and in your article "what they are all about?" or smth like that , you compared model girls faces with boy faces. I would say that not the girl models look unfeminine but the boys look too feminine. didn't you know that high cheeckbones , voluptious lips , small , narrow nose , big , childish and sparkling eyes , and shapely eyebrows are a sign of high estrogen level in woman's body.
that was a super stupid article. it just proved nothing but the boys you took have a little too much of estrogen ;D
i just want to say a few words: keep your opinion for yourself.
most of the men would never say that karolina kurkova is unnatractive or non-feminine - i agree she doesn't have dd size breasts , but most of the woman don't. In my opinion fat woman can never be called feminine just because they have more fat than slim ones. Curvy woman are those who have noticable lines ( about 90 -60- 90 is definetely perfect ). Those models or porn stars i don't know , who you compare to karolina are pretty slim , but thay do look vulgar not like karolina.
I strongly agree with harper's opinion. You don't have any surveys what man trully like - go to the bastardly.com and you'll see how man adores those VS bodies. there are no evidences that VS women aren't attractive or look tran it's just your opinion and you can compare those girls with whatever you like but again it will be just your taste in beauty with no proves , what is more feminine.
PS. Leatitia casta was always one of my favourites ;) She is really very feminine.
Rhytides (wrinkles) and fractional photothermolysis
The latest on using lasers to tackle wrinkles and other skin blemishes.
Quote:
Sukal, S. A., and Geronemus, R. G., Fractional photothermolysis, J Drugs Dermatol, 7, 118 (2008).
Foster, K. W., Kouba, D. J., Fincher, E. E., Glicksman, Z. S., Hayes, J., Valerie, F., Fincher, H. H., and Moy, R. L., Early improvement in rhytides and skin laxity following treatment with a combination fractional laser emitting two wavelengths sequentially, J Drugs Dermatol, 7, 108 (2008).
If you do research in this field, then I look forward to your tearing apart my arguments. Criticism from academics is always welcome, and yours will hopefully be substantiated. You will not find people more interested in data and hypothesis testing than me, and I am your man if you are looking for pictures and computer-generated imagery to do research on female attractiveness.
If I have a spare hour or so I may come back at some point and tear apart this set of straw man arguments salted with research from an assortment of second tier journals, but at the moment I'm tired and busy.
So I will most likely allow you to wallow in your agressive ignorance.
Singh has hardly been refuted. What you have done is called "cherry picking" in the scientific community. You cite a handful of obscure publications that support your view-point.
You want to put forward some personal agenda which aparently has something to do with gay men in the fashion industry, while at the same time inflate your personal preference to a generalizable ideal. It's patently nonsense, but if thinking this keeps you warm at night then I won't tear away your security blanket.
I actually do research in this field an as such should spend my time on people interested in data and hypothesis testing, and not personal opinion and diatribe.
So I am conflating several points? You cited a dictionary definition of masculine and feminine. Has it not occurred to you that this website is concerned with anatomical variation and the corresponding understanding has to be in terms of shape (see example1, example2)? Also, whereas women are typically feminine compared to men, I am addressing variation within women. In other words, some women are on the masculine side of average among women and others on the feminine side of average. Whereas Rebecca Romijn would be cross-culturally recognized as a woman without the need to examine her genitals or breasts, and is clearly feminine compared to the typical man, she is overall on the masculine side of average among women of her ethnic group, notwithstanding her reported WHR being slightly below average and hence on the feminine side of average. Rebecca Romijn looks like a female, but not a feminine one among women.
Other things being left intact, even if Rebecca Romijn’s WHR were to increase to 0.9, she would still be cross-culturally recognized as a woman. So you are unnecessarily bringing in the recognition of femaleness issue, which is a non-issue to start with.
Quote:
You wrote – As your argument rests on her being not feminine but masculine, I presented four (admittedly older but to date accepted) studies on the cross-cultural relevance of waist to hip to refute your statement that she is "masculine".
To date accepted? Singh’s ode to a 0.7 WHR has been refuted. Better methodology has revealed an optimum preference for lower WHRs among European populations and cross-cultural optimums clearly different from 0.7. And you did not refute the masculinization part. Reported WHR (and also front view WHR, as assessed in numerous studies) is not strongly correlated with other measures of physical femininity among women. Hence, an overall more masculine woman can easily have a lower WHR than an overall more feminine woman. You have also focused on reported WHR, which captures far less information about Rebecca Romijn’s look than the numerous pictures that I have cited. The woman is clearly on the masculine side of average among women of her ethnic group.
In response to my asking you to look at her overall looks, you wrote –
Quote:
While you can certainly gather data from mens' faces and womens' faces, as well as measurements from other parts of their bodies, all that you end up doing is defining means and variances for those characteristics within populations. There are a number of incongruous results when you analyze the data across populations.
I have long cited geometric morphometrics within this site, and it goes far beyond capturing mere means and variances; it describes shape variation as shown in the two linked examples above. Ethnic issues are irrelevant to this topic.
Quote:
You wrote – Any judgment or assessment of attractiveness is highly suspect and to date few if any reputable studies exist that espouse a cross-cultural preference for any body measurement.
A strong preference for above average physical femininity in women has been repeatedly demonstrated in many studies, including cross-cultural samples, and is surely not a highly suspect find. Studies that have documented this find have shown it for variation within women, which is what this site is concerned with. Not all of these studies are limited to young adult judges. Besides, an aesthetic preference need not be cross-culturally generalizable for it be of any significance.
Quote:
You wrote – The fact that it [WHR] explains very little of the preference for a particular individual is due to a number of factors but the most compelling of them is that it is a signal that identifies an individual as a reproductively active female human. This as I explained earlier is a recognition signal.
Recognition signal? The typical young adult woman with a WHR of 0.8 – 0.9 will conceive and give birth, but will, on average, have lower fecundity and fertility than young adult women with a WHR of 0.6 – 0.7. The recognition issue is not about whether the woman is “reproductively active” but about whether the woman has high reproductive potential. The reason why WHR by itself is poorly correlated with overall attractiveness has to do with WHR capturing little of the information regarding a woman’s overall looks and being weakly-to-moderately correlated with miscellaneous measures of physical femininity.
My question – “How can you fail to see masculinization?” – is not an appeal to my taste. Physical masculinization is an objective assessment. The question “How can you fail to see her unattractiveness?” would be an appeal to my subjective preferences.
As is common in people who don't understand the fields of Behavioral Ecology, Sexual Selection and Evolutionary Psychology, you are conflating several points in your argument. The central one is confusing preference with recognition.
From the Merriam and Webster dictionary:
Masculine
Pronunciation:
\'mas-ky?-l?n\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Middle English masculin, from Latin masculinus, from masculus, noun, male, diminutive of mas male
Date:
14th century
1 a: male b: having qualities appropriate to or usually associated with a man
Saying someone is masculine means that they are recognized as male, not that they match some Platonic ideal of male beauty. The same may be said of feminine with regards to female.
As your argument rests on her being not feminine but masculine, I presented four (admittedly older but to date accepted) studies on the cross-cultural relevance of waist to hip to refute your statement that she is "masculine".
"So pointing out a reported WHR of 0.7 in fashion models to argue that they are appealing to the general population is useless."
So in response to your above statements, we are not talking about appealing (preference) we are discussing masculine versus feminine (recognition). As Miss Romijn's waist to hip ratio is an almost perfect 0.69 she would be recognized as feminine, or female, in every culture on the Earth.
"Look at Rebecca Romijn overall."
Here you commit another classic error, stepping into the far muddier waters of masculine versus feminine faces and body measures. While you can certainly gather data from mens' faces and womens' faces, as well as measurements from other parts of their bodies, all that you end up doing is defining means and variances for those characteristics within populations. There are a number of incongruous results when you analyze the data across populations. Nose width between European and sub-saharan African populations and leg to body ratios between European and Asian populations spring to mind.
This is probably what you are thinking about as it tends to be the data presented in the majority of the publications you cite on this website. These tests are almost always done by taking measurements of faces from various populations and then asking undergraduate students in the United States to rank or compare their attractiveness of original faces or composite faces generated using various computer programs. While this does say something about the preferences of 18 to 21 year old young adults from various cities in the United States during the year that the test was carried out, it says surprisingly little that is generalizable about preferences overall or between various cultures. If the tests were done in a year the Miss Romijn had a big movie out you might very well she her face being preferred by more students than you would expect.
If you look at European means and variances for any of these facial or body measurements, I am sure Miss Romijn's falls well withing the spread of data points for women, and hence she is certainly feminine.
Any judgment or assessment of attractiveness is highly suspect and to date few if any reputable studies exist that espouse a cross-cultural preference for any body measurement. This is why the waist hip ratio data is trotted out so much. The fact that it explains very little of the preference for a particular individual is due to a number of factors but the most compelling of them is that it is a signal that identifies an individual as a reproductively active female human. This as I explained earlier is a recognition signal.
"How can you fail to see masculinization?"
Ah and now the final gross error I will address. "I see it don't you?" A direct appeal to individual taste. Whatever I think when I look at Miss Romijn means nothing. It is purely subjective. The same can be said about your opinion. In science "Eine mal ist kien mal", and the opinion of a single individual is anecdote not data. Your eye is of course the arbiter of your own aesthetic, but don't ever confuse this with any objective reality.
You try very hard on this website to convince yourself and others that your views are generalizable, but, most simply, they are not. While your opinion regarding what is masculine or feminine may correlate highly with a given data set, that does not lend it any relevance across cultural lines and lends it only weak support within a given culture. Always remember correlation is not causation and just because you think it it true does not mean it is. I have been proven wrong more often than right over the course of my 15 years in the field of Behavioral Ecology. So until you bring some real data to bear, I would tread lightly.
Also I want to add more pictures of the asian male transvestites that look very close to northeast asian women. I have never seen the caucasian male transvestites look like caucasian women yet. this probably because the northeast asian women have facial's features closing to the males. also I have seen the south east asian male transvestite but they also do not look like south east asian women, but look like chinese or korean. one of my swedish friend had been visited thailand and watched the gay performance in some theater two years ago. lately, everytime when he walked pass the far east asian girl with the narrow face, caucasian nose, big eyes of eyeliner and mascara with epicanthic fold and super white skin, then he makes disgusting face and say " that girl looks like male transvestite, she is ugly."
More pictures of male transvestite in asia. ( the face looks very much like Alien, very flat, plastic beauty, unnatuaral and only the three things on the face that look promenant are the eyes, nose and lips.)
When I see Melisande I think of this asian male transvestites.
Melisande has her face like a male. I hate the woman with the skinny long face and small eyes, it's look like male. the long face is fine but not the skinny flat face.
These pictures below are not young women but male tranvestite. he also crowed miss gay 2004, many people find he looks like women but I don't think he is and he looks ugly for me. his face is flat without cheeks, the arms also too long like melisande. the original women have round cheeks, and big round eyes, small nose unlike the male transvestites with measurable oval face from plastic sugery.
and now take a look at the original feminine Finlandic woman. I never seen the male with the same face's shape like her. small nose, projection forhead and round cheeks like the baby.
Do you remenber Paris in 2006 we met and drunk rhum??? The black devil cigarets??? How are u since this summer in europe!
I'm here for tell everybody: MELISANDE IS A REAL BIG GIRL!!!!!
and spended time in her company is very fine,she's very feminine in her way of life and she how to enjoy! I LOVE YOU GIRL NEVER FORGET YOU
if u want contact me u got my email
CIAO..
I bought the treatments online which included the solution and the needles as well as the numbing cream. I have watched and read the information online and even saw people having it done on youtube.com I must admit, the bruising is what I am a little scared of. But the information that I have read, everyone is pleased with the results. Is there or does anybody know of someone that has actually done the at home injection procedure? thanks
Dermabrasion is a skin resurfacing procedure that may be used by itself or in combination with another treatment to treat acne scars, rhinophyma (large, bulbous, reddish appearance of nose, commonly due to rosacea), scars from various injuries, unwanted tattoos and some other skin conditions. Here is the latest on this procedure.
Benefits of combining antiaging creams/lotions with aesthetic procedures involving botulinum toxin, chemical peels, dermabrasion (mechanically abrasive treatment of skin), skin fillers or lasers
Quote:
Abstract – The dermatologist has a variety of tools for improving the appearance of aging skin. These include injectable botulinum toxins and dermal fillers, laser treatments, chemical peels, and various topical agents, including cosmeceuticals. A combined approach using more than one facial rejuvenation tool is considered ideal for many patients, as it targets the various areas of the face and numerous dynamic and static changes associated with aging. A topical cosmeceutical regimen, such as one containing tretinoin and hydroquinone, can enhance the effects of facial rejuvenation procedures and encourage patients to adopt a daily cleansing and rejuvenation regimen that they can continue after the procedure to help maintain the aesthetic effects.
Revised argument about ‘leg-length to height’ ratio and attractiveness
There has been a debate above about whether women or men have relatively longer legs. I should have thought more about this issue before posting. Aram mentioned women needing extra torso length/space for pregnancy. This sounds reasonable, and it has been shown that women’s attractiveness increases with an elongated abdominal region, but the rib cage of women is expected to be relatively smaller (including vertically shorter). So one doesn’t expect the entire torso of women to be relatively longer than in men.
Peter mentioned that growth is estrogen fueled. Actually, there are many growth factors (growth hormone, testosterone, etc.), but the estrogen estradiol has a much more powerful effect on the growth of long bones than testosterone, which comprises of both accelerating growth and promoting the fusion of the growth plates, which will ultimately stop further increase in height.
One reason why women are on average shorter than men is that they develop under higher levels of estradiol, which has a potent effect on growth plate fusion. The other reason has to do with some genes on the Y chromosome that result in male-specific growth and have no counterparts in women.
It has been my observation that in women, the lower legs are relatively shorter for a given leg length and upper legs relatively longer, but what about leg length for a given height? These issues do not make it obvious which group has relatively longer legs, but I didn’t think about all this before posting the article.
Sorokowski and Pawlowski performed a similar study, and the following is an excerpt from this study –
Quote:
However, it is questionable whether women have higher LBR [leg-length to body-length ratio] than men, throwing this explanation into doubt. Many studies show either that there is no sexual dimorphism in relative leg length within many human populations (Flugel, Greil, & Sommer 1983; Martin & Saller, 1958) or that 17-year-old boys (Martorell, Malina, Castillo, Mendoza, & Pawson, 1988) and adult men (Eveleth, 1978) have relatively longer legs and shorter trunks than women. More recently, Dangour, Schilg, Hulse, & Cole (2002) have shown that 18-year-old boys from Southeast England have relatively longer legs than girls. The mean subischial leg length to stature index is 0.472 for boys and 0.465 for girls (calculated from Dangour et al.'s 2002 data). As we will demonstrate, in our own sample of Polish adults (100 men and 118 women), men have a significantly higher LBR than women (t = -2.21, p < .03).
So the finds do not suggest relatively longer legs in women. Sorokowski and Pawlowski found that the judges preferred slightly relatively longer than average legs in both men and women. They also employed the figures used by Swami et al. except that they were blackened, and still found a preference for slightly relatively longer than average legs in both men and women.
Here are details about the study –
Quote:
Abstract – It has been shown that height is one of the morphological traits that influence a person's attractiveness. To date, few studies have addressed the relationship between different components of height and physical attractiveness. Here, we study how leg length influences attractiveness in men and women. Stimuli consisted of seven different pictures of a man and seven pictures of a woman in which the ratio between leg length and height was varied from the average phenotype by elongating and shortening the legs. One hundred men and 118 women were asked to assess the attractiveness of the silhouettes using a seven-point scale. We found that male and female pictures with shorter than average legs were perceived as less attractive by both sexes. Although longer legs appeared to be more attractive, this was true only for the slight (5%) leg length increase; excessively long legs decreased body attractiveness for both sexes. Because leg length conveys biological quality, we hypothesize that such preferences reflect the workings of evolved mate-selection mechanisms. Short and/or excessively long legs might indicate maladaptive biological conditions such as genetic diseases, health problems, or weak immune responses to adverse environmental factors acting during childhood and adolescence.
They attempt to explain a preference for slightly longer than average legs in terms of health variables, but there also is the issue that humans have developed relatively longer legs compared to the ancestral species and hence there will be an aesthetic preference along these lines.
This woman is fat. there's a lot of fat around her waist and hip. Is she already has been pragnant? I've never seen the virgin young ladies with that stunning huge sack breasts before. by the way, I've read in some site that the hourglass figure isn't mean the women with huge breasts and fat hip but the woman with slender stall shape with average or small bust like cate blanchette and Live tyler, the woman you pose as feminine isn't hour glass shape but apple shape.
Erik, rubbing creams on the skin, though somewhat effective, is not the best way to remove cellulite. The best and most permanent way is to start the subject on a thorough diet and exercise plan, mainly consuming healthy vegetables and fruits (more vegetables than fruits because of the high sugar content in fruit which will probably make the problem worse). A diet rich in healthful meats, fats, and vegetables, along with exercises such as walking and running will help. Massaging the afflicted area along with hydrotherapy has also proven effective.
Also, going to this sort of diet will help in accentuating feminine beauty. A large amount of women are suffering from over-exposure to estrogen-like chemicals in the environment(soy, plastics, etc.) and this contributes to cellulite and masculine builds.
Just wanted to throw my two cents in! Very informative site by the way, everyone I ask tells me that they think that supermodels aren't that pretty because a) they oft times look like dudes and b) are too thin.
Movsepian: I have no personal experience with treatments for cellulite, but it looks like you are right about the much better results from laser-based treatment of cellulite.
Elsie: What you bought is almost certainly not meant to be injected but something meant to be rubbed on the skin. Injections for any kind of treatment fall under the domain of medical procedures, and you don't want to end up with scars and bruises. Regulatory agencies have been moving toward banning Spa services from offering mesotherapy procedures, and this ban is in effect in Kansas, Brazil, etc. So it is unlikely that you purchased an actual mesotherapy solution. You should have someone take good pictures of your bacskide and upper thighs and then try the cream on one side only for a few weeks to see if it ends up looking better than the other side. This is the recommended procedure or else if, say, you are simultaneously attempting to lose general body fat, then some fat loss from the dieting will improve the appearance of cellulite but you may mistakenly assume that the cellulite cream worked. Look into the laser-based treatments.
I purchased the meso products and was unclear on how to adminster the injections (eg. how much of the liquid and how many injections for the 1st treatment. How has the product been working for you? any great losses? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Oh, and really, no bath for 48 hours after?
I have watched elizabeth 2007 today. also marie antoinette 2006. I think erik find the creepy women with very super-white skin and chubby face are attactive. the only woman I like on the flim is cate blanchette, because she looks very elegrant and smart, eventhrought she is in that creepy make up. the other women like Elizabeth Throckmorton/abbie cornish is reminded me of this article, " Camille".
Erik : your tast are the same to the far east asian guys. I think in the medival time of europe, people were very pale and didn't have the facial's features like caucasian people in this century. from the portaits of all royal families in ancient time reminded me of the women in your site.
I give you the name of the girl who played " lady elizabeth throckmorton" abbie cornnish, perhape you could add her into your attactive feminine women section?
the author of this site is a fucking moron with revolting taste in women. maybe one day when i no longer have a life and a functioning relationship, i'll dedicate an obsessive, meticulous site to prove why my subjective evaluation of his taste is the right one.
The far east asian cosmetic advertisment presents the picture of natural asian eyes and after using mascara, eyeliner, big eyes contact lens.
The advertisment of korean cosmetic presents the pearl pink skin tone after using the product.
The presenter of korean cosmetic presents the princessy looking of far east asian girl after used the cosmetic.
The princessy cosmetic packadge in far east asia.
From my openion, I believe all caucasian guys would like to see far east asian girls pose tan skin, slant eyes and wearing short tee and fit jeans with straight thick jet black hair than unrealable vintage caucasian dresses and caucasian hair and skin. but I also understand how asian girls feel. they do not like caucasian males looking at them the way that caucasian people'd like to see in them. after marie antoinette movie 2006 has released. many of asian girls seem to enthustiatic more in making themselves to look like marie antoinette.
one girl said to me, she dosen't like caucasian guy looking at her like the native virgin islandic asian girls in many american flims. she'd rather wanted to feel like she was the caucasian missionary in victorian white dress.
The picture of far east asian women before and after used mascara, big eye contact lense and eyeliner, fake eyelash, nose high lightener.
The picture of natural big set eyes far east asian vs. natural big set eyes of caucasian Iranian.
The picture of smalle eyes far east asian after used mascara, eyeliner, make up powde, nose high lightener and big eyes contact lens.
The pictures of specifit asian cosmetics added caucasian looking skin.
many of far east asian girl like to use this product because it gives the naturally pink skin tone like natural caucasian skin.
The nameof cosmetic brands that give the far east asian women naturally caucasian look.
Jill Stuart
Anna sui
Etude.
paul & Joe
Dermabran ( I know some girl that uses the cream of this brand to all over her body, to get her skin pale pink like scandinavian women)
Majolica Majorca
Love Clover
Kiss me heroine
Kiss me princess
skin food
and in your article "what they are all about?" or smth like that , you compared model girls faces with boy faces. I would say that not the girl models look unfeminine but the boys look too feminine. didn't you know that high cheeckbones , voluptious lips , small , narrow nose , big , childish and sparkling eyes , and shapely eyebrows are a sign of high estrogen level in woman's body.
that was a super stupid article. it just proved nothing but the boys you took have a little too much of estrogen ;D
i just want to say a few words: keep your opinion for yourself.
most of the men would never say that karolina kurkova is unnatractive or non-feminine - i agree she doesn't have dd size breasts , but most of the woman don't. In my opinion fat woman can never be called feminine just because they have more fat than slim ones. Curvy woman are those who have noticable lines ( about 90 -60- 90 is definetely perfect ). Those models or porn stars i don't know , who you compare to karolina are pretty slim , but thay do look vulgar not like karolina.
I strongly agree with harper's opinion. You don't have any surveys what man trully like - go to the bastardly.com and you'll see how man adores those VS bodies. there are no evidences that VS women aren't attractive or look tran it's just your opinion and you can compare those girls with whatever you like but again it will be just your taste in beauty with no proves , what is more feminine.
PS. Leatitia casta was always one of my favourites ;) She is really very feminine.
Rhytides (wrinkles) and fractional photothermolysis
The latest on using lasers to tackle wrinkles and other skin blemishes.
Quote:
Download reports.
If you do research in this field, then I look forward to your tearing apart my arguments. Criticism from academics is always welcome, and yours will hopefully be substantiated. You will not find people more interested in data and hypothesis testing than me, and I am your man if you are looking for pictures and computer-generated imagery to do research on female attractiveness.
If I have a spare hour or so I may come back at some point and tear apart this set of straw man arguments salted with research from an assortment of second tier journals, but at the moment I'm tired and busy.
So I will most likely allow you to wallow in your agressive ignorance.
Singh has hardly been refuted. What you have done is called "cherry picking" in the scientific community. You cite a handful of obscure publications that support your view-point.
You want to put forward some personal agenda which aparently has something to do with gay men in the fashion industry, while at the same time inflate your personal preference to a generalizable ideal. It's patently nonsense, but if thinking this keeps you warm at night then I won't tear away your security blanket.
I actually do research in this field an as such should spend my time on people interested in data and hypothesis testing, and not personal opinion and diatribe.
So I am conflating several points? You cited a dictionary definition of masculine and feminine. Has it not occurred to you that this website is concerned with anatomical variation and the corresponding understanding has to be in terms of shape (see example1, example2)? Also, whereas women are typically feminine compared to men, I am addressing variation within women. In other words, some women are on the masculine side of average among women and others on the feminine side of average. Whereas Rebecca Romijn would be cross-culturally recognized as a woman without the need to examine her genitals or breasts, and is clearly feminine compared to the typical man, she is overall on the masculine side of average among women of her ethnic group, notwithstanding her reported WHR being slightly below average and hence on the feminine side of average. Rebecca Romijn looks like a female, but not a feminine one among women.
Other things being left intact, even if Rebecca Romijn’s WHR were to increase to 0.9, she would still be cross-culturally recognized as a woman. So you are unnecessarily bringing in the recognition of femaleness issue, which is a non-issue to start with.
Quote:
To date accepted? Singh’s ode to a 0.7 WHR has been refuted. Better methodology has revealed an optimum preference for lower WHRs among European populations and cross-cultural optimums clearly different from 0.7. And you did not refute the masculinization part. Reported WHR (and also front view WHR, as assessed in numerous studies) is not strongly correlated with other measures of physical femininity among women. Hence, an overall more masculine woman can easily have a lower WHR than an overall more feminine woman. You have also focused on reported WHR, which captures far less information about Rebecca Romijn’s look than the numerous pictures that I have cited. The woman is clearly on the masculine side of average among women of her ethnic group.
In response to my asking you to look at her overall looks, you wrote –
Quote:
I have long cited geometric morphometrics within this site, and it goes far beyond capturing mere means and variances; it describes shape variation as shown in the two linked examples above. Ethnic issues are irrelevant to this topic.
Quote:
A strong preference for above average physical femininity in women has been repeatedly demonstrated in many studies, including cross-cultural samples, and is surely not a highly suspect find. Studies that have documented this find have shown it for variation within women, which is what this site is concerned with. Not all of these studies are limited to young adult judges. Besides, an aesthetic preference need not be cross-culturally generalizable for it be of any significance.
Quote:
Recognition signal? The typical young adult woman with a WHR of 0.8 – 0.9 will conceive and give birth, but will, on average, have lower fecundity and fertility than young adult women with a WHR of 0.6 – 0.7. The recognition issue is not about whether the woman is “reproductively active” but about whether the woman has high reproductive potential. The reason why WHR by itself is poorly correlated with overall attractiveness has to do with WHR capturing little of the information regarding a woman’s overall looks and being weakly-to-moderately correlated with miscellaneous measures of physical femininity.
My question – “How can you fail to see masculinization?” – is not an appeal to my taste. Physical masculinization is an objective assessment. The question “How can you fail to see her unattractiveness?” would be an appeal to my subjective preferences.
Let's address your argument again shall we?
As is common in people who don't understand the fields of Behavioral Ecology, Sexual Selection and Evolutionary Psychology, you are conflating several points in your argument. The central one is confusing preference with recognition.
From the Merriam and Webster dictionary:
Masculine
Pronunciation:
\'mas-ky?-l?n\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Middle English masculin, from Latin masculinus, from masculus, noun, male, diminutive of mas male
Date:
14th century
1 a: male b: having qualities appropriate to or usually associated with a man
Saying someone is masculine means that they are recognized as male, not that they match some Platonic ideal of male beauty. The same may be said of feminine with regards to female.
As your argument rests on her being not feminine but masculine, I presented four (admittedly older but to date accepted) studies on the cross-cultural relevance of waist to hip to refute your statement that she is "masculine".
"So pointing out a reported WHR of 0.7 in fashion models to argue that they are appealing to the general population is useless."
So in response to your above statements, we are not talking about appealing (preference) we are discussing masculine versus feminine (recognition). As Miss Romijn's waist to hip ratio is an almost perfect 0.69 she would be recognized as feminine, or female, in every culture on the Earth.
"Look at Rebecca Romijn overall."
Here you commit another classic error, stepping into the far muddier waters of masculine versus feminine faces and body measures. While you can certainly gather data from mens' faces and womens' faces, as well as measurements from other parts of their bodies, all that you end up doing is defining means and variances for those characteristics within populations. There are a number of incongruous results when you analyze the data across populations. Nose width between European and sub-saharan African populations and leg to body ratios between European and Asian populations spring to mind.
This is probably what you are thinking about as it tends to be the data presented in the majority of the publications you cite on this website. These tests are almost always done by taking measurements of faces from various populations and then asking undergraduate students in the United States to rank or compare their attractiveness of original faces or composite faces generated using various computer programs. While this does say something about the preferences of 18 to 21 year old young adults from various cities in the United States during the year that the test was carried out, it says surprisingly little that is generalizable about preferences overall or between various cultures. If the tests were done in a year the Miss Romijn had a big movie out you might very well she her face being preferred by more students than you would expect.
If you look at European means and variances for any of these facial or body measurements, I am sure Miss Romijn's falls well withing the spread of data points for women, and hence she is certainly feminine.
Any judgment or assessment of attractiveness is highly suspect and to date few if any reputable studies exist that espouse a cross-cultural preference for any body measurement. This is why the waist hip ratio data is trotted out so much. The fact that it explains very little of the preference for a particular individual is due to a number of factors but the most compelling of them is that it is a signal that identifies an individual as a reproductively active female human. This as I explained earlier is a recognition signal.
"How can you fail to see masculinization?"
Ah and now the final gross error I will address. "I see it don't you?" A direct appeal to individual taste. Whatever I think when I look at Miss Romijn means nothing. It is purely subjective. The same can be said about your opinion. In science "Eine mal ist kien mal", and the opinion of a single individual is anecdote not data. Your eye is of course the arbiter of your own aesthetic, but don't ever confuse this with any objective reality.
You try very hard on this website to convince yourself and others that your views are generalizable, but, most simply, they are not. While your opinion regarding what is masculine or feminine may correlate highly with a given data set, that does not lend it any relevance across cultural lines and lends it only weak support within a given culture. Always remember correlation is not causation and just because you think it it true does not mean it is. I have been proven wrong more often than right over the course of my 15 years in the field of Behavioral Ecology. So until you bring some real data to bear, I would tread lightly.
Also I want to add more pictures of the asian male transvestites that look very close to northeast asian women. I have never seen the caucasian male transvestites look like caucasian women yet. this probably because the northeast asian women have facial's features closing to the males. also I have seen the south east asian male transvestite but they also do not look like south east asian women, but look like chinese or korean. one of my swedish friend had been visited thailand and watched the gay performance in some theater two years ago. lately, everytime when he walked pass the far east asian girl with the narrow face, caucasian nose, big eyes of eyeliner and mascara with epicanthic fold and super white skin, then he makes disgusting face and say " that girl looks like male transvestite, she is ugly."
More pictures of male transvestite in asia. ( the face looks very much like Alien, very flat, plastic beauty, unnatuaral and only the three things on the face that look promenant are the eyes, nose and lips.)
http://www.mediathai.net/module/gallery/images/gallery_medium_images/727_33111.jpg
http://rcweb.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=670802&stc=1&d=1185178600
http://gossipstar.igetweb.com/gallery/106936.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee274/akapong99/album10/008-1.jpg
When I see Melisande I think of this asian male transvestites.
Melisande has her face like a male. I hate the woman with the skinny long face and small eyes, it's look like male. the long face is fine but not the skinny flat face.
These pictures below are not young women but male tranvestite. he also crowed miss gay 2004, many people find he looks like women but I don't think he is and he looks ugly for me. his face is flat without cheeks, the arms also too long like melisande. the original women have round cheeks, and big round eyes, small nose unlike the male transvestites with measurable oval face from plastic sugery.
and now take a look at the original feminine Finlandic woman. I never seen the male with the same face's shape like her. small nose, projection forhead and round cheeks like the baby.
The last photo remember me the showers we take together %-P
Do you remenber Paris in 2006 we met and drunk rhum??? The black devil cigarets??? How are u since this summer in europe!
I'm here for tell everybody: MELISANDE IS A REAL BIG GIRL!!!!!
and spended time in her company is very fine,she's very feminine in her way of life and she how to enjoy! I LOVE YOU GIRL NEVER FORGET YOU
if u want contact me u got my email
CIAO..
I bought the treatments online which included the solution and the needles as well as the numbing cream. I have watched and read the information online and even saw people having it done on youtube.com I must admit, the bruising is what I am a little scared of. But the information that I have read, everyone is pleased with the results. Is there or does anybody know of someone that has actually done the at home injection procedure? thanks
Dermabrasion
Dermabrasion is a skin resurfacing procedure that may be used by itself or in combination with another treatment to treat acne scars, rhinophyma (large, bulbous, reddish appearance of nose, commonly due to rosacea), scars from various injuries, unwanted tattoos and some other skin conditions. Here is the latest on this procedure.
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Benefits of combining antiaging creams/lotions with aesthetic procedures involving botulinum toxin, chemical peels, dermabrasion (mechanically abrasive treatment of skin), skin fillers or lasers
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also scarlette johansson.
Revised argument about ‘leg-length to height’ ratio and attractiveness
There has been a debate above about whether women or men have relatively longer legs. I should have thought more about this issue before posting. Aram mentioned women needing extra torso length/space for pregnancy. This sounds reasonable, and it has been shown that women’s attractiveness increases with an elongated abdominal region, but the rib cage of women is expected to be relatively smaller (including vertically shorter). So one doesn’t expect the entire torso of women to be relatively longer than in men.
Peter mentioned that growth is estrogen fueled. Actually, there are many growth factors (growth hormone, testosterone, etc.), but the estrogen estradiol has a much more powerful effect on the growth of long bones than testosterone, which comprises of both accelerating growth and promoting the fusion of the growth plates, which will ultimately stop further increase in height.
One reason why women are on average shorter than men is that they develop under higher levels of estradiol, which has a potent effect on growth plate fusion. The other reason has to do with some genes on the Y chromosome that result in male-specific growth and have no counterparts in women.
It has been my observation that in women, the lower legs are relatively shorter for a given leg length and upper legs relatively longer, but what about leg length for a given height? These issues do not make it obvious which group has relatively longer legs, but I didn’t think about all this before posting the article.
Sorokowski and Pawlowski performed a similar study, and the following is an excerpt from this study –
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So the finds do not suggest relatively longer legs in women. Sorokowski and Pawlowski found that the judges preferred slightly relatively longer than average legs in both men and women. They also employed the figures used by Swami et al. except that they were blackened, and still found a preference for slightly relatively longer than average legs in both men and women.
Here are details about the study –
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They attempt to explain a preference for slightly longer than average legs in terms of health variables, but there also is the issue that humans have developed relatively longer legs compared to the ancestral species and hence there will be an aesthetic preference along these lines.
This woman is fat. there's a lot of fat around her waist and hip. Is she already has been pragnant? I've never seen the virgin young ladies with that stunning huge sack breasts before. by the way, I've read in some site that the hourglass figure isn't mean the women with huge breasts and fat hip but the woman with slender stall shape with average or small bust like cate blanchette and Live tyler, the woman you pose as feminine isn't hour glass shape but apple shape.
Here the hour-glass figure.
Erik, rubbing creams on the skin, though somewhat effective, is not the best way to remove cellulite. The best and most permanent way is to start the subject on a thorough diet and exercise plan, mainly consuming healthy vegetables and fruits (more vegetables than fruits because of the high sugar content in fruit which will probably make the problem worse). A diet rich in healthful meats, fats, and vegetables, along with exercises such as walking and running will help. Massaging the afflicted area along with hydrotherapy has also proven effective.
Also, going to this sort of diet will help in accentuating feminine beauty. A large amount of women are suffering from over-exposure to estrogen-like chemicals in the environment(soy, plastics, etc.) and this contributes to cellulite and masculine builds.
Just wanted to throw my two cents in! Very informative site by the way, everyone I ask tells me that they think that supermodels aren't that pretty because a) they oft times look like dudes and b) are too thin.
Movsepian: I have no personal experience with treatments for cellulite, but it looks like you are right about the much better results from laser-based treatment of cellulite.
Elsie: What you bought is almost certainly not meant to be injected but something meant to be rubbed on the skin. Injections for any kind of treatment fall under the domain of medical procedures, and you don't want to end up with scars and bruises. Regulatory agencies have been moving toward banning Spa services from offering mesotherapy procedures, and this ban is in effect in Kansas, Brazil, etc. So it is unlikely that you purchased an actual mesotherapy solution. You should have someone take good pictures of your bacskide and upper thighs and then try the cream on one side only for a few weeks to see if it ends up looking better than the other side. This is the recommended procedure or else if, say, you are simultaneously attempting to lose general body fat, then some fat loss from the dieting will improve the appearance of cellulite but you may mistakenly assume that the cellulite cream worked. Look into the laser-based treatments.
I purchased the meso products and was unclear on how to adminster the injections (eg. how much of the liquid and how many injections for the 1st treatment. How has the product been working for you? any great losses? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Oh, and really, no bath for 48 hours after?
I have watched elizabeth 2007 today. also marie antoinette 2006. I think erik find the creepy women with very super-white skin and chubby face are attactive. the only woman I like on the flim is cate blanchette, because she looks very elegrant and smart, eventhrought she is in that creepy make up. the other women like Elizabeth Throckmorton/abbie cornish is reminded me of this article, " Camille".
Erik : your tast are the same to the far east asian guys. I think in the medival time of europe, people were very pale and didn't have the facial's features like caucasian people in this century. from the portaits of all royal families in ancient time reminded me of the women in your site.
I give you the name of the girl who played " lady elizabeth throckmorton" abbie cornnish, perhape you could add her into your attactive feminine women section?
the author of this site is a fucking moron with revolting taste in women. maybe one day when i no longer have a life and a functioning relationship, i'll dedicate an obsessive, meticulous site to prove why my subjective evaluation of his taste is the right one.
The pictures before and after make up of far east asian girls.
(many of far east asian girls have got very white skin)
The far east asian cosmetic advertisment presents the picture of natural asian eyes and after using mascara, eyeliner, big eyes contact lens.
The advertisment of korean cosmetic presents the pearl pink skin tone after using the product.
The presenter of korean cosmetic presents the princessy looking of far east asian girl after used the cosmetic.
The princessy cosmetic packadge in far east asia.
From my openion, I believe all caucasian guys would like to see far east asian girls pose tan skin, slant eyes and wearing short tee and fit jeans with straight thick jet black hair than unrealable vintage caucasian dresses and caucasian hair and skin. but I also understand how asian girls feel. they do not like caucasian males looking at them the way that caucasian people'd like to see in them. after marie antoinette movie 2006 has released. many of asian girls seem to enthustiatic more in making themselves to look like marie antoinette.
one girl said to me, she dosen't like caucasian guy looking at her like the native virgin islandic asian girls in many american flims. she'd rather wanted to feel like she was the caucasian missionary in victorian white dress.
The picture of far east asian women before and after used mascara, big eye contact lense and eyeliner, fake eyelash, nose high lightener.
The picture of natural big set eyes far east asian vs. natural big set eyes of caucasian Iranian.
The picture of smalle eyes far east asian after used mascara, eyeliner, make up powde, nose high lightener and big eyes contact lens.
The pictures of specifit asian cosmetics added caucasian looking skin.
many of far east asian girl like to use this product because it gives the naturally pink skin tone like natural caucasian skin.
The nameof cosmetic brands that give the far east asian women naturally caucasian look.
Jill Stuart
Anna sui
Etude.
paul & Joe
Dermabran ( I know some girl that uses the cream of this brand to all over her body, to get her skin pale pink like scandinavian women)
Majolica Majorca
Love Clover
Kiss me heroine
Kiss me princess
skin food
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