thin and need to eat in a healthy manner? This clown tries to make it look like it is the fault of the models.
How does one look anorexic without starving?
When I was about 4 or 5 I asked my Mother where I come from she told me the truth...
I think that I'm happy she told me the truth and none of that stork (or for you Gorilla) rubbish. Lying is not the answer, this little boy who you told that too went on thinking things that are not true.
Personally I would have just said, as I have to my younger sister, "ask mum"... it wasn't your right as a babysitter to decided what that little boy thought.
People complain about what children are being taught, maybe children need to be taught the correct thing and not lies. Parents wonder why children don't ask them about the world, well, if you lied to them when they were little then when they get older and find out the truth they are not going to want to come and ask you because they will think you will most likely lie to them like you have in the past.
You teach your children not to lie by telling them that "lying is wrong" and "the truth is always better" or "You'll get into less trouble for telling me the truth then lying and I find out". You say this, but you lie. You can't complain about Dolls being bad role models when really your just as bad. Children learn mostly from thier parents... teach them properally.
Dolls are just dolls, they don't cause bad behaviour... they are TOYS!!! FAKE!!! UNREALISTIC!!! just like a teddy bear, I don't see people complaining about them!
I am a woman, 34 years old, and quite sexy, so I've been told. I recently lost 60 pounds and I have been wondering why men of all races are suddenly finding me so sexy thus my reason for visiting this site. Although I am not in agreement with everything I have read I wanted to thank the author for having the courage to address this topic. I think this site could use a more thorough analysis of what is considered beautiful, feminine and sexy across all ethnic groups because I think, by today's standards, a face that would be considered beautiful would be slightly more ethnic (or exotic) than the examples presented.
Based on my own experience and my own research I would have to say what makes a woman sexy are the following:
1. A feminine yet slightly masculine face- When I was 60 pounds heavier, my face was much more feminine (babyish) and I attracted more blue collar types. My guess is these types of men tend to have more testosterone than average. I wouldn't necessarily consider them the most "masculine" of men because these men tend to be insecure and lack the type of ambition I desire in a mate. These shortcomings are signs of weakness and are not very attractive to me. Now that I have lost the weight my face is more masculine with a more defined jaw line and defined high cheekbones. Now I am attracting men of a certain caliber: self made millionaires, executives, and well paid professionals. I am a professional working woman and this works to my advantage in many situations when I deal with male coworkers and clients. I still have feminine facial features like big almond shaped eyes, full pouty lips, a good upper and lower facial proportion and attractive nose projection. I also have facial symmetry. I find men like to stare at my face, like a baby would, and my belief is that I look like the "average" pretty girl which is the most preferred type of face based on other research I have read. If I look directly at one of these men, I can literally see them start to breathe faster. Some look away quickly but the alpha males always stand erect, squint, and stare in my eyes.
2. Low body fat with a good muscular skeletal base - In my opinion, having a little body fat is a good thing but a woman must have a toned look (created by a strong muscular base) to be considered sexy. Well developed (not overly muscular) calves and thighs are especially sexy to men.
3. Good body proportion with firm breasts of medium to large size- I have literally seen men stare at my face, then my breasts, down to my waist and thighs and then my feet. A lot of men linger on the breasts and start to drool. Ankles are a big turn on for some men for some reason. There is something about where the ankle meets the calf that men like. When I wear pumps, this is an area that men tend to stare at for some reason.
4. Small/average features and bone structure- Men tend to have large heads, hands and feet. I don't think most men find large features especially sexy.
5. Well proportioned hips and rear- A sexy bottom must be perky and full with a good "happy" crease along the bottom of the buttocks. I personally have a hip to waist ratio of about .72 from the front and .65 from the back. I come from a family of woman who have lower ratios than this (small breasts, small ribcages, small waists and big hips) and they look at me incredulously when I tell them that men are literally staring at my bottom these days. Why would men choose to stare at my rear when these much more bottom curvaceous women are standing next to me? I don't know the answer but I am guessing because my bottom is perky and well formed and looks much more youthful because I do not have saddlebags and cellulite.
In my opinion, not having one or more of the criteria on my list is not a deal breaker for most men. Masculine and feminine balance can be achieved with the right make-up and clothing. I suspect as I get older my face will look more masculine and I will be more inclined to play up my feminine features. When I was younger (teens and 20s) I looked more like the feminine ideal as described on this site. I would say almost hyper feminine. To look sexy, I wore make-up to accentuate my cheekbones and wore clothes that gave me an edgier look. Today, I really play up my curves and highlight toned areas like my shoulders, legs, and small waist.
I should note that the type of men who flirts with me now would have never looked my way when I was more feminine looking. Maybe I have lower estrogen these days (due to lower body fat) and that has made me look a little more masculine and sexy. There is something about a woman who is confident, intelligent and knows how to use her womanly charms. My new look adds to my arsenol and I prefer my face and body the way it looks now that I'm older. My features don't scream, "breed me". They scream, "I know what I want and you must please me to keep me". The more confident man finds this incredibly sexy. The less confident man still finds this sexy but would be too intimidated to even approach me. I am ok with this because it makes it easy to weed out men with small penises.
....obviously some of this was written with tongue in cheek so please don't crucify me...lol. I am really not that arrogant or self absorbed but I couldn't resist posting. A good sense of humor is sexy and that is something you can't tell about a woman from looking at a picture.
How can you find normal photos of her? and where from??
I think the odd part is that no less then three people have come onto another persons website and insulted them about the beliefs they put there. I mean, yes, this websites viewpoint might not be in line with yours (it isn't in line with mine) but insulting them over that sparks me as slightly childish. Type in EU; and you will see that 1 in 10 of the websites talking about the EU are referring to the idea that the EU is the embodiment of the anti-Christ! If your going to go insulting people in what is essentially their property, at least insult people who are actually trying to be insulting to someone else, rather than someone who is expressing their opinion. Not once has the site or it's owner said that men were queers for not agreeing with him, or insulted your own opinions. And the people arguing... The best way to rid the world of Pseudo science is to ignore it and teach the people you know to think better than that.
"When you are asked to rate the attractiveness of people, the question is how do they look right now. No point in rating their present looks by guessing how they will look in ten years.""
Erik, I would like to know your definition of "present looks". Actually, I was rating their "present attractiveness", ie to me personally, not how I thought other people might rate those girls; because you already indicated how other people would be expected to rate them. So I was commenting on something a little deeper, beyond the obvious.
As I indicated (though somewhat in jest), my perception of how attractive a woman is, to me personally, is definitely affected by my sense of how they might look in the future, when I may still be having to look at them on a daily basis.....
People do take such things into consideration, in real time, when assessing attractiveness, not to mention thinking about physical and genetic compatibility....people are often heard expressing these type of thoughts in candid discussions about physical beauty.
Anyway, thanks for the pics and thought provoking comments. I will bid you adieu now and continue on my way. :>
I've had a German tutor tell me that 'blue-eyed' is a German expression indicating that someone is naive or a little dumb. The blond ditz is a common stereotype in the West (for both genders). Since blue eyes and blond hair tend to go together, perhaps this has something to do with these features being associated with youth, immaturity, etc.?
There is also the likelihood that those who encountered northern Europeans for the first time associated their inability to communicate and/or ignorance of local custom (that may have seemed universal) with their coloring.
That is not a valid argument, since the physical attractiveness of a male often depends on feminized features, and genetics traits from the mother.
Good argument
please send me hot pics
lol...maddie,
you're a dumb ass...the first girl is not even doutzen kroes...she is the girl from gilmore girls.
Here's another picture of the miss you claimed to look like a transvestite:Tatiana
I have a hard time finding anything masculin-like features in this picture. (In my opinion she looks better here than any photos shown above)
One of the problems is your choice of pictures which doesn't justify how they really look averagely. Angles, light, emotions in a shot does make a difference.
Sorry dude, you've clearly got issues!
Me, I'm going to stick to enjoying looking at the women I enjoy looking at and not worry about whether some crackpot thinks they're "masculinized". If she looks beautiful then as far as I'm concerned she's perfectly feminine.
p.s. I'm what you hilariously refer to as a "lifetime heterosexual male" too.
These women are all sexy and delicious! Too much nitpicking and over analyzing. I want all of these goddesses! hehe
So many lovely women! People have different tastes. What is more feminine to one person is less to another. For example this article doesn't even bring up voice. A woman's voice can be a huge turn on or turn off. As well as body scent. You may laugh at that but trust me it makes a huge difference!
Some people just smell naturally more sweeter than others. Some people have to use more perfume and deodorants to mask their natural scent. Whereas others have wonderful scent and don't have to use as much perfume.
As well as makeup. Some people are naturally gorgeous. While, others need much more makeup to look sexy.
Anyways, I love foreign women. Like Asians, Latin Americans, and Europeans.
That includes Russians, French, Scandinavian, Greek, just to name a few.
California girls are great too! Lots of diverse beauty there! ;)
Pages