MrBAI: Ethnic background is not an issue here. European women do not have a tendency to have shoulders wider than the waist or non-feminine physiques. Your impression apparently results from being exposed to European models, mostly in fashion/cosmetics-related settings. Most of them are not feminine, and this site explains the reasons why.
Hourglass feminine physiques are more common in Northern Europe than in/around the Caspian sea or Mediterranean region.
Angular features are not necessarily masculine or feminine, but Rebecca Romijn is clearly overall masculinized. Regarding Layla, yes her hips are not wide and she doesn’t have narrow shoulders, but her looks are an overall better choice for a lingerie model.
Zonneschijn: Whereas a possible reason for the heavy overrepresentation of Eastern Europeans among high-fashion models is that they disproportionately have the looks that fashion designers are looking for, you have merely mentioned this possibility but provided no justification for it. I already mentioned this possibility toward the beginning of the article and discussed reasons why it is unlikely, which you have not argued against. Don’t waste my time with such poor arguments.
Don’t make it look like Coco Chanel is responsible for the trend. Even if Coco were responsible for being a trendsetter, her choice must have appealed to most other dominant designers for it to translate to the norm. The homosexuals pass the blame on others, and there is nothing like passing the blame on women. They also make it look like the women editors of the top fashion magazines are responsible for selecting skinny models.
Why in the world would modern women need to have a unisex, tall and skinny look? Womanhood is represented by the diversity it constitutes. There is nothing sophisticated, smart or romantic about the physical appearance of high-fashion models in general unless you are looking at it from the perspective of homosexual fashion designers. There are also plenty of overweight working women (good examples in Western societies would be America, Britain and Germany).
You have again mentioned the hybrid people of Eastern Europe, completely ignoring my cited evidence that these hybrids are not being selected as high-fashion models. The Eastern Europeans being selected look very European.
The Gypsies
Your alleged examples of gypsies are not typical of gypsies. Look at this group photograph of gypsies, and you will get an idea of how they generally look. They generally look like South Asians, and this is because of their South Asian origin. There will be outliers, and since they have been living among Europeans for many centuries, there would have been some instances of European men fathering the children of gypsy women and much rarer examples of European women birthing part-gypsy children. So your examples are of the outliers, or gypsies fathered by European men/people who are more European than gypsy, or Europeans dressed like gypsies.
Regarding the resemblance of some Gypsies to Greeks, just look at the location of Greece. Should it be surprising if Greece has a number of natives that look borderline European or non-European? Also, if you look at history, the Greek/Macedonian conquerors brought in many non-European slaves. So again, no surprise if there is some overlap.
Evolution?
Your examples of evolution are ridiculous. Evolution refers to change in gene frequencies, not to environmentally-induced changes in phenotype (physical appearance in your case). The reason you observe Southeast Asian women become lighter after years of living in Northern Europe is that they are exposed to less ultraviolet radiation. If they moved to Australia or Arizona (U.S.) and lived like a typical white person, a number of them would end up with dark brown or black skin.
Regarding the very dark Indians producing a daughter with very pale skin or Asiatic individuals ending with finer, lighter hair in Germany, don’t forget that some of these women though married to someone of a similar ethnic background, have fathered the children by European men. Many women indulge in this kind of behavior. Their husbands don’t know about it, and in the case of ethnically mixed populations such as Indians or Middle Eastern people, among whom notable skin color differences can exist among siblings, many of the husbands wouldn’t even suspect it. Even if you look at facial features, the face shape of Indians is close to European norms, and hence there would not be a lot of suspicion on the part of Indian husbands, and in the case of East Asians, East Asian-white mixes mostly lean toward Asian face shapes, and so again, some East Asian husbands wouldn’t suspect it.
There are other issues also –
Quote:
For instance, there is albinoidism, which is not a full blown case of albinism, but reduces skin color pigment production, and translates to dark parents giving birth to much lighter children. Brown parents can also naturally produce much lighter children without such genetics, but the odds will be low that a child ends up with the genetics of lighter skin from both parents.
Hair could become finer with time both as a result of aging or androgen-induced thinning.
Many of your pictures are of children. Newborn children have yet to darken to their normal skin tone. And, many blond children will acquire darker hair as they grow older. The facial features of children across different ethnic groups are less distinct that those of adults, but still you can tell that “this gipsy little girl is almost blonde as Scandinavian” doesn’t look Scandinavian.
I like this two picture of katrina but since she getting older it seems like her shape begin to get more buxum, thick shoulders and waist like latino women.
Erik : what do you think of kathrina kaif, the indian part english?
I think she looks gorgeous like greek's goddess, all of her facial's features are porportion, big set beautifull eyes.
Erik : why the fashion designers take the fashion models of easthern europe? this couldn't be answer something else better than the women in easthern europe have the body features verify to what fashion industry looking for.
from my other comment about the history of fashion started first time by coco chanel.so, every fashion industries follow her formula. that, the fashion models should be tall and skinny, unisex and represent the modern women looking. sophisicate body shape, smart, romantic and strong, style of the cloths present time also seem to suit for the women who is working outside house. working women are tend to be skinny and not much fat on their bodies. it's not possible for the woman who has the shape like dana benn? to wear the cloth like what fashion models are wearing on the catchwork. from my observation, the easthern european women are hybride people so they tend to have some part of their facial features or bodies look like ethnic women. such as, high cheeksbone, flat chests and large jaw etc. those characters seem to verify the picture of working women or art.
About the Gipsy's pictures
for the amteeths time, Don't you think many of gipsies'descendent, in easthern europe already look like european people? my relative visited rumania and she seen the gipsies. she finds many of gipsies are look like greek people, or easthern european with tanned skin. by the way, do you think those gipsies are the mixes of white people?
P.S I also met the Indian family in europe, the parents are very dark almost like mulatto in south africa but their daugther who born in europe has very pale skin. she can be pass as one of Italian or spanish. I think it's because those ethinic groups are really not black people. many of tanned skin or yellow south east asian women after lived in northern europe for a few years. their skin begin to get whiter and I have see one of my asian relative. her skin is almost same tone as german people with very reddish cheeks. do not have to mention about the hair that many of them find the coarse begin to get softer, small hair line, lighter color etc.
evolution is something amazing.
Do you believe this girls below are Gipsies?
Also I have never think before that the muslim arab in syria have that blond hair like the kids in this picture.
You seem to have confused your view of feminine/masculine with some sort of non-cultural objective standard. Your view is most simply your own. The only well established feminine phenotypic character is hip to waist ratio. Typically a hip to waist ratio of .69 to 1 is preferred across all cultures assayed to date. Ms. Romijn certainly falls well within that "feminine" phenotypic character.
Angular features are simply that and they have been viewed as variously masculine or feminine varying with time and culture.
Your taste in actresses to play Mystique is also entirely your own. The pics that you posted support your view but they are hardly a good cross section of Mystique as she has been drown by a variety of artists. In fact one of the earliest artists to draw her did so with quite broad shoulders.
Strangely the model you chose to put foward as a better choice has particularly boyish hips and a rather nondescript waist. Also her shoulders are rather broad too, you've simply posted photos in which she is holding her shoulders at an angle to make them look more narrow, or she is covering them with her hair.
gotta go with the fact that all women everywhere are finer than those women over there. In other words its a matter of taste.
I would kill for Molly or Daniella, as would I for Shay. You can have the reest of 'em.
I strongly agree about your points about feminine beauty- I'm a hetero female, and I find hourglass figures VERY appealing, if I saw a woman on the beach with a small waist and genrous round hips I would be appreciative of the aesthetic appeal it has, more than a bony girl with a large waist.
But after reading a while from this site, it makes me even more self-conscious. I will never have a small waist or small rib cage. The problem is with men. They should learn to look past that- women are not to blame if they are born larger than others, they still want to feel attractive and loved, or they will go through their lives miserable, thinking they are unfairly missing out because of their genes. And yes, I feel miserable sometimes, but lets stop rubbing it in, eh?
Anyone who knows anything about evolution knows that beauty is in no way in the 'eye of the beholder' otherwise Angelina Jolie and David Beckham are in one hell of alot of beholders eyes....
Since humans ARE animals, you'll see the same effects in other animals, not just humans. A famous example of this is a research paper entitled 'Female choice selects for male sexual tail ornaments in the monogamous swallow' by andreas moller.
Z/Zonneschijn: You fool, here is how to argue against a notion. You need to provide reasons why the offered explanation is incorrect or most likely so. You can strengthen your critique by citing an alternative explanation.
You made no attempt to argue against my reasoning, and cited an alternative that can be easily refuted. Supermodels.nl provides an extensive list of currently active high-fashion models. Click on the names of those with Eastern European last names and see how they look. You will see pale Europeans, many with light hair. Just about all will look very European. There goes your “hybride ethinic groups” explanation.
Red hair, in all its varieties, is more common in Scotland and Ireland than in Eastern Europe. Designers looking for dark-haired pale women would focus more on England than Eastern Europe. European gypsies are of South Asian origin and typically darker (also facial differences) than the women you are describing as gypsies. You should find out how many prominent high-fashion models have the looks of ethnic Greeks/Turks or other populations from the southeastern region.
Debra: Darling, I don’t make empty claims of knowing better. I let the evidence speak for itself. If you have a better explanation, state it. And my condescending statement is directed at Emily Nussbaum, not women in general, and I don’t believe it is unfair. Most people haven’t thought much about the main issue being addressed in Nussbaum’s essay, but here you have someone do extensive research and not have a clue about the real reason, and she gets to “inform” millions about the reason “why.” In contrast, I am not being patronizing by addressing you as darling, but simply expressing my liking for you.
I came across this article, and it is definitely interesting. Iron in the cells is normally largely sequestered by some iron-binding proteins, but exposure to the sun, specifically ultraviolet radiation, releases some of this iron, and then the iron is free to facilitate some cellular reactions that increase oxidative damage (via reactive oxygen species; ROS) and hence contribute to aging.
A possible solution to the problem is to use topical iron chelators (basically, they reduce the availability of iron for catalyzing the reaction leading to ROS). This article is 4 years old and there may be updated finds by now, but it mentioned the following three iron chelators that have been successfully used in studies involving hairless mice exposed to ultraviolet radiation:
Quote:
2,2’-dipyridyl, 1,10-phenanthroline and 2,2’-dipyridylamine (DPA)
2-furildioxime (FDO)
N-(4-pyridoxy/methylene)-L-serine (PYSerine)
The article mentioned that Kojic acid (5-hydroxy-2-(hydroxymethyl)-4-pyrone), which is widely used for skin whitening in Japan, has an iron-chelating function. Kojic acid has been shown to have anti-wrinkle properties in hairless mice exposed to ultraviolet radiation.
Hugh Ristik: I hadn’t closely looked at your reference to the “machine judgment of beauty” study. The one that I have addressed is the previous version, but you cited the new version, which had more measurements and hence a better correlation with human judgment. Anyway, the shortcomings of the previous approach still apply. I will add a description of the new study to where I addressed the previous one from these authors.
Men and women aesthetically prefer women with small breasts?
I got the pdf of the study that reported an aesthetic preference for small women’s breasts in both men and women, but the article does not provide the images that the authors used. However, they mentioned that the silhouettes depicting large breasts were unrealistic.
Here is the study:
Quote:
Abstract: This study looked at the contribution of breast size and buttock size on ratings of female physical attractiveness in profile. A total of 114 British undergraduates rated 9 silhouettes with 3 varying levels of breast size and 3 levels of buttock size. Results showed significant main effects of breast size (with an overall preference for small breasts) but not of buttock size. Gender of the participants did not have a significant effect on the variables, although there was a significant interaction of breast and buttock size. The findings suggest that variables such as breast size are minor cues of female physical attractiveness.
Chances are that the authors’ study images were absurd. They attempt to explain their find in a number of ways, apart from the oddity of the stimuli used. They say:
Quote:
For example, preferred breast size increased continually from its flat period in the 1920s to the large-breasted ideal of the early 1960s. Since then, preferred breast size has become smaller, although there has been a recent trend towards large-breasted figures in media
appealing to men (Koff & Benevage, 1998).
Furnham and Swami are referring to the 20th century trends above, and they had better read the reason why behind the trend.
They also wrote the following.
Quote:
The suggestion that there is high variability in preferences for breast size is supported by studies of cosmetic breast surgery. What is notable is the popularity of both breast enlargement and breast reduction. For example, in 1994, American women had over 39,000 breast augmentations, 36,000 breast reductions, and more than 10,000 breast lifts (Grant, 1996). Of course, women may choose augmentation and reduction surgery for different reasons. While most women elect to have breast augmentation primarily for aesthetic purposes, breast reduction is usually performed on women who want to relieve the physical discomfort associated with large breasts (Fallon, 1990). Nevertheless, the relatively comparable frequencies of both augmentations and reductions suggest that, as far as breasts are concerned, both smallness and largeness may be experienced as undesirable or unattractive.
They have cited 12-year-old statistics. In 2007, American women underwent around 350,000 breast augmentation surgeries and about 125,000 breast reduction surgeries. So it appears that augmentation is more popular, but breast reduction is not classified as cosmetic surgery, i.e., for predominantly aesthetic reasons, given the typical purpose, namely, spinal/posture problems associated with large breasts.
Anyway, it is true that breast size by itself is not very important to women’s beauty. There are plenty of very attractive women with very small breasts just as there are plenty of unattractive women with large breasts. But other things being equal, if proper stimuli are used – physiques with a healthy amount of body weight, realistic images – then a central tendency to prefer somewhat above average breasts size should be observed.
Here is the reply of the first author to Gary Alter’s comment:
Quote:
Sir:
I appreciate the opportunity to reply to Dr. Alter’s thoughtful letter regarding our article on aesthetic labia minora reduction.(1) This allows me to clarify some points of confusion as to the “drawbacks” he suggests for an inferior wedge resection procedure. Dr. Alter is highly recognized as an authority in genital surgery, especially modern aesthetic labia minora reduction, of which he was one of the pioneers (central wedge technique, 1998 (2)). Dr. Alter’s letter makes many good points, and I would not presume to argue with him. I think he actually seems to agree with much of what my coauthors and I said, but he differs with regard to my interpretation of the inferior wedge technique concept. I thank him for his comments.
As mentioned in the Discussion, the inferior wedge technique is a variation of the innovative technique described by Dr. Alter in 1998 (2) and adapted by Rouzier et al. in 2000.(4) In Dr. Alter’s article, he mentions a wedge-shaped resection in the inferior part of the labia minora and superior flap reconstruction in cases where the labia minora are more protuberant throughout their extension. Correspondingly, the Rouzier group described a V-shaped redundant labial tissue resection located in the inferior region of the labia minora. The surgical planning was performed through rigid marking whereby the authors utilized two Kocher clamps. The first clamp was placed on the posterior part of the labia minora close to their base, and the second was placed across the labia minora. Together they formed an angle of approximately 90 degrees. Unlike Rouzier et al., my coauthors and I avoided rigid marking, because the tissue redundancy varies a lot. For moderate hypertrophy, we prefer a small reduction with an angle between the two lines equal to or less than 90 degrees. In the presence of severe hypertrophy, and if the patient desires a more aggressive reduction, the angle can be greater than 120 degrees.
With regard to the statement “[w]omen seeking this operation desire removal of the most bulky and protruding tissue,” my coauthors and I totally agree with Dr. Alter. However, his statements that “[r]emoval of an inferior wedge leaves the bulky superior tissue as the labial edge” and “is counterproductive” are partially true and do not appear to be supported by published data. This has certainly not been my experience.
In my practice, once the skin laxity also contributes to labia enlargement, simple removal of an inferior wedge can be productive. For this purpose, a simple preoperative evaluation can determine the amount of tissue to be resected and simulate the final result. With a small forceps, the medium portion of the labia minora is stretched inferiorly until the posterior part of the vagina introits (pinching test). If skin tension is observed, the forceps is moved upward; if skin laxity is noted, the forceps is moved downward to resect more tissue. Using this maneuver, it is possible to simulate the final aesthetic result and estimate the amount of tissue that needs to be resected and the extension of the superior flap. Thus, I do not believe that the technique is “counterproductive.” In addition, care must be taken to make certain that the tissue enlargement is not overresected to prevent a tight introitus. When planning the wedge-shaped resection area through the pinch test, the surgeon should place two or three fingers inside the introitus and stretch the labia minora, to estimate a safe amount of tissue resection. The same concept can be used to avoid underresection and tissue enlargement relapse.
Since submission of the article, I have continued to use the technique on patients and have yet to observe a good aesthetic outcome. The study demonstrates that the inferior wedge is a simple and consistent technique. The complications observed were expected and did not extend patients’ hospital stay or interfere with the normal postoperative period. As is frequently observed in any aesthetic surgical procedure, success depends on patient selection, careful preoperative planning, and adequate intraoperative management.
Although I do not doubt that Dr. Alter achieves better results using his approach, the word “better” can be influenced by personal bias, especially when it is applied to aesthetic appearance. Up to now, there has been no consensus concerning the best procedure for labia minora reduction. The main advantages of the technique used should include reproducibility, low interference with physiological function, and long-term results. It is almost certain that these objectives are not attained by any single procedure. Each technique has its advantages and limitations, depending on the excess cutaneous-mucosal tissue, skin laxity, and the patient’s sexual and athletic activities. A single surgical technique, in my opinion, never has been and never will be the optimal solution for every patient.
I thank Dr. Alter for providing us with practical clinical information, and I encourage him to publish his long-term experience with a central wedge excision combined with a lateral hockey stick V excision. No technique is perfect, and each surely has its own compromises.
Alexandre Mendonca Munhoz, M.D.
Department of Plastic Surgery
University of Sáo Paulo, Brazil
Rua Oscar Freire 1702 ap. 78
Sáo Paulo SP 05409-011, Brazil
Munhozalex [@] uol.com.br
REFERENCES
1. Munhoz, A., Filassi, J., Ricci, M., et al. Aesthetic labia minora reduction with inferior wedge resection and superior pedicle flap reconstruction. Plast. Reconstr. Surg. 118: 1237, 2006.
2. Alter, G. J. A new technique for aesthetic labia minora reduction. Ann. Plast. Surg. 40: 287, 1998.
3. Filassi, J. R., Munhoz, A. M., Ricci, M. D., and Melo, N. R. Aplicacao do retalho labial superior para correcao cirúgica da hipertrofia de pequenos lábios. Rev. Bras. Ginecol. Obstet. 26: 37, 2004.
4. Rouzier, R., Sylvestre, C., Paniel, B., and Haddad, B. Hypertrophy of labia minora: Experience with 163 reductions. Am. J. Obstet. Gynecol. 182: 35, 2000.
Please take the comments and link for Jessie Gilbert off the site. While
I respect the freedom as regards messages this is frankly loathsome and cannot be justified.
[wrong honey; read this site and you will learn more in a few hours than in months spent scouring magazines, newspapers, books and journals on the topic].
Honey?? That's what women need, yet another patroniser vying for position in an endless sea of the I know better brigade. Fight the good fight!
As a Polish woman, I am ashamed to have such contestants in the pageant. Poland has so many beautiful, feminine females, so I guess pageant officials decided to give the uglies a chance to compete and feel beautiful, too? These women look like trannies, no joke. What towns did they dig them up from, anyway?
MrBAI: Ethnic background is not an issue here. European women do not have a tendency to have shoulders wider than the waist or non-feminine physiques. Your impression apparently results from being exposed to European models, mostly in fashion/cosmetics-related settings. Most of them are not feminine, and this site explains the reasons why.
Hourglass feminine physiques are more common in Northern Europe than in/around the Caspian sea or Mediterranean region.
more pobjective: There is no such thing as a preference for 0.69 to 1 WHR across all cultures; WHRs in the 0.85 – 1 range do not look feminine. And it is ridiculous to cite a WHR of 0.7 in a fashion model to make your case when her pictures clearly reveals an overall masculinized woman.
Angular features are not necessarily masculine or feminine, but Rebecca Romijn is clearly overall masculinized. Regarding Layla, yes her hips are not wide and she doesn’t have narrow shoulders, but her looks are an overall better choice for a lingerie model.
Zonneschijn: Whereas a possible reason for the heavy overrepresentation of Eastern Europeans among high-fashion models is that they disproportionately have the looks that fashion designers are looking for, you have merely mentioned this possibility but provided no justification for it. I already mentioned this possibility toward the beginning of the article and discussed reasons why it is unlikely, which you have not argued against. Don’t waste my time with such poor arguments.
Don’t make it look like Coco Chanel is responsible for the trend. Even if Coco were responsible for being a trendsetter, her choice must have appealed to most other dominant designers for it to translate to the norm. The homosexuals pass the blame on others, and there is nothing like passing the blame on women. They also make it look like the women editors of the top fashion magazines are responsible for selecting skinny models.
Why in the world would modern women need to have a unisex, tall and skinny look? Womanhood is represented by the diversity it constitutes. There is nothing sophisticated, smart or romantic about the physical appearance of high-fashion models in general unless you are looking at it from the perspective of homosexual fashion designers. There are also plenty of overweight working women (good examples in Western societies would be America, Britain and Germany).
You have again mentioned the hybrid people of Eastern Europe, completely ignoring my cited evidence that these hybrids are not being selected as high-fashion models. The Eastern Europeans being selected look very European.
The Gypsies
Your alleged examples of gypsies are not typical of gypsies. Look at this group photograph of gypsies, and you will get an idea of how they generally look. They generally look like South Asians, and this is because of their South Asian origin. There will be outliers, and since they have been living among Europeans for many centuries, there would have been some instances of European men fathering the children of gypsy women and much rarer examples of European women birthing part-gypsy children. So your examples are of the outliers, or gypsies fathered by European men/people who are more European than gypsy, or Europeans dressed like gypsies.
Regarding the resemblance of some Gypsies to Greeks, just look at the location of Greece. Should it be surprising if Greece has a number of natives that look borderline European or non-European? Also, if you look at history, the Greek/Macedonian conquerors brought in many non-European slaves. So again, no surprise if there is some overlap.
Evolution?
Your examples of evolution are ridiculous. Evolution refers to change in gene frequencies, not to environmentally-induced changes in phenotype (physical appearance in your case). The reason you observe Southeast Asian women become lighter after years of living in Northern Europe is that they are exposed to less ultraviolet radiation. If they moved to Australia or Arizona (U.S.) and lived like a typical white person, a number of them would end up with dark brown or black skin.
Regarding the very dark Indians producing a daughter with very pale skin or Asiatic individuals ending with finer, lighter hair in Germany, don’t forget that some of these women though married to someone of a similar ethnic background, have fathered the children by European men. Many women indulge in this kind of behavior. Their husbands don’t know about it, and in the case of ethnically mixed populations such as Indians or Middle Eastern people, among whom notable skin color differences can exist among siblings, many of the husbands wouldn’t even suspect it. Even if you look at facial features, the face shape of Indians is close to European norms, and hence there would not be a lot of suspicion on the part of Indian husbands, and in the case of East Asians, East Asian-white mixes mostly lean toward Asian face shapes, and so again, some East Asian husbands wouldn’t suspect it.
There are other issues also –
Quote:
Don’t waste my time with poor arguments.
I like this two picture of katrina but since she getting older it seems like her shape begin to get more buxum, thick shoulders and waist like latino women.
Last one of katrina kaif.
Erik : what do you think of kathrina kaif, the indian part english?
I think she looks gorgeous like greek's goddess, all of her facial's features are porportion, big set beautifull eyes.
Many South Korean man love her and deem her as attractive woman ,and no they aren't gay ,bi or etc .
If i think she's pretty,than i must be sick or abnormal to you ??
I am not Asian by the way.I am from NY =originally from Russia.
I find Asian women just as beautiful as White ones.
I am curious ,are you Nordic North European ??
Here's few Hyolee pics.
http://www.zr5.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/sexy-lee-hyori-2.jpg
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/4424/leehyoriva01tv2.jpg
http://hyori.net/20040130_LA/photo_008_202.jpg
http://hyori.net/20040130_LA/photo_008_212.jpg
http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/2461/200702071924042030nn4.jpg
http://s2.supload.com/files/default/hb1195722546_Image_0782.jpg
Beauty is in the eye of beholder !
and lastly,evolution is not a fact.
God created humans.
Do you think Lee Hyori South Korean Pop singer -beautiful ??
Oh, forget one pic.
this gipsy little girl is almost blonde as scandinavian. :O)
Erik : why the fashion designers take the fashion models of easthern europe? this couldn't be answer something else better than the women in easthern europe have the body features verify to what fashion industry looking for.
from my other comment about the history of fashion started first time by coco chanel.so, every fashion industries follow her formula. that, the fashion models should be tall and skinny, unisex and represent the modern women looking. sophisicate body shape, smart, romantic and strong, style of the cloths present time also seem to suit for the women who is working outside house. working women are tend to be skinny and not much fat on their bodies. it's not possible for the woman who has the shape like dana benn? to wear the cloth like what fashion models are wearing on the catchwork. from my observation, the easthern european women are hybride people so they tend to have some part of their facial features or bodies look like ethnic women. such as, high cheeksbone, flat chests and large jaw etc. those characters seem to verify the picture of working women or art.
About the Gipsy's pictures
for the amteeths time, Don't you think many of gipsies'descendent, in easthern europe already look like european people? my relative visited rumania and she seen the gipsies. she finds many of gipsies are look like greek people, or easthern european with tanned skin. by the way, do you think those gipsies are the mixes of white people?
P.S I also met the Indian family in europe, the parents are very dark almost like mulatto in south africa but their daugther who born in europe has very pale skin. she can be pass as one of Italian or spanish. I think it's because those ethinic groups are really not black people. many of tanned skin or yellow south east asian women after lived in northern europe for a few years. their skin begin to get whiter and I have see one of my asian relative. her skin is almost same tone as german people with very reddish cheeks. do not have to mention about the hair that many of them find the coarse begin to get softer, small hair line, lighter color etc.
evolution is something amazing.
Do you believe this girls below are Gipsies?
Also I have never think before that the muslim arab in syria have that blond hair like the kids in this picture.
also This pakistani girl.
You seem to have confused your view of feminine/masculine with some sort of non-cultural objective standard. Your view is most simply your own. The only well established feminine phenotypic character is hip to waist ratio. Typically a hip to waist ratio of .69 to 1 is preferred across all cultures assayed to date. Ms. Romijn certainly falls well within that "feminine" phenotypic character.
Angular features are simply that and they have been viewed as variously masculine or feminine varying with time and culture.
Your taste in actresses to play Mystique is also entirely your own. The pics that you posted support your view but they are hardly a good cross section of Mystique as she has been drown by a variety of artists. In fact one of the earliest artists to draw her did so with quite broad shoulders.
Strangely the model you chose to put foward as a better choice has particularly boyish hips and a rather nondescript waist. Also her shoulders are rather broad too, you've simply posted photos in which she is holding her shoulders at an angle to make them look more narrow, or she is covering them with her hair.
gotta go with the fact that all women everywhere are finer than those women over there. In other words its a matter of taste.
I would kill for Molly or Daniella, as would I for Shay. You can have the reest of 'em.
I strongly agree about your points about feminine beauty- I'm a hetero female, and I find hourglass figures VERY appealing, if I saw a woman on the beach with a small waist and genrous round hips I would be appreciative of the aesthetic appeal it has, more than a bony girl with a large waist.
But after reading a while from this site, it makes me even more self-conscious. I will never have a small waist or small rib cage. The problem is with men. They should learn to look past that- women are not to blame if they are born larger than others, they still want to feel attractive and loved, or they will go through their lives miserable, thinking they are unfairly missing out because of their genes. And yes, I feel miserable sometimes, but lets stop rubbing it in, eh?
Anyone who knows anything about evolution knows that beauty is in no way in the 'eye of the beholder' otherwise Angelina Jolie and David Beckham are in one hell of alot of beholders eyes....
Since humans ARE animals, you'll see the same effects in other animals, not just humans. A famous example of this is a research paper entitled 'Female choice selects for male sexual tail ornaments in the monogamous swallow' by andreas moller.
Z/Zonneschijn: You fool, here is how to argue against a notion. You need to provide reasons why the offered explanation is incorrect or most likely so. You can strengthen your critique by citing an alternative explanation.
You made no attempt to argue against my reasoning, and cited an alternative that can be easily refuted. Supermodels.nl provides an extensive list of currently active high-fashion models. Click on the names of those with Eastern European last names and see how they look. You will see pale Europeans, many with light hair. Just about all will look very European. There goes your “hybride ethinic groups” explanation.
Red hair, in all its varieties, is more common in Scotland and Ireland than in Eastern Europe. Designers looking for dark-haired pale women would focus more on England than Eastern Europe. European gypsies are of South Asian origin and typically darker (also facial differences) than the women you are describing as gypsies. You should find out how many prominent high-fashion models have the looks of ethnic Greeks/Turks or other populations from the southeastern region.
Debra: Darling, I don’t make empty claims of knowing better. I let the evidence speak for itself. If you have a better explanation, state it. And my condescending statement is directed at Emily Nussbaum, not women in general, and I don’t believe it is unfair. Most people haven’t thought much about the main issue being addressed in Nussbaum’s essay, but here you have someone do extensive research and not have a clue about the real reason, and she gets to “inform” millions about the reason “why.” In contrast, I am not being patronizing by addressing you as darling, but simply expressing my liking for you.
Iron chelators may help prevent photoaging?
I came across this article, and it is definitely interesting. Iron in the cells is normally largely sequestered by some iron-binding proteins, but exposure to the sun, specifically ultraviolet radiation, releases some of this iron, and then the iron is free to facilitate some cellular reactions that increase oxidative damage (via reactive oxygen species; ROS) and hence contribute to aging.
A possible solution to the problem is to use topical iron chelators (basically, they reduce the availability of iron for catalyzing the reaction leading to ROS). This article is 4 years old and there may be updated finds by now, but it mentioned the following three iron chelators that have been successfully used in studies involving hairless mice exposed to ultraviolet radiation:
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The article mentioned that Kojic acid (5-hydroxy-2-(hydroxymethyl)-4-pyrone), which is widely used for skin whitening in Japan, has an iron-chelating function. Kojic acid has been shown to have anti-wrinkle properties in hairless mice exposed to ultraviolet radiation.
Kitazawa M, Iwasaki K, Sakamoto K. Iron chelators may help prevent photoaging. J Cosmet Dermatol. 2006 Sep;5(3):210-7.
The combination of 2% 4-hydroxyanisole (mequinol) and 0.01% tertinoin to tackle skin spots related to sun-induced aging
This is another useful combination, and is suitable for dark-skinned populations. It is sold as Solagé (Barrier Therapeutics, Princeton, NJ), and there may be other versions. Read the following.
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Hugh Ristik: I hadn’t closely looked at your reference to the “machine judgment of beauty” study. The one that I have addressed is the previous version, but you cited the new version, which had more measurements and hence a better correlation with human judgment. Anyway, the shortcomings of the previous approach still apply. I will add a description of the new study to where I addressed the previous one from these authors.
Men and women aesthetically prefer women with small breasts?
I got the pdf of the study that reported an aesthetic preference for small women’s breasts in both men and women, but the article does not provide the images that the authors used. However, they mentioned that the silhouettes depicting large breasts were unrealistic.
Here is the study:
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Chances are that the authors’ study images were absurd. They attempt to explain their find in a number of ways, apart from the oddity of the stimuli used. They say:
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Furnham and Swami are referring to the 20th century trends above, and they had better read the reason why behind the trend.
They also wrote the following.
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They have cited 12-year-old statistics. In 2007, American women underwent around 350,000 breast augmentation surgeries and about 125,000 breast reduction surgeries. So it appears that augmentation is more popular, but breast reduction is not classified as cosmetic surgery, i.e., for predominantly aesthetic reasons, given the typical purpose, namely, spinal/posture problems associated with large breasts.
Anyway, it is true that breast size by itself is not very important to women’s beauty. There are plenty of very attractive women with very small breasts just as there are plenty of unattractive women with large breasts. But other things being equal, if proper stimuli are used – physiques with a healthy amount of body weight, realistic images – then a central tendency to prefer somewhat above average breasts size should be observed.
Whereas diet may worsen or improve acne to a small extent, it is not the primary cause of acne.
Here is the reply of the first author to Gary Alter’s comment:
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Please take the comments and link for Jessie Gilbert off the site. While
I respect the freedom as regards messages this is frankly loathsome and cannot be justified.
[wrong honey; read this site and you will learn more in a few hours than in months spent scouring magazines, newspapers, books and journals on the topic].
Honey?? That's what women need, yet another patroniser vying for position in an endless sea of the I know better brigade. Fight the good fight!
As a Polish woman, I am ashamed to have such contestants in the pageant. Poland has so many beautiful, feminine females, so I guess pageant officials decided to give the uglies a chance to compete and feel beautiful, too? These women look like trannies, no joke. What towns did they dig them up from, anyway?
someone thinks only low rent models are women! Hmmmm.
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