Reading through the comments here has very revealing regarding the deplorable state of dishonesty which characterizes PC "feminism" nowadays. The author of the site is perfectly correct in his description of these contestants as overly masculine, as well as unattractive for a normal heterosexual male. It is sad to see that those who attack him attempt to behave like a totalitarian thought police, without providing any meaningful counter-argument to his extensive and well-balanced evidence.
Perhaps it is not difficult to understand why third wave "feminism" would try to brainwash women into adopting such deeply dishonest and self-harming attitudes. After all, it is well-known that the leaders of this form of feminism are predominantly lesbian or over-masculine women.
Hi:
Great site. Here's the thing about masculinized faces and hetero dudes. Masculinized faces are a sign of extra testosterone in a woman, and higher levels of testosterone are medically proven to enhance libido in women (as well as men). So, Masculinized (beautiful) faces in women are attractive to hetero guys because they signal sexual readiness.
Not too hard to understand why "lifetime exclusive heterosexual" men find these women totally hot.
Just .02 from a hetero dude who digs masculinized, beautiful women
The problem with high fashion models is that their inherently slender habitus is accentuated by their height, and this is a visual appearance which the shorter average woman cannot emulate however much she attempts to control her BMI.
As stated before, thinness does not equate to androgyny/masculinity in women. Within reasonable limits, it is healthier to be slender than fat, the medical evidence for this is difficult to refute. I find it extremely narrow-minded on your part to dismiss anything which does not conform to your own overly restrictive, and in many cases scientifically-unfounded, measures of femininity as "homosexual" or abnormal.
Many images here focusing on hips and buttocks in women.
Overall hip circumerence and buttock size are not reliable indicators of physical gender congruity, because it is heavily influenced by the model's BMI. Hip circumference is not only determined by skeletal proportion, but also by soft tissue deposition around the pelvic girdle, which accentuates the gluteal regions externally and stresses skeletal articulation internally.
Most slender girls have an intrinsically gynaecoid pelvic architecture, but have biometrically narrower hips due to their low BMI and relative lack of soft tissue. In contrast, a woman may have an android pelvis that is fortified by a heavy layer of soft tissue, but by your criteria would be more "feminine" than the comparative ectomorphs. This is why internal pelvic measurement (as determined on pelvic examination of perinatal women) is a more reliable predictor of safe vaginal delivery than external hip circumference.
There are visible idiosyncracies of external pelvic shape which serve as superior indicators of underlying morphology, which people may notice with or without conscious acknowledgement. I personally believe that these are significantly more important considerations in the gender discernment process. All things considered, I would also say that the swimsuit models here fall well within normal population variation.
Let me emphasise a very important, but difficult, concept to you, which the majority of heterosexual do not seem to have trouble with. Skinniness in a girl does _not_ equate to "boyishness", assuming the girl is otherwise physiologically normal. The few examples of slender yet feminine girls which you have given are merely BMI-upcategorised variations of the many girls you dismiss as androgynous, even though most of these girls are clearly discernible as feminine on their own merits.
In the many sections where you make direct masculine-feminine comparisons between images, the comparisons are often systematically confounded by such simple factors as posture, camera angle, lighting, makeup and picture cropping. You then proceed to assess these individuals using often speculative and/or overly stringent biometric criteria that are themslves highly subject to some important confounding factors, such as racial diversity, height, weight and physical activity (determining muscle distribution). Even given this data skew, it still takes some stretch of imagination in most cases to correlate the physical appearance of said fashion models to adolescent males.
The weight-dependent markers of femininity which you repeatedly focus on to prove your point (breast, buttock size, pelvic breadth, among others) are still clearly evident in the majority of healthy ectomorphic girls. These markers _cannot_ be treated as independent and linear indicators of virilisation/androgyny, because that is not consistent with what we know of human physiology. Furthermore, there are hundreds of non-weight dependent markers of gender congruity as part of the gender discernment process which you have overlooked.
If part of your argument is that there is something intrinsically feminine about being heavier, I would like to refer you to various resources and studies which suggest otherwise. Sex hormones play a role in macroanatomic fat distribution, but their effects on absolute weight and BMI are nominal. This contrasts with the widely-held misconception that it is physiological for women to be bordering on overweight. The latter is much more likely attributable to the traditionally more sedentary lifestyle of women and peripubertal girls, rather than a manifestation of hormonal anabolism per se.
The majority of healthy ectomorphic females represent a different visual archetype of femininity than the heavier women we have seen in more recent centuries as a result of improved nutrition and an increasingly sedentary lifestyle. I suspect that the standards of masculinity and femininity with which you are judging these girls are inherently skewed. Certainly, your personal selection of "attractive" women would seem to suggest that at least one part of this equation is atypical. They are, by any measure, remarkably homogenous in body archetype, craniofacial proportion and race. I would not be surprised if your own standards of masculinity were concurrently feminised.
My last paragraph was a little unclear on read-through and I can't seem to edit it, so I thought I'd clarify it here in the context of the broader article on "feminine vs masculine".
Chest, backside, physique: The general trend among these women is that they are prepubertal in proportion rather than virilised/masculine. I think this is an important distinction to make given the primarily heterosexual pedomorphic appeal of said fashion models to heterosexual men, rather than the homosexual connotations which arise when such features are described as masculine. I would also argue that these features may be comfortably distinguished from those of normal prepubertal males, though this is a discussion beyond the scope of a comments section.
Shoulders: The models here seem to have shoulder girdle parameters appropriate for their height, but which appear slightly disporportionate due to their relatively narrow hips and low BMI.
Face: I think your picture and model selection is an issue here. Many of the models have distinctly atypical makeup and hairstyling which accentuate their features disproportinately. Some have intrinsically quirky features which can still be considered feminine. Some do appear visibly virilised, though I do not think these specific appearances are prevalent among high fashion models.
Cheekbones: I think it's a generalisation to say that macroanatomic cheekbone position can be used as an indicator of masculinity or femininity, given that there is great variance between and within populations. Moreover, the study models here do not have the thicker, broader, protruding zygomatic arches characteristic of men, but fine, high elevated cheekbones which are a discernibly hyperfeminine archetype.
Jaw structure: This was interesting, but heavily confounded by the fact that the glamour models (having higher BMIs) had more facial padding in the area to round off their features. I would contend that most of the study models you've chosen fall comfortably within feminine parameters if compared to women of similar BMI.
Nasoglabellar region: I would agree that some of the quirkier fashion models definitely have a slightly masculinised configuration (most notably that of Stella Tennant), but that the majority fall within feminine parameters if racial idiosyncracies are factored in. I think your selection of comparison glamour models is also slightly atypical in that they have notably undefined features in this department, but that may just be me.
"Taller women invariably have stronger brow ridges and more masculine-patterned hairlines."
I find this observation odd, given that most would argue that tall supermodels have biometrically hyperfeminine or underaged facial and cranial features, and no suggestion at all of masculine pattern hair in any form. I can only speculate that you are seeing what you want to see in those pictures to support your earlier statement; in which case I might be able to refer you to a pathology database which illustrates the relatively grisly consequences of even the slightest androgen excess in women.
"They are tall (a genetically-mediated trait that is exclusively caused by high androgen levels during puberty!)"
Height is extremely polyfactorial, that is to say, many genetic and environmental determinants influence human height. According to what data we have, androgenisation is by far the exception rather than the rule in tall women; the primary determinants for height being nutrition, and multiple hereditary factors affecting long bone development, which are nothing to do with androgen metabolism.
For androgen excess to influence height significantly enough, there would be other marked signs of virilisation which would probably render the individual less viable for modeling. On a related point, I would strongly disagree with the author's assertion (in his other article) that high fashion models' skeletal proportions are intrinsically masculine. The low pelvic/shoulder width ratio observed in such individuals is not due to androgen excess (which would result in broader, heavier shoulders, expanded upper thoracic dimensions and distinctive craniofacial changes, among other visible changes) but due to skeletal underdevelopment in puberty resulting in narrow hips and other prepubertal skeletal proportions. The latter may be related to a delayed/diminished pubertal spike, or some other height-related idiosyncracy of their biophysiology.
People got different standard, I find kate moss is skinny eventhrought I like her shape and don't mind her skinny shape. some of my friend ( european) find kate moss has good shape for him and not skinny.
I also know some guy that his girlfriend is skinny and weight only 99-100 IBS, tall 168 cm., almost no breasts. he finds his girlfriend has got the good hourglass shape and fatter than some women that most of people find she has average shape. I think this depending on the different openions. such as, if you like this woman so you find she has got the good shape eventhrought everyone find she is too skinny.
in south east asia, many of good shape women have got the weight around 80-107 IBS. the tallness is 165-177 cm. that's too small and skinny for western people.
I like art and I do not find anything wrong with the skinny fashion models and I think they encourage the mystery, dreamlike and charming cloths they wearing on the catwalk. I know that they are too skinny but they look beautiful and charmy like a women in arthur rackham fairy's tale illustration. and I think many of women are delicate than the men so they wanted to have their shape like women that come out from fairy tales.
The point is the women themseleves are also find skinny dreamlike fashion cloths are beautiful and many of average and over weight shape women keep trying to lose their weight to get themselves look like the illustrator models on the fashion designer's paper.
if what the fashion models have designed are not good in the eyes of women(customer), then the skinny's train won't be poppular that much like this? I think the gay fashion designers are delicate enough to know women mind, what are the styles women prefer? and that's the reason why the skinny fashion models are the ideal of many women around the world. I accept that's not all women find skinny to be pretty but I think the group that find skinny to be pretty are much more than the group that like chubby or average shape. this due to the body that lesser curvaceous and fat are look like a child. most of the women do not want men to think of them as vulgar pornstars.
Emma Twigg has got very board shoulders eventheought her face is feminine. kim k. probably looks big because of her tanned firm skin but she got small shoulders, not very much tall, small handwrist -without the big breasts and butt she was a slender woman.
Ella Tse: If you have at least a C-cup, then your measurements seem to be those of a voluptuous woman that could be anywhere in the neighborhood of average with respect to masculinity-femininity. Whether this means on the masculine side or on the feminine side of average, I can't tell from the measurements. I will come back here and post some pictures of Emma Twigg who has an hourglass figure but it is difficult to describe her as feminine given her muscular and skeletal development. This will be a good example of why it is not easy to judge masculinity-femininity from a handful of crude measurements. Broad shoulders by themselves need not imply masculinization, which is assessed from overall looks.
Emily: I am glad that the masculinization of fashion models is not news to you, but it is to some people.
Don't blame Tyra Banks for eliminating women whom the majority would consider more attractive. She is not the sole judge, and any judgment on her part takes into account the looks that will get a woman booked by fashion designers. So the designers are ultimately to blame for the eliminations though they will sometimes let rank well some women they find less appealing (these women have better public appeal) because the show is marketed to the general public.
d: Read carefully. It isn't that women's appeal diminishes as they get closer to their periods because the only study addressing normal gait suggests that it is rated more attractive around the periods or when the women will not conceive.
I don't think they employed women with PMS/problematic menstrual cycles. You can read the studies for the details (pdfs provided for them all).
Whatever the motive for rape, erection is not under voluntary control and hence the rapist must be sexually aroused by the potential victim. If the rapist can get away with rape, then rape allows him to potentially impregnate a woman that he could not court. Hence, there is something to the notion that women will likely not normally advertise their fecundity to potential rapists.
Alex: You must have blemish-free skin and a great face shape if even a professional makeup artist cannot improve your face with makeup. Please email me your pictures.
d: In my reply to Kim, I specifically said that I have never heard of Indians/Middle Easterners talk of Northern Europeans as stupid. I know that many among them have some negative views of Northern Europeans.
Well, Erik, just because you've never heard of Indians and/or Middle Easterns talk negatively about Northern Euporeans, doesn't mean it hasn't happen. No group of people is safe from being stereotyped or mocked, including Northern Europeans. It'd be very hard to cite something like this. I know in the United States, there is a running joke that white women with blonde hair are considered ditzy/stupid. Of course, not all of them are stupid.
Being pale is not the norm.
Back to the topic, Tyra Banks was teased by her peers when she was younger. Alek Wek was and still is getting flack from the public about her appearance.
Is it possible that some women actually look worse after applying makeup? I think I look worse, even when it is professionally applied by a good makeup artist. It just seems to look fake and unnatural no matter what, and cover up any good features, without masking any of the bad ones. So therefore, I have given up on makeup and never wear it when I go out.
Maybe one of the reasons why women's appeal decrease as they get closer to menstruation is that menstruation sucks. Although there are some women who do not feel a thing during menstruation, for others, it's really very painful. So painful, some women opt to go on birth control. There are other symptoms to menstruation that could cause women's appeal to decrease, such as feeling bloated, fatigue, and more upset than usual. Some women also suffer from PMS. Did all of the studies that you listed control for PMS? Were the subjects menstruating pain free women or was there a mix?
And the rapist thing. Rapists are not concern with women's fertility. Rapists rape for control and/or for some other twisted reason.
Does Amy from 'Spunky Angels' fit your requirements of femininity? Where would she stand on the masculine-feminine scale? IMO she seems to look better overall and appears quite feminine, how come you have not added her to the attractive women section? IMO she looks better than most of the women you have pitched as 'attractive' in the attractive women section.
I actually do research in this field an as such should spend my time on people interested in data and hypothesis testing, and not personal opinion and diatribe.
If Erik is wrong, I would very much like to see you refute him so that I and others are not lead astray by him. However, I haven't seen anything particularly convincing in your arguments so far.
These women belong in a horror show, not in a beauty contest.
Reading through the comments here has very revealing regarding the deplorable state of dishonesty which characterizes PC "feminism" nowadays. The author of the site is perfectly correct in his description of these contestants as overly masculine, as well as unattractive for a normal heterosexual male. It is sad to see that those who attack him attempt to behave like a totalitarian thought police, without providing any meaningful counter-argument to his extensive and well-balanced evidence.
Perhaps it is not difficult to understand why third wave "feminism" would try to brainwash women into adopting such deeply dishonest and self-harming attitudes. After all, it is well-known that the leaders of this form of feminism are predominantly lesbian or over-masculine women.
Menustration can affect women's normal gait.
Hi:
Great site. Here's the thing about masculinized faces and hetero dudes. Masculinized faces are a sign of extra testosterone in a woman, and higher levels of testosterone are medically proven to enhance libido in women (as well as men). So, Masculinized (beautiful) faces in women are attractive to hetero guys because they signal sexual readiness.
Not too hard to understand why "lifetime exclusive heterosexual" men find these women totally hot.
Just .02 from a hetero dude who digs masculinized, beautiful women
The problem with high fashion models is that their inherently slender habitus is accentuated by their height, and this is a visual appearance which the shorter average woman cannot emulate however much she attempts to control her BMI.
As stated before, thinness does not equate to androgyny/masculinity in women. Within reasonable limits, it is healthier to be slender than fat, the medical evidence for this is difficult to refute. I find it extremely narrow-minded on your part to dismiss anything which does not conform to your own overly restrictive, and in many cases scientifically-unfounded, measures of femininity as "homosexual" or abnormal.
Many images here focusing on hips and buttocks in women.
Overall hip circumerence and buttock size are not reliable indicators of physical gender congruity, because it is heavily influenced by the model's BMI. Hip circumference is not only determined by skeletal proportion, but also by soft tissue deposition around the pelvic girdle, which accentuates the gluteal regions externally and stresses skeletal articulation internally.
Most slender girls have an intrinsically gynaecoid pelvic architecture, but have biometrically narrower hips due to their low BMI and relative lack of soft tissue. In contrast, a woman may have an android pelvis that is fortified by a heavy layer of soft tissue, but by your criteria would be more "feminine" than the comparative ectomorphs. This is why internal pelvic measurement (as determined on pelvic examination of perinatal women) is a more reliable predictor of safe vaginal delivery than external hip circumference.
There are visible idiosyncracies of external pelvic shape which serve as superior indicators of underlying morphology, which people may notice with or without conscious acknowledgement. I personally believe that these are significantly more important considerations in the gender discernment process. All things considered, I would also say that the swimsuit models here fall well within normal population variation.
Let me emphasise a very important, but difficult, concept to you, which the majority of heterosexual do not seem to have trouble with. Skinniness in a girl does _not_ equate to "boyishness", assuming the girl is otherwise physiologically normal. The few examples of slender yet feminine girls which you have given are merely BMI-upcategorised variations of the many girls you dismiss as androgynous, even though most of these girls are clearly discernible as feminine on their own merits.
In the many sections where you make direct masculine-feminine comparisons between images, the comparisons are often systematically confounded by such simple factors as posture, camera angle, lighting, makeup and picture cropping. You then proceed to assess these individuals using often speculative and/or overly stringent biometric criteria that are themslves highly subject to some important confounding factors, such as racial diversity, height, weight and physical activity (determining muscle distribution). Even given this data skew, it still takes some stretch of imagination in most cases to correlate the physical appearance of said fashion models to adolescent males.
The weight-dependent markers of femininity which you repeatedly focus on to prove your point (breast, buttock size, pelvic breadth, among others) are still clearly evident in the majority of healthy ectomorphic girls. These markers _cannot_ be treated as independent and linear indicators of virilisation/androgyny, because that is not consistent with what we know of human physiology. Furthermore, there are hundreds of non-weight dependent markers of gender congruity as part of the gender discernment process which you have overlooked.
If part of your argument is that there is something intrinsically feminine about being heavier, I would like to refer you to various resources and studies which suggest otherwise. Sex hormones play a role in macroanatomic fat distribution, but their effects on absolute weight and BMI are nominal. This contrasts with the widely-held misconception that it is physiological for women to be bordering on overweight. The latter is much more likely attributable to the traditionally more sedentary lifestyle of women and peripubertal girls, rather than a manifestation of hormonal anabolism per se.
The majority of healthy ectomorphic females represent a different visual archetype of femininity than the heavier women we have seen in more recent centuries as a result of improved nutrition and an increasingly sedentary lifestyle. I suspect that the standards of masculinity and femininity with which you are judging these girls are inherently skewed. Certainly, your personal selection of "attractive" women would seem to suggest that at least one part of this equation is atypical. They are, by any measure, remarkably homogenous in body archetype, craniofacial proportion and race. I would not be surprised if your own standards of masculinity were concurrently feminised.
My last paragraph was a little unclear on read-through and I can't seem to edit it, so I thought I'd clarify it here in the context of the broader article on "feminine vs masculine".
Chest, backside, physique: The general trend among these women is that they are prepubertal in proportion rather than virilised/masculine. I think this is an important distinction to make given the primarily heterosexual pedomorphic appeal of said fashion models to heterosexual men, rather than the homosexual connotations which arise when such features are described as masculine. I would also argue that these features may be comfortably distinguished from those of normal prepubertal males, though this is a discussion beyond the scope of a comments section.
Shoulders: The models here seem to have shoulder girdle parameters appropriate for their height, but which appear slightly disporportionate due to their relatively narrow hips and low BMI.
Face: I think your picture and model selection is an issue here. Many of the models have distinctly atypical makeup and hairstyling which accentuate their features disproportinately. Some have intrinsically quirky features which can still be considered feminine. Some do appear visibly virilised, though I do not think these specific appearances are prevalent among high fashion models.
Cheekbones: I think it's a generalisation to say that macroanatomic cheekbone position can be used as an indicator of masculinity or femininity, given that there is great variance between and within populations. Moreover, the study models here do not have the thicker, broader, protruding zygomatic arches characteristic of men, but fine, high elevated cheekbones which are a discernibly hyperfeminine archetype.
Jaw structure: This was interesting, but heavily confounded by the fact that the glamour models (having higher BMIs) had more facial padding in the area to round off their features. I would contend that most of the study models you've chosen fall comfortably within feminine parameters if compared to women of similar BMI.
Nasoglabellar region: I would agree that some of the quirkier fashion models definitely have a slightly masculinised configuration (most notably that of Stella Tennant), but that the majority fall within feminine parameters if racial idiosyncracies are factored in. I think your selection of comparison glamour models is also slightly atypical in that they have notably undefined features in this department, but that may just be me.
Kimberly:
"Taller women invariably have stronger brow ridges and more masculine-patterned hairlines."
I find this observation odd, given that most would argue that tall supermodels have biometrically hyperfeminine or underaged facial and cranial features, and no suggestion at all of masculine pattern hair in any form. I can only speculate that you are seeing what you want to see in those pictures to support your earlier statement; in which case I might be able to refer you to a pathology database which illustrates the relatively grisly consequences of even the slightest androgen excess in women.
"They are tall (a genetically-mediated trait that is exclusively caused by high androgen levels during puberty!)"
Height is extremely polyfactorial, that is to say, many genetic and environmental determinants influence human height. According to what data we have, androgenisation is by far the exception rather than the rule in tall women; the primary determinants for height being nutrition, and multiple hereditary factors affecting long bone development, which are nothing to do with androgen metabolism.
For androgen excess to influence height significantly enough, there would be other marked signs of virilisation which would probably render the individual less viable for modeling. On a related point, I would strongly disagree with the author's assertion (in his other article) that high fashion models' skeletal proportions are intrinsically masculine. The low pelvic/shoulder width ratio observed in such individuals is not due to androgen excess (which would result in broader, heavier shoulders, expanded upper thoracic dimensions and distinctive craniofacial changes, among other visible changes) but due to skeletal underdevelopment in puberty resulting in narrow hips and other prepubertal skeletal proportions. The latter may be related to a delayed/diminished pubertal spike, or some other height-related idiosyncracy of their biophysiology.
People got different standard, I find kate moss is skinny eventhrought I like her shape and don't mind her skinny shape. some of my friend ( european) find kate moss has good shape for him and not skinny.
I also know some guy that his girlfriend is skinny and weight only 99-100 IBS, tall 168 cm., almost no breasts. he finds his girlfriend has got the good hourglass shape and fatter than some women that most of people find she has average shape. I think this depending on the different openions. such as, if you like this woman so you find she has got the good shape eventhrought everyone find she is too skinny.
in south east asia, many of good shape women have got the weight around 80-107 IBS. the tallness is 165-177 cm. that's too small and skinny for western people.
I like art and I do not find anything wrong with the skinny fashion models and I think they encourage the mystery, dreamlike and charming cloths they wearing on the catwalk. I know that they are too skinny but they look beautiful and charmy like a women in arthur rackham fairy's tale illustration. and I think many of women are delicate than the men so they wanted to have their shape like women that come out from fairy tales.
The point is the women themseleves are also find skinny dreamlike fashion cloths are beautiful and many of average and over weight shape women keep trying to lose their weight to get themselves look like the illustrator models on the fashion designer's paper.
if what the fashion models have designed are not good in the eyes of women(customer), then the skinny's train won't be poppular that much like this? I think the gay fashion designers are delicate enough to know women mind, what are the styles women prefer? and that's the reason why the skinny fashion models are the ideal of many women around the world. I accept that's not all women find skinny to be pretty but I think the group that find skinny to be pretty are much more than the group that like chubby or average shape. this due to the body that lesser curvaceous and fat are look like a child. most of the women do not want men to think of them as vulgar pornstars.
Emma Twigg has got very board shoulders eventheought her face is feminine. kim k. probably looks big because of her tanned firm skin but she got small shoulders, not very much tall, small handwrist -without the big breasts and butt she was a slender woman.
Ella Tse: If you have at least a C-cup, then your measurements seem to be those of a voluptuous woman that could be anywhere in the neighborhood of average with respect to masculinity-femininity. Whether this means on the masculine side or on the feminine side of average, I can't tell from the measurements. I will come back here and post some pictures of Emma Twigg who has an hourglass figure but it is difficult to describe her as feminine given her muscular and skeletal development. This will be a good example of why it is not easy to judge masculinity-femininity from a handful of crude measurements. Broad shoulders by themselves need not imply masculinization, which is assessed from overall looks.
Emily: I am glad that the masculinization of fashion models is not news to you, but it is to some people.
Don't blame Tyra Banks for eliminating women whom the majority would consider more attractive. She is not the sole judge, and any judgment on her part takes into account the looks that will get a woman booked by fashion designers. So the designers are ultimately to blame for the eliminations though they will sometimes let rank well some women they find less appealing (these women have better public appeal) because the show is marketed to the general public.
Alex: Amy is feminine and attractive. I will add her to the attractive women section at some point; just been too busy to be working on it.
d: Read carefully. It isn't that women's appeal diminishes as they get closer to their periods because the only study addressing normal gait suggests that it is rated more attractive around the periods or when the women will not conceive.
I don't think they employed women with PMS/problematic menstrual cycles. You can read the studies for the details (pdfs provided for them all).
Whatever the motive for rape, erection is not under voluntary control and hence the rapist must be sexually aroused by the potential victim. If the rapist can get away with rape, then rape allows him to potentially impregnate a woman that he could not court. Hence, there is something to the notion that women will likely not normally advertise their fecundity to potential rapists.
Alex: You must have blemish-free skin and a great face shape if even a professional makeup artist cannot improve your face with makeup. Please email me your pictures.
d: In my reply to Kim, I specifically said that I have never heard of Indians/Middle Easterners talk of Northern Europeans as stupid. I know that many among them have some negative views of Northern Europeans.
omg! i am dissgusted on the age you lot are 12 yrs old omg thats soo horrible your mother should be ashamed
Well, Erik, just because you've never heard of Indians and/or Middle Easterns talk negatively about Northern Euporeans, doesn't mean it hasn't happen. No group of people is safe from being stereotyped or mocked, including Northern Europeans. It'd be very hard to cite something like this. I know in the United States, there is a running joke that white women with blonde hair are considered ditzy/stupid. Of course, not all of them are stupid.
Being pale is not the norm.
Back to the topic, Tyra Banks was teased by her peers when she was younger. Alek Wek was and still is getting flack from the public about her appearance.
Is it possible that some women actually look worse after applying makeup? I think I look worse, even when it is professionally applied by a good makeup artist. It just seems to look fake and unnatural no matter what, and cover up any good features, without masking any of the bad ones. So therefore, I have given up on makeup and never wear it when I go out.
Maybe one of the reasons why women's appeal decrease as they get closer to menstruation is that menstruation sucks. Although there are some women who do not feel a thing during menstruation, for others, it's really very painful. So painful, some women opt to go on birth control. There are other symptoms to menstruation that could cause women's appeal to decrease, such as feeling bloated, fatigue, and more upset than usual. Some women also suffer from PMS. Did all of the studies that you listed control for PMS? Were the subjects menstruating pain free women or was there a mix?
And the rapist thing. Rapists are not concern with women's fertility. Rapists rape for control and/or for some other twisted reason.
Does Amy from 'Spunky Angels' fit your requirements of femininity? Where would she stand on the masculine-feminine scale? IMO she seems to look better overall and appears quite feminine, how come you have not added her to the attractive women section? IMO she looks better than most of the women you have pitched as 'attractive' in the attractive women section.
If Erik is wrong, I would very much like to see you refute him so that I and others are not lead astray by him. However, I haven't seen anything particularly convincing in your arguments so far.
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