VC called the lot of them morons because they have brought no factual arguments to the debate. They just spew nationalist bile. Bring some data to the table if you want to prove a point. All the numbers I have seen show most people who have plastic surgery are in fact White. The United States is the world-wide leader in cosmetic surgery with about 12 million surgeries performed in 2007 alone. The U.S. is a White majority country. We can probably safely assume most of those getting these procedures are white. More minorities are getting work done but by and large minorities in this country tend to not be in the economic position to do so. Europe (land of the perfect white woman lol) comes in second with about 2.2 billion in sales annually. Quite a bit lower than the U.S. Iran isn't even in the top ten. I don't think most Iranian women are running out to get their nose fixed.
Hi Eric, the measure of symmetry in faces and how well the phi mask fits a face, is completely different to the degree of feminisation/masculisation of the face. The latter signals the fertility of the man or woman and their hormone levels.
...Although, symmetrical humans are also displaying high reproductive value, (I believe that to divide perfectly, you would have to have had higher ability to fend off disease etc while developing.)so humans also strongly favour symmetrical mates.
Your face can fit the phi mask, but not be super feminine (catwalk models are aethetically very beautiful, but out of place in a men's magazine), and you can have a very feminine face and not fit the mask
You can also be both; Angelina Joile and Jessica Simpson both fit the mask and are very feminine. The two things are seperate IMO.
This thread is absolutely amazing. It gets no replies for over a year, and some of the first ones was a barrage of spam of Emily repeating the garbage she's been saying here for a year as well.
I mean my god, it immediately started with an attack on romanians. Even though the whole point of this essay was how it was inaccurate to perscribe this "beauty mask" as an ideal of human beauty. This critique was PUBLISHED IN A PEER REVIEWED JOURNAL. But Emily BLATANTLY IGNORED THAT. And found the need to inject some white nationalist politics into it.
I can't comment on Jane Butler's critique at the moment, but the whole point of what Erik is saying is how it's greatest fault is that it represents masculine women.
Back to Emily, though, I love this. She seems to turn almost ANY article on here into some race related. I won't be surprised if this little sociopath turns every discussion on here into something race related. And she's still repeating that flat out retarded claim of attractive asians having white ancestry.
I also like how nearly all of her photobucket images aren't showing up properly. I also wouldn't be surprised if she'd labor a few hours to re-upload all of her images shes spammed dozens of times before, to do it again.
"The results of our symmetry experiments show a clear but only weak relationship between facial attractiveness and symmetry: very asymmetrical faces are rated unattractive, but unattractive faces don't need to be asymmetrical. Vice versa, very symmetrical faces don't need to be very attractive, and very attractive faces may show remarkable deviations from ideally symmetrical proportions. In summary, symmetry seems only to be a weak factor to explain facial attractiveness."
Then again, facial symmetry varies strongly from individual to individual, and it's dependent on a whole host of factors, like lip size, nose structure, face size etc. Considering how jaw and cheekbone size is purely relative to femininity and masculinity, and is also related to another aspect of symmetry, body-head size, which is detailed on this site, it's thus inaccurate to say that features relating to european norms of smaller jaws and cheekbones and narrower faces are universally idealized- all facial types are prone to extremities, and certain jaw and cheekbone sizes are more prone as well.
But Erik barely addresses much of this. He's of the mindset that jaw and cheekbone size are correlates of femininity.
Apollyon is thankfully rather open-minded, but quite misguided, and is abit too sympathetic to Emily's arguments. I reccomend you read my arguments on other discussions, like the "fine, chiseled nordic nose" entry.
For closing, I leave this full deliniation of quotes from one of Charles Darwin's books, in regards to human beauty. While I've said before why some of these are suspect, they show a general trend and are very worthy of consideration:
"The Influence of Beauty in determining the Marriages of Mankind.- In civilised life man is largely, but by no means exclusively, influenced in the choice of his wife by external appearance; but we are chiefly concerned with primeval times, and our only means of forming a judgment on this subject is to study the habits of existing semi-civilised and savage nations. If it can be shewn that the men of different races prefer women having various characteristics, or conversely with the women, we have then to enquire whether such choice, continued during many generations, would produce any sensible effect on the race, either on one sex or both according to the form of inheritance which has prevailed.
It will be well first to shew in some detail that savages pay the greatest attention to their personal appearance.* That they have a passion for ornament is notorious; and an English philosopher goes so far as to maintain that clothes were first made for ornament and not for warmth. As Professor Waitz remarks, "however poor and miserable man is, he finds a pleasure in adorning himself." The extravagance of the naked Indians of South America in decorating themselves is shewn "by a man of large stature gaining with difficulty enough by the labour of a fortnight to procure in exchange the chica necessary to paint himself red."*(2) The ancient barbarians of Europe during the Reindeer period brought to their caves any brilliant or singular objects which they happened to find. Savages at the present day everywhere deck themselves with plumes, necklaces, armlets, ear-rings, &c. They paint themselves in the most diversified manner. "If painted nations," as Humboldt observes, "had been examined with the same attention as clothed nations, it would have been perceived that the most fertile imagination and the most mutable caprice have created the fashions of painting, as well as those of garments."
* A full and excellent account of the manner in which savages in all parts of the world ornament themselves, is given by the Italian traveller, Professor Mantegazza, Rio de la Plata, Viaggi e Studi, 1867, pp. 525-545; all the following statements, when other references are not given, are taken from this work. See, also, Waitz, Introduction to Anthropology, Eng. translat., vol. i., 1863, p. 275, et passim. Lawrence also gives very full details in his Lectures on Physiology, 1822. Since this chapter was written Sir J. Lubbock has published his Origin of Civilisation, 1870, in which there is an interesting chapter on the present subject, and from which (pp. 42, 48) I have taken some facts about savages dyeing their teeth and hair, and piercing their teeth.
*(2) Humboldt, Personal Narrative, Eng. translat., vol. iv., p. 515; on the imagination shewn in painting the body, p. 522; on modifying the form of the calf of the leg, p. 466.
In one part of Africa the eyelids are coloured black; in another the nails are coloured yellow or purple. In many places the hair is dyed of various tints. In different countries the teeth are stained black, red, blue, &c., and in the Malay Archipelago it is thought shameful to have white teeth "like those of a dog." Not one great country can be named, from the polar regions in the north to New Zealand in the south, in which the aborigines do not tattoo themselves. This practice was followed by the Jews of old, and by the ancient Britons. In Africa some of the natives tattoo themselves, but it is a much more common practice to raise protuberances by rubbing salt into incisions made in various parts of the body; and these are considered by the inhabitants of Kordofan and Darfur "to be great personal attractions." In the Arab countries no beauty can be perfect until the cheeks "or temples have been gashed."* In South America, as Humboldt remarks, "a mother would be accused of culpable indifference towards her children, if she did not employ artificial means to shape the calf of the leg after the fashion of the country." In the Old and New Worlds the shape of the skull was formerly modified during infancy in the most extraordinary manner, as is still the case in many places, and such deformities are considered ornamental. For instance, the savages of Colombia*(2) deem a much flattened head "an essential point of beauty."
* The Nile Tributaries, 1867; The Albert N'yanza, 1866, vol. i., p. 218.
*(2) Quoted by Prichard, Physical History of Mankind, 4th ed., vol. i., 1851, p. 321.
The hair is treated with especial care in various countries; it is allowed to grow to full length, so as to reach to the ground, or is combed into "a compact frizzled mop, which is the Papuan's pride and glory."* In northern Africa "a man requires a period of from eight to ten years to perfect his coiffure." With other nations the head is shaved, and in parts of South America and Africa even the eyebrows and eyelashes are eradicated. The natives of the Upper Nile knock out the four front teeth, saying that they do not wish to resemble brutes. Further south, the Bakotas knock out only the two upper incisors, which, as Livingstone*(2) remarks, gives the face a hideous appearance, owing to the prominence of the lower jaw; but these people think the presence of the incisors most unsightly, and on beholding some Europeans, cried out, "Look at the great teeth!" The chief Sebituani tried in vain to alter this fashion. In various parts of Africa and in the Malay Archipelago the natives file the incisors into points like those of a saw, or pierce them with holes, into which they insert studs.
* On the Papuans, Wallace, The Malay Archipelago, vol. ii., p. 445. On the coiffure of the Africans, Sir S. Baker, The Albert N'yanza, vol. i., p. 210.
*(2) Travels, p. 533.
As the face with us is chiefly admired for its beauty, so with savages it is the chief seat of mutilation. In all quarters of the world the septum, and more rarely the wings of the nose are pierced; rings, sticks, feathers, and other ornaments being inserted into the boles. The ears are everywhere piereed and similarly ornamented, and with the Botocudos and Lenguas of South America the hole is gradually so much enlarged that the lower edge touches the shoulder. In North and South America and in Africa either the upper or lower lip is pierced; and with the Botocudos the hole in the lower lip is so large that a disc of wood, four inches in diameter, is placed in it. Mantegazza gives a curious account of the shame felt by a South American native, and of the ridicule which he excited, when he sold his tembeta,- the large coloured piece of wood which is passed through the hole. In central Africa the women perforate the lower lip and wear a crystal, which, from the movement of the tongue, has "a wriggling motion, indescribably ludicrous during conversation." The wife of the chief of Latooka told Sir S. Baker* that Lady Baker "would be much improved if she would extract her four front teeth from the lower jaw, and wear the long pointed polished crystal in her under lip." Further south with the Makalolo, the upper lip is perforated, and a large metal and bamboo ring, called a pelele, is worn in the hole. "This caused the lip in one case to project two inches beyond the tip of the nose; and when the lady smiled, the contraction of the muscles elevated it over her eyes. 'Why do the women wear these things?' the venerable chief, Chinsurdi, was asked. Evidently surprised at such a stupid question, he replied, 'For beauty! They are the only beautiful things women have; men have beards, women have none. What kind of a person would she be without the pelele? She would not be a woman at all with a mouth like a man, but no beard.'"*(2)
* The Albert N'Yanza, 1866, vol. i., p. 217.
*(2) Livingstone, British Association, 1860; report given in the Athenaeum, July 7, 1860, p. 29.
Hardly any part of the body, which can be unnaturally modified, has escaped. The amount of suffering thus caused must have been extreme, for many of the operations require several years for their completion, so that the idea of their necessity must be imperative. The motives are various; the men paint their bodies to make themselves appear terrible in battle; certain mutilations are connected with religious rites, or they mark the age of puberty, or the rank of the man, or they serve to distinguish the tribes. Amongst savages the same fashions prevail for long periods,* and thus mutilations, from whatever cause first made, soon come to be valued as distinctive marks. But self-adornment, vanity, and the admiration of others, seem to be the commonest motives. In regard to tattooing, I was told by the missionaries in New Zealand that when they tried to persuade some girls to give up the practice, they answered, "We must just have a few lines on our lips; else when we grow old we shall be so very ugly." With the men of New Zealand, a most capable judge*(2) says, "to have fine tattooed faces was the great ambition of the young, both to render themselves attractive to the ladies, and conspicuous in war." A star tattooed on the forehead and a spot on the chin are thought by the women in one part of Africa to be irresistible attractions.*(3) In most, but not all parts of the world, the men are more ornamented than the women and often in a different manner; sometimes, though rarely, the women are hardly at all ornamented. As the women are made by savages to perform the greatest share of the work, and as they are not allowed to eat the best kinds of food, so it accords with the characteristic selfishness of man that they should not be allowed to obtain, or use the finest ornaments. Lastly, it is a remarkable fact, as proved by the foregoing quotations, that the same fashions in modifying the shape of the head, in ornamenting the hair, in painting, tattooing, in perforating the nose, lips, or ears, in removing or filing the teeth, &c., now prevail, and have long prevailed, in the most distant quarters of the world. It is extremely improbable that these practices, followed by so many distinct nations, should be due to tradition from any common source. They indicate the close similarity of the mind of man, to whatever race he may belong, just as do the almost universal habits of dancing, masquerading, and making rude pictures.
* Sir S. Baker (ibid., vol. i., p. 210) speaking of the natives of central Africa says, "Every tribe has a distinct and unchanging fashion for dressing the hair." See Agassiz (Journey in Brazil, 1868, p. 318) on invariability of the tattooing of Amazonian Indians.
*(2) Rev. R. Taylor, New Zealand and its Inhabitants, 1855, p. 152.
*(3) Mantegazza, Viaggi e Studi, p. 542.
Having made these preliminary remarks on the admiration felt by savages for various ornaments, and for deformities most unsightly in our eyes, let us see how far the men are attracted by the appearance of their women, and what are their ideas of beauty. I have heard it maintained that savages are quite indifferent about the beauty of their women, valuing them solely as slaves; it may therefore be well to observe that this conclusion does not at all agree with the care which the women take in ornamenting themselves, or with their vanity. Burchell* gives an amusing account of a bush-woman who used as much grease, red ochre, and shining powder "as would have ruined any but a very rich husband." She displayed also "much vanity and too evident a consciousness of her superiority." Mr. Winwood Reade informs me that the negroes of the west coast often discuss the beauty of their women. Some competent observers have attributed the fearfully common practice of infanticide partly to the desire felt by the women to retain their good looks.*(2) In several regions the women wear charms and use love-philters to gain the affections of the men; and Mr. Brown enumerates four plants used for this purpose by the women of north-western America.*(3)
* Travels in South Africa, 1824, vol. i.. p. 414.
*(2) See, for references, Gerland, Uber das Aussterben der Naturvolker, 1868, ss. 51, 53, 55; also Azara, Voyages, &c., tom. ii., p. 116.
*(3) On the vegetable productions used by the north-western American Indians, see Pharmaceutical Journal, vol. x.
Hearne,* an excellent observer, who lived many years with the American Indians, says, in speaking of the women, "Ask a northern Indian what is beauty, and he will answer, a broad flat face, small eyes, high cheek-bones, three or four broad black lines across each cheek, a low forehead, a large broad chin, a clumsy hook nose, a tawny hide, and breasts hanging down to the belt." Pallas, who visited the northern parts of the Chinese empire, says, "those women are preferred who have the Mandschu form; that is to say, a broad face, high cheek-bones, very broad noses, and enormous ears";*(2) and Vogt remarks that the obliquity of the eye, which is proper to the Chinese and Japanese, is exaggerated in their pictures for the purpose, as it "seems, of exhibiting its beauty, as contrasted with the eye of the red-haired barbarians." It is well known, as Huc repeatedly remarks, that the Chinese of the interior think Europeans hideous, with their white skins and prominent noses. The nose is far from being too prominent, according to our ideas, in the natives of Ceylon; yet "the Chinese in the seventh century, accustomed to the flat features of the Mongol races, were surprised at the prominent noses of the Cingalese; and Thsang described them as having 'the beak of a bird, with the body of a man.'"
* A Journey from Prince of Wales Fort, 8vo. ed., 1796, p. 89.
*(2) Quoted by Prichard, Physical History of Mankind, 3rd ed., vol. iv., 1844, p. 519; Vogt, Lectures on Man, Eng. translat., p. 129. On the opinion of the Chinese on the Cingalese, E. Tennent, Ceylon, 1859, vol. ii., p. 107.
Finlayson, after minutely describing the people of Cochin China, says that their rounded heads and faces are their chief characteristics; and, he adds, "the roundness of the whole countenance is more striking in the women, who are reckoned beautiful in proportion as they display this form of face." The Siamese have small noses with divergent nostrils, a wide mouth, rather thick lips, a remarkably large face, with very high and broad cheek-bones. It is, therefore, not wonderful that "beauty, according to our notion, is a stranger to them. Yet they consider their own females to be much more beautiful than those of Europe."*
* Prichard, as taken from Crawfurd and Finlayson, Phys. Hist. of Mankind, vol. iv., pp. 534, 535.
It is well known that with many Hottentot women the posterior part of the body projects in a wonderful manner; they are steatopygous; and Sir Andrew Smith is certain that this peculiarity is greatly admired by the men.* He once saw a woman who was considered a beauty, and she was so immensely developed behind, that when seated on level ground she could not rise, and had to push herself along until she came to a slope. Some of the women in various negro tribes have the same peculiarity; and, according to Burton, the Somal men are said to choose their wives by ranging them in a line, and by picking her out who projects farthest a tergo. Nothing can be more hateful to a negro than the opposite form."*(2)
* Idem illustrissimus viator dixit mihi praecinctorium vel tabulam foeminae, quod nobis teterrimum est, quondam permagno aestimari ab hominibus in hac gente. Nunc res mutata est, et censent talem conformationem minime optandam esse.
*(2) The Anthropological Review, November, 1864, p. 237. For additional references, see Waitz, Introduction to Anthropology, Eng. translat., 1863, vol. i., p. 105.
With respect to colour, the negroes rallied Mungo Park on the whiteness of his skin and the prominence of his nose, both of which they considered as "unsightly and unnatural conformations." He in return praised the glossy jet of their skins and the lovely depression of their noses; this they said was "honeymouth," nevertheless they gave him food. The African Moors, also, "knitted their brows and seemed to shudder" at the whiteness of his skin. On the eastern coast, the negro boys when they saw Burton, cried out, "Look at the white man; does he not look like a white ape?" On the western coast, as Mr. Winwood Reade informs me, the negroes admire a very black skin more than one of a lighter tint. But their horror of whiteness may be attributed, according to this same traveller, partly to the belief held by most negroes that demons and spirits are white, and partly to their thinking it a sign of ill-health.
The Banyai of the more southern part of the continent are negroes, but "a great many of them are of a light coffee-and-milk colour, and, indeed, this colour is considered handsome throughout the whole country"; so that here we have a different standard of taste. With the Kaffirs, who differ much from negroes, "the skin, except among the tribes near Delagoa Bay, is not usually black, the prevailing colour being a mixture of black and red, the most common shade being chocolate. Dark complexions, as being most common, are naturally held in the highest esteem. To be told that he is light-coloured, or like a white man, would be deemed a very poor compliment by a Kaffir. I have heard of one unfortunate man who was so very fair that no girl would marry him." One of the titles of the Zulu king is, "You who are black."* Mr. Galton, in speaking to me about the natives of S. Africa, remarked that their ideas of beauty seem very different from ours; for in one tribe two slim, slight, and pretty girls were not admired by the natives.
* Mungo Park's Travels in Africa 4to., 1816, pp. 53, 131. Burton's statement is quoted by Schaaffhausen, Archiv. fur Anthropologie, 1866, s. 163. On the Banyai, Livingstone, Travels, p. 64. On the Kaffirs, the Rev. J. Shooter, The Kafirs of Natal and the Zulu Country, 1857, p. 1.
Turning to other quarters of the world; in Java, a yellow, not a white girl, is considered, according to Madame Pfeiffer, a beauty. A man of Cochin China "spoke with contempt of the wife of the English Ambassador, that she had white teeth like a dog, and a rosy colour like that of potato-flowers." We have seen that the Chinese dislike our white skin, and that the N. Americans admire "a tawny hide." In S. America, the Yuracaras, who inhabit the wooded, damp slopes of the eastern Cordillera, are remarkably pale-coloured, as their name in their own language expresses; nevertheless they consider European women as very inferior to their own.*
* For the Javans and Cochin-Chinese, see Waitz, Introduct. to Anthropology, Eng. translat., vol. i., p. 305. On the Yuracaras, A. d'Orbigny, as quoted in Prichard, Physical History of Mankind, vol. v., 3rd ed., p. 476.
In several of the tribes of North America the hair on the head grows to a wonderful length; and Catlin gives a curious proof how much this is esteemed, for the chief of the Crows was elected to this office from having the longest hair of any man in the tribe, namely ten feet and seven inches. The Aymaras and Quechuas of S. America, likewise have very long hair; and this, as Mr. D. Forbes informs me, is so much valued as a beauty, that cutting it off was the severest punishment which he could inflict on them. In both the northern and southern halves of the continent the natives sometimes increase the apparent length of their hair by weaving into it fibrous substances. Although the hair on the head is thus cherished, that on the face is considered by the North American Indians "as very vulgar," and every hair is carefully eradicated. This practice prevails throughout the American continent from Vancouver's Island in the north to Tierra del Fuego in the south. When York Minster, a Fuegian on board the Beagle, was taken back to his country, the natives told him be ought to pull out the few short hairs on his face. They also threatened a young missionary, who was left for a time with them, to strip him naked, and pluck the hair from his face and body, yet he was far from being a hairy man. This fashion is carried so far that the Indians of Paraguay eradicate their eyebrows and eyelashes, saying that they do not wish to be like horses.*
* North American Indians, by G. Catlin, 3rd ed., 1842, vol. i., p. 49; vol. ii, p. 227. On the natives of Vancouver's Island, see Sproat, Scenes and Studies of Savage Life, 1868, p. 25. On the Indians of Paraguay, Azara, Voyages, tom. ii., p. 105.
It is remarkable that throughout the world the races which are almost completely destitute of a beard dislike hairs on the face and body, and take pains to eradicate them. The Kalmucks are beardless, and they are well known, like the Americans, to pluck out all straggling hairs; and so it is with the Polynesians, some of the Malays, and the Siamese. Mr. Veitch states that the Japanese ladies "all objected to our whiskers, considering them very ugly, and told us to cut them off, and be like Japanese men." The New Zealanders have short, curled beards; yet they formerly plucked out the hairs on the face. They had a saying that "there is no woman for a hairy man"; but it would appear that the fashion has changed in New Zealand, perhaps owing to the presence of Europeans, and I am assured that beards are now admired by the Maories.*
* On the Siamese, Prichard, ibid., vol. iv., p. 533. On the Japanese, Veitch in Gardeners' Chronicle, 1860, p. 1104. On the New Zealanders, Mantegazza, Viaggi e Studi, 1867, p. 526. For the other nations mentioned, see references in Lawrence, Lectures on Physiology, &c., 1822, p. 272.
On the other hand, bearded races admire and greatly value their beards; among the Anglo-Saxons every part of the body had a recognised value; "the loss of the beard being estimated at twenty shillings, while the breaking of a thigh was fixed at only twelve."* In the East men swear solemnly by their beards. We have seen that Chinsurdi, the chief of the Makalolo in Africa, thought that beards were a great ornament. In the Pacific the Fijian's beard is "profuse and bushy, and is his greatest pride"; whilst the inhabitants of the adjacent archipelagoes of Tonga and Samoa are "beardless, and abhor a rough chin." In one island alone of the Ellice group "the men are heavily bearded, and not a little proud thereof."*(2)
* Lubbock, Origin of Civilisation, 1870, p. 321.
*(2) Dr. Barnard Davis quotes Mr. Prichard and others for these facts in regard to the Polynesians, in Anthropolog. Review, April, 1870, pp. 185, 191.
We thus see how widely the different races of man differ in their taste for the beautiful. In every nation sufficiently advanced to have made effigies of their gods or of their deified rulers, the sculptors no doubt have endeavoured to express their highest ideal of beauty and grandeur.* Under this point of view it is well to compare in our mind the Jupiter or Apollo of the Greeks with the Egyptian or Assyrian statues; and these with the hideous bas-reliefs on the ruined buildings of Central America.
* Ch. Comte has remarks to this effect in his Traite de Legislation, 3rd ed., 1837, p. 136.
I have met with very few statements opposed to this conclusion. Mr. Winwood Reade, however, who has had ample opportunities for observation, not only with the negroes of the west coast of Africa, but with those of the interior who have never associated with Europeans, is convinced that their ideas of beauty are on the whole the same as ours; and Dr. Rohlfs writes to me to the same effect with respect to Bornu and the countries inhabited by the Pullo tribes. Mr. Reade found that he agreed with the negroes in their estimation of the beauty of the native girls; and that their appreciation of the beauty of European women corresponded with ours. They admire long hair, and use artificial means to make it appear abundant; they admire also a beard, though themselves very scantily provided. Mr. Reade feels doubtful what kind of nose is most appreciated; a girl has been heard to say, "I do not want to marry him, he has got no nose"; and this shows that a very flat nose is not admired. We should, however, bear in mind that the depressed, broad noses and projecting jaws of the negroes of the west coast are exceptional types with the inhabitants of Africa. Notwithstanding the foregoing statements, Mr. Reade admits that negroes "do not like the colour of our skin; they look on blue eyes with aversion, and they think our noses too long and our lips too thin." He does not think it probable that negroes would ever prefer the most beautiful European woman, on the mere grounds of physical admiration, to a good-looking negress.*
* The African Sketch Book, vol. ii., 1873, pp. 253, 394, 521. The Fuegians, as I have been informed by a missionary who long resided with them, consider European women as extremely beautiful; but from what we have seen of the judgment of the other aborigines of America, I cannot but think that this must be a mistake, unless indeed the statement refers to the few Fuegians who have lived for some time with Europeans, and who must consider us as superior beings. I should add that a most experienced observer, Capt. Burton, believes that a woman whom we consider beautiful is admired throughout the world. Anthropological Review, March, 1864, p. 245.
The general truth of the principle, long ago insisted on by Humboldt,* that man admires and often tries to exaggerate whatever characters nature may have given him, is shown in many ways. The practice of beardless races extirpating every trace of a beard, and often all the hairs on the body affords one illustration. The skull has been greatly modified during ancient and modern times by many nations; and there can be little doubt that this has been practised, especially in N. and S. America, in order to exaggerate some natural and admired peculiarity. Many American Indians are known to admire a head so extremely flattened as to appear to us idiotic. The natives on the northwestern coast compress the head into a pointed cone; and it is their constant practice to gather the hair into a knot on the top of the head, for the sake, as Dr. Wilson remarks, "of increasing the apparent elevation of the favourite conoid form." The inhabitants of Arakhan admire a broad, smooth forehead, and in order to produce it, they fasten a plate of lead on the heads of the new-born children. On the other hand, "a broad, well-rounded occiput is considered a great beauty" by the natives of the Fiji Islands.*(2)
* Personal Narrative, Eng. translat., vol. iv., p. 518, and elsewhere. Mantegazza, in his Viaggi e Studi, strongly insists on this same principle.
*(2) On the skulls of the American tribes, see Nott and Gliddon, Types of Mankind, 1854, p. 440; Prichard, Physical History of Mankind, vol. i., 3rd ed., p. 321; on the natives of Arakhan, ibid., vol. iv., p. 537. Wilson, Physical Ethnology, Smithsonian Institution, 1863, p. 288; on the Fijians, p. 290. Sir J. Lubbock (Prehistoric Times, 2nd ed., 1869, p. 506) gives an excellent resume on this subject.
As with the skull, so with the nose; the ancient Huns during the age of Attila were accustomed to flatten the noses of their infants with bandages, "for the sake of exaggerating a natural conformation." With the Tahitians, to be called long-nose is considered as an insult, and they compress the noses and foreheads of their children for the sake of beauty. The same holds with the Malays of Sumatra, the Hottentots, certain Negroes, and the natives of Brazil.* The Chinese have by nature unusually small feet;*(2) and it is well known that the women of the upper classes distort their feet to make them still smaller. Lastly, Humboldt thinks that the American Indians prefer colouring their bodies with red paint in order to exaggerate their natural tint; and until recently European women added to their naturally bright colours by rouge and white cosmetics; but it may be doubted whether barbarous nations have generally had any such intention in painting themselves.
* On the Huns, Godron, De l'Espece, tom. ii., 1859, p. 300. On the Tahitians, Waitz, Anthropology, Eng. translat., vol. i., p. 305. Marsden, quoted by Prichard, Phys. Hist. of Mankind, 3rd edit., vol. v., p. 67. Lawrence, Lectures on Physiology, p. 337.
*(2) This fact was ascertained in the Reise der Novara: Anthropolog. Theil., Dr. Weisbach, 1867, s. 265.
In the fashions of our own dress we see exactly the same principle and the same desire to carry every point to an extreme; we exhibit, also, the same spirit of emulation. But the fashions of savages are far more permanent than ours; and whenever their bodies are artificially modified, this is necessarily the case. The Arab women of the Upper Nile occupy about three days in dressing their hair; they never imitate other tribes, "but simply vie with each other in the superlativeness of their own style." Dr. Wilson, in speaking of the compressed skulls of various American races, adds, "such usages are among the least eradicable, and long survive the shock of revolutions that change dynasties and efface more important national peculiarities."* The same principle comes into play in the art of breeding; and we can thus understand, as I have elsewhere explained,*(2) the wonderful development of the many races of animals and plants, which have been kept merely for ornament. Fanciers always wish each character to be somewhat increased; they do not admire a medium standard; they certainly do not desire any great and abrupt change in the character of their breeds; they admire solely what they are accustomed to, but they ardently desire to see each characteristic feature a little more developed.
* Smithsonian Institution, 1863, p. 289. On the fashions of Arab women, Sir S. Baker, The Nile Tributaries, 1867, p. 121.
*(2) The Variation of Animals and Plants under Domestication, vol. i., p. 214; vol. ii., p. 240.
The senses of man and of the lower animals seem to be so constituted that brilliant colours and certain forms, as well as harmonious and rhythmical sounds, give pleasure and are called beautiful; but why this should be so we know not. It is certainly not true that there is in the mind of man any universal standard of beauty with respect to the human body. It is, however, possible that certain tastes may in the course of time become inherited, though there is no evidence in favour of this belief: and if so, each race would possess its own innate ideal standard of beauty. It has been argued* that ugliness consists in an approach to the structure of the lower animals, and no doubt this is partly true with the more civilised nations, in which intellect is highly appreciated; but this explanation will hardly apply to all forms of ugliness. The men of each race prefer what they are accustomed to; they cannot endure any great change; but they like variety, and admire each characteristic carried to a moderate extreme.*(2) Men accustomed to a nearly oval face, to straight and regular features, and to bright colours, admire, as we Europeans know, these points when strongly developed. On the other hand, men accustomed to a broad face, with high cheek-bones, a depressed nose, and a black skin, admire these peculiarities when strongly marked. No doubt characters of all kinds may be too much developed for beauty. Hence a perfect beauty, which implies many characters modified in a particular manner, will be in every race a prodigy. As the great anatomist Bichat long ago said, if every one were cast in the same mould, there would be no such thing as beauty. If all our women were to become as beautiful as the Venus de' Medici, we should for a time be charmed; but we should soon wish for variety; and as soon as we had obtained variety, we should wish to see certain characters a little exaggerated beyond the then existing common standard.
* Schaaffhausen, Archiv. fur Anthropologie, 1866, s. 164.
*(2) Mr. Bain has collected (Mental and Moral Science, 1868, pp. 304-314) about a dozen more or less different theories of the idea of beauty; but none is quite the same as that here given."
I think I'll be taking leave here for now, since Emily has pretty much devolved into spewing the same tired bile over and over. I'll leave it at this, Emily- you're genuinely sick in the head. You are FUCKED UP. Please, for the love of god, learn to develop some intellectual honesty and empathy for once in your life.
My brother married a symmetrical asian. I live in a city with a lot of Koreans, by and large they are pretty symmetrical. Asymmetry is not the norm for them.
I would never wish for Jake's non-existance whoever he is. I'm sure he is valuable person, just as every person is. I make fun of him but who knows why Jake is the way he is. He may have been conditioned to think this way. He might have insecurities. He might really just think that black people are primitive.
Either way he deserves to exist. What makes me sad is the fact that he is blind to bigger picture. He is in his own little bubble in his own little world, nice and safe but the world isn't nice and safe.
WHAT THE FUCK! Are you a joke? This is fucking hilarious! Those are your reasons as to why Africans are primitive? Go learn something if you are actually going to claim Africans are primitive and practically sub-human. You sound like an idiot.
You are always going to sound like an idiot, but at least try to sound like an educated idiot. Like Emily.
It's just strange how bigoted people can be and still consider themselves not racists.
I work as a promotional model (yes I am a model) and I was signing some local people as members for a Hospital Foundation trust and raising awareness for social issues in that area.
Some of the people (and they were white) wouldn't fill in the box that said race, black, asian, mixed. They said they do not believe in Race and never fill that box even for job applications.
I guess it goes to show that not everyone thinks the way Jake the racist thinks.
In that case Hitler wasn't a racist either, neither was KKK and other murderers that existed in history.
You're not a racist, just a MONSTER and I wonder why you even exist.
BTW I am not african, I am only too ashamed to admit I am a married white woman, I just have a more broader, informed and educated outlook than you do.
Hi, is a person named erik the manager of this site? i just wanted to know what the aim of this site was? is it to let women who do not have supermodel-esque features realise their own beauty by comdemming models? if that's the case then you should let women understand that even though society perceives models like gisele and heidi to be beautiful and sexy, regular women are beautiful in their own right as well... instead, all i've noticed is that u have brushed of these models looks as ugly and non-sexy and have used glamour models to show what true beauty is. is that your aim? to show R-rated models as the real beauties of this world? u may think that i'm a supporter or great fan of high fashion models and such. but that is not the case. I just feel that if u wanted to rid women of the idea that only high fashion models are beautiful, then u have done that. but only because u have replaced it with your opinion that only glamour models are sexy and beautiful, since all your comparisons were between high fashion models and glamour models. I would also like to ask you, what about women who do have high fashion model features? are you saying these women are hideous and will never have - what u like to call - 'life time exclusive' partners? i happen to be someone who has a prominent jaw line, robust cheekbones, small pelvis and many other masculine features.. i am very slender and tall as well, but i'm not a model. are you saying that i look horrible?
I also think maybe you are being too hard on yourself.
Personally,i dont think most people on this planet are ugly.There are average people and also some that are very blessed aesthetically plus everything in between, but its very rare that i would see a person that i would actually class a "ugly"
"...whereas similarities can often be seen today in other races, I think"
Yep negros :-) A lot of black people look like they are around 5 centuries behind in catching up to modern man. The evidence is there:-
Facial features
The hair
The long orangutan arms
Hopping while walking
Uncivilised
Shouting instead of talking
Countless children
Double parking and holding up traffic
No regard for human life
Love of chicken
Love of watermelon
and many more.
I am NOT a racist but the above facts makes you think that I do have a point. Obviously not all are like that but the majority of them are. Thank god they have the power of speech otherwise we humans may have thrown them in the cage at the zoo along with the apes and the chimps!
38-26-38, I am certainly not in possession of light bone structure. I'm not overweight at least (i"m 5'7 and 133). Most Americans are these days (ever seen peopleofwalmart.com). Kinda scary. Nor am I in possession of light coloring (beyond pale olive skin) since i'm a brown eyed, brunette. I am well-aware I am not what most people consider attractive. It doesn't bother me. Life goes on either way. I was a bartender for a few years before I was finally able to just get into music. I found most attractive women have husbands who are getting some outside of the home anyway. Most of the time the "other woman" in question was not attractive by most standards. The question at hand is emotional need. These women tended to fill an emotional need. Outward Attractiveness is a need of most men but not all. Most men don't rate it nearly as high as sex or most of their other needs for that matter. Furthermore most people on this planet are ugly. It's the law of averages you know. I doubt most men are going to be picky when they aren't exactly the cream of the crop themselves. I am not stating my husband is ugly. He's actually a blonde, blue eyed nordic looking thing Emily loves to screech about. He's just not an alpha male. that's fine, cause I'm not an alpha female.
I don't know how attractive or unattractive you are, but you just seem like the kind of person that is a tad bit too hard on yourself! It is important for us to understand our shortcomings so we can do what we can with them. I am imperfect and I can recognize my flaws, and I think it is important for us to recognize our flaws so that we can do whatever we can to the best of our abilities to change them or improve them or hey, just live with them.
The thing is I doubt you are "unattractive". Maybe you just haven't realized your potential yet. Besides, acne doesn't have that much to do with bone structure. Just because you have acne doesn't automatically make you uanttractive jesus!
Besides your personality is very attractive:) I think you are intelligent and clever.
There's a lot more to human relationships than looks. You can't live with someone just because you think they are pretty. Many studies have also shown familiarity tends to increase one's standing as far as beauty goes. Personality traits tend to be more important in the long run.
It is actually interesting that you called yourself ugly (I believe that you may be exaggerating thou) yet you said you are happily married. Interesting indeed because all of those women Emily says are “pretty” because they possess Nordic features are usually the ones who end up single until late in their thirties then to end up with an guy that dumps them a couple of years later for an ethnic woman and/or a brunette.
Emily’s beliefs stem more from personal frustration than from looking objectively at the facts. Perhaps, a guy she liked, was dating or married to dumped her for an Asian woman (seems that is the particular race she likes to attack). The truth is that I do have the features that Emily says are considered beautiful (blonde hair, green eyes, facial bone structure, physically fit etc, etc), however I do not consider myself superior or more beautiful than other races because of it. After all if that would have been the case every other woman would be single and only myself and other blondes would be the ones getting all the guys.
Congratulations on your great figure godis, and excuse my spelling...I'm sure not such an idiot that you think I use "Barberella" on a regular basis! Fool, still....how sad, no progress, I'd be more worried about THAT than how I spell shit on here, asshole.
Cecilia and callmewhatyouwant,
VC is now resorting to insulting the intelligence of those whom English isn't their first language though gods know what that has to do with anything...And of course, Cecilia, this is typical of godis to think that anyone who agrees with Emily MUST BE EMILY, since she's resorted to inventing alter egos (due to a malfunction in her distorted perceptions) so therefore, everyone else does as well...
Godis,
Hmmm....can't understand how or why Emily shows pics of Romanian women because she doesn't like you personally, do you really think the sun shines out of your ass, or what? It's all about you..I'd almost forgot. You, ALWAYS being the (cough cough) better person have never made fun of Scandinavians because YOU don't like her personally. When I read that, I laughed and laughed, thank you for continuing to supply my "joke of the day", you can never have too many.
So, guess some things never change, anyone who appreciated Nordic beauty is a Nordic fetishist, real cool argument, and so smart. It makes me a think that maybe everyone else here has no more valid points to make. Guess "Nordic Fetishist!" is the best anyone can do. Sad.
This thread is about the beauty of the VERY sought after Nordic nose and yet you all post pics and make absurd arguments against this theory though none of you have yet to prove it to be false.
Emily continues to show how this is true, and sorry but it is, to a lot of people.
Oh no!! I'm defending her again, such a terrible person I am, it's a good thing I could care less what you all think.
"A heavy set, badly dressed and acne-faced women is hideous no matter what ethnicity she is from"
While I agree with many of the points you've made your digs at acne are pretty ill informed. I've had it for the last ten years. I wash my face three times a day. Grooming has little to do with it.
I am ugly though. I admit that, I own it, I don't fucking care about it. I ended up getting married and regularly laid anyway. I'm an artist too, go fucking figure. Ugly people do get somewhere in life.
Me stating that i think SOME Asians are beautiful doesnt automatically make it by default that i believe that the MAJORITY of Caucasians are beautiful.Your simply reading into things that arn't there.
If i stated that SOME Caucasian are beautiful would you automatically assume that that meant i thought the MAJORITY of Asians are beautiful?
I said some,becuase if we all be honest,some people are more attractive and some arnt as classically attractive but have other great qualities and that goes for every race.
The Swedish people might have got their Asiatic look via the Finns and the Baltics. In North India many people do have European features, most probaly via the Greeks. There is a history that suggest that too.
Hey Visitor,
Thanks! People actually notice eyebrows? :D
Are you Godis by any chance?
So would you say that my forehead is small then? or normal?
Also i must say i have to disagree with you saying that Swedish people have Asiatic ancestry/mixing at large. I mean we are all humans so there is overlap in features. For example i am Indian (pure lol) but some of my features are more European which doesn't mean i have had any European mixing. See for yourself.
VC called the lot of them morons because they have brought no factual arguments to the debate. They just spew nationalist bile. Bring some data to the table if you want to prove a point. All the numbers I have seen show most people who have plastic surgery are in fact White. The United States is the world-wide leader in cosmetic surgery with about 12 million surgeries performed in 2007 alone. The U.S. is a White majority country. We can probably safely assume most of those getting these procedures are white. More minorities are getting work done but by and large minorities in this country tend to not be in the economic position to do so. Europe (land of the perfect white woman lol) comes in second with about 2.2 billion in sales annually. Quite a bit lower than the U.S. Iran isn't even in the top ten. I don't think most Iranian women are running out to get their nose fixed.
Hi Eric, the measure of symmetry in faces and how well the phi mask fits a face, is completely different to the degree of feminisation/masculisation of the face. The latter signals the fertility of the man or woman and their hormone levels.
...Although, symmetrical humans are also displaying high reproductive value, (I believe that to divide perfectly, you would have to have had higher ability to fend off disease etc while developing.)so humans also strongly favour symmetrical mates.
Your face can fit the phi mask, but not be super feminine (catwalk models are aethetically very beautiful, but out of place in a men's magazine), and you can have a very feminine face and not fit the mask
You can also be both; Angelina Joile and Jessica Simpson both fit the mask and are very feminine. The two things are seperate IMO.
This thread is absolutely amazing. It gets no replies for over a year, and some of the first ones was a barrage of spam of Emily repeating the garbage she's been saying here for a year as well.
I mean my god, it immediately started with an attack on romanians. Even though the whole point of this essay was how it was inaccurate to perscribe this "beauty mask" as an ideal of human beauty. This critique was PUBLISHED IN A PEER REVIEWED JOURNAL. But Emily BLATANTLY IGNORED THAT. And found the need to inject some white nationalist politics into it.
I can't comment on Jane Butler's critique at the moment, but the whole point of what Erik is saying is how it's greatest fault is that it represents masculine women.
Back to Emily, though, I love this. She seems to turn almost ANY article on here into some race related. I won't be surprised if this little sociopath turns every discussion on here into something race related. And she's still repeating that flat out retarded claim of attractive asians having white ancestry.
I also like how nearly all of her photobucket images aren't showing up properly. I also wouldn't be surprised if she'd labor a few hours to re-upload all of her images shes spammed dozens of times before, to do it again.
In regards to the issue at hand here, facial symmetry seems to be quite overrated: http://dienekes.50webs.com/blog/archives/000304.html
"The results of our symmetry experiments show a clear but only weak relationship between facial attractiveness and symmetry: very asymmetrical faces are rated unattractive, but unattractive faces don't need to be asymmetrical. Vice versa, very symmetrical faces don't need to be very attractive, and very attractive faces may show remarkable deviations from ideally symmetrical proportions. In summary, symmetry seems only to be a weak factor to explain facial attractiveness."
Then again, facial symmetry varies strongly from individual to individual, and it's dependent on a whole host of factors, like lip size, nose structure, face size etc. Considering how jaw and cheekbone size is purely relative to femininity and masculinity, and is also related to another aspect of symmetry, body-head size, which is detailed on this site, it's thus inaccurate to say that features relating to european norms of smaller jaws and cheekbones and narrower faces are universally idealized- all facial types are prone to extremities, and certain jaw and cheekbone sizes are more prone as well.
But Erik barely addresses much of this. He's of the mindset that jaw and cheekbone size are correlates of femininity.
Apollyon is thankfully rather open-minded, but quite misguided, and is abit too sympathetic to Emily's arguments. I reccomend you read my arguments on other discussions, like the "fine, chiseled nordic nose" entry.
For closing, I leave this full deliniation of quotes from one of Charles Darwin's books, in regards to human beauty. While I've said before why some of these are suspect, they show a general trend and are very worthy of consideration:
"The Influence of Beauty in determining the Marriages of Mankind.- In civilised life man is largely, but by no means exclusively, influenced in the choice of his wife by external appearance; but we are chiefly concerned with primeval times, and our only means of forming a judgment on this subject is to study the habits of existing semi-civilised and savage nations. If it can be shewn that the men of different races prefer women having various characteristics, or conversely with the women, we have then to enquire whether such choice, continued during many generations, would produce any sensible effect on the race, either on one sex or both according to the form of inheritance which has prevailed.
It will be well first to shew in some detail that savages pay the greatest attention to their personal appearance.* That they have a passion for ornament is notorious; and an English philosopher goes so far as to maintain that clothes were first made for ornament and not for warmth. As Professor Waitz remarks, "however poor and miserable man is, he finds a pleasure in adorning himself." The extravagance of the naked Indians of South America in decorating themselves is shewn "by a man of large stature gaining with difficulty enough by the labour of a fortnight to procure in exchange the chica necessary to paint himself red."*(2) The ancient barbarians of Europe during the Reindeer period brought to their caves any brilliant or singular objects which they happened to find. Savages at the present day everywhere deck themselves with plumes, necklaces, armlets, ear-rings, &c. They paint themselves in the most diversified manner. "If painted nations," as Humboldt observes, "had been examined with the same attention as clothed nations, it would have been perceived that the most fertile imagination and the most mutable caprice have created the fashions of painting, as well as those of garments."
* A full and excellent account of the manner in which savages in all parts of the world ornament themselves, is given by the Italian traveller, Professor Mantegazza, Rio de la Plata, Viaggi e Studi, 1867, pp. 525-545; all the following statements, when other references are not given, are taken from this work. See, also, Waitz, Introduction to Anthropology, Eng. translat., vol. i., 1863, p. 275, et passim. Lawrence also gives very full details in his Lectures on Physiology, 1822. Since this chapter was written Sir J. Lubbock has published his Origin of Civilisation, 1870, in which there is an interesting chapter on the present subject, and from which (pp. 42, 48) I have taken some facts about savages dyeing their teeth and hair, and piercing their teeth.
*(2) Humboldt, Personal Narrative, Eng. translat., vol. iv., p. 515; on the imagination shewn in painting the body, p. 522; on modifying the form of the calf of the leg, p. 466.
In one part of Africa the eyelids are coloured black; in another the nails are coloured yellow or purple. In many places the hair is dyed of various tints. In different countries the teeth are stained black, red, blue, &c., and in the Malay Archipelago it is thought shameful to have white teeth "like those of a dog." Not one great country can be named, from the polar regions in the north to New Zealand in the south, in which the aborigines do not tattoo themselves. This practice was followed by the Jews of old, and by the ancient Britons. In Africa some of the natives tattoo themselves, but it is a much more common practice to raise protuberances by rubbing salt into incisions made in various parts of the body; and these are considered by the inhabitants of Kordofan and Darfur "to be great personal attractions." In the Arab countries no beauty can be perfect until the cheeks "or temples have been gashed."* In South America, as Humboldt remarks, "a mother would be accused of culpable indifference towards her children, if she did not employ artificial means to shape the calf of the leg after the fashion of the country." In the Old and New Worlds the shape of the skull was formerly modified during infancy in the most extraordinary manner, as is still the case in many places, and such deformities are considered ornamental. For instance, the savages of Colombia*(2) deem a much flattened head "an essential point of beauty."
* The Nile Tributaries, 1867; The Albert N'yanza, 1866, vol. i., p. 218.
*(2) Quoted by Prichard, Physical History of Mankind, 4th ed., vol. i., 1851, p. 321.
The hair is treated with especial care in various countries; it is allowed to grow to full length, so as to reach to the ground, or is combed into "a compact frizzled mop, which is the Papuan's pride and glory."* In northern Africa "a man requires a period of from eight to ten years to perfect his coiffure." With other nations the head is shaved, and in parts of South America and Africa even the eyebrows and eyelashes are eradicated. The natives of the Upper Nile knock out the four front teeth, saying that they do not wish to resemble brutes. Further south, the Bakotas knock out only the two upper incisors, which, as Livingstone*(2) remarks, gives the face a hideous appearance, owing to the prominence of the lower jaw; but these people think the presence of the incisors most unsightly, and on beholding some Europeans, cried out, "Look at the great teeth!" The chief Sebituani tried in vain to alter this fashion. In various parts of Africa and in the Malay Archipelago the natives file the incisors into points like those of a saw, or pierce them with holes, into which they insert studs.
* On the Papuans, Wallace, The Malay Archipelago, vol. ii., p. 445. On the coiffure of the Africans, Sir S. Baker, The Albert N'yanza, vol. i., p. 210.
*(2) Travels, p. 533.
As the face with us is chiefly admired for its beauty, so with savages it is the chief seat of mutilation. In all quarters of the world the septum, and more rarely the wings of the nose are pierced; rings, sticks, feathers, and other ornaments being inserted into the boles. The ears are everywhere piereed and similarly ornamented, and with the Botocudos and Lenguas of South America the hole is gradually so much enlarged that the lower edge touches the shoulder. In North and South America and in Africa either the upper or lower lip is pierced; and with the Botocudos the hole in the lower lip is so large that a disc of wood, four inches in diameter, is placed in it. Mantegazza gives a curious account of the shame felt by a South American native, and of the ridicule which he excited, when he sold his tembeta,- the large coloured piece of wood which is passed through the hole. In central Africa the women perforate the lower lip and wear a crystal, which, from the movement of the tongue, has "a wriggling motion, indescribably ludicrous during conversation." The wife of the chief of Latooka told Sir S. Baker* that Lady Baker "would be much improved if she would extract her four front teeth from the lower jaw, and wear the long pointed polished crystal in her under lip." Further south with the Makalolo, the upper lip is perforated, and a large metal and bamboo ring, called a pelele, is worn in the hole. "This caused the lip in one case to project two inches beyond the tip of the nose; and when the lady smiled, the contraction of the muscles elevated it over her eyes. 'Why do the women wear these things?' the venerable chief, Chinsurdi, was asked. Evidently surprised at such a stupid question, he replied, 'For beauty! They are the only beautiful things women have; men have beards, women have none. What kind of a person would she be without the pelele? She would not be a woman at all with a mouth like a man, but no beard.'"*(2)
* The Albert N'Yanza, 1866, vol. i., p. 217.
*(2) Livingstone, British Association, 1860; report given in the Athenaeum, July 7, 1860, p. 29.
Hardly any part of the body, which can be unnaturally modified, has escaped. The amount of suffering thus caused must have been extreme, for many of the operations require several years for their completion, so that the idea of their necessity must be imperative. The motives are various; the men paint their bodies to make themselves appear terrible in battle; certain mutilations are connected with religious rites, or they mark the age of puberty, or the rank of the man, or they serve to distinguish the tribes. Amongst savages the same fashions prevail for long periods,* and thus mutilations, from whatever cause first made, soon come to be valued as distinctive marks. But self-adornment, vanity, and the admiration of others, seem to be the commonest motives. In regard to tattooing, I was told by the missionaries in New Zealand that when they tried to persuade some girls to give up the practice, they answered, "We must just have a few lines on our lips; else when we grow old we shall be so very ugly." With the men of New Zealand, a most capable judge*(2) says, "to have fine tattooed faces was the great ambition of the young, both to render themselves attractive to the ladies, and conspicuous in war." A star tattooed on the forehead and a spot on the chin are thought by the women in one part of Africa to be irresistible attractions.*(3) In most, but not all parts of the world, the men are more ornamented than the women and often in a different manner; sometimes, though rarely, the women are hardly at all ornamented. As the women are made by savages to perform the greatest share of the work, and as they are not allowed to eat the best kinds of food, so it accords with the characteristic selfishness of man that they should not be allowed to obtain, or use the finest ornaments. Lastly, it is a remarkable fact, as proved by the foregoing quotations, that the same fashions in modifying the shape of the head, in ornamenting the hair, in painting, tattooing, in perforating the nose, lips, or ears, in removing or filing the teeth, &c., now prevail, and have long prevailed, in the most distant quarters of the world. It is extremely improbable that these practices, followed by so many distinct nations, should be due to tradition from any common source. They indicate the close similarity of the mind of man, to whatever race he may belong, just as do the almost universal habits of dancing, masquerading, and making rude pictures.
* Sir S. Baker (ibid., vol. i., p. 210) speaking of the natives of central Africa says, "Every tribe has a distinct and unchanging fashion for dressing the hair." See Agassiz (Journey in Brazil, 1868, p. 318) on invariability of the tattooing of Amazonian Indians.
*(2) Rev. R. Taylor, New Zealand and its Inhabitants, 1855, p. 152.
*(3) Mantegazza, Viaggi e Studi, p. 542.
Having made these preliminary remarks on the admiration felt by savages for various ornaments, and for deformities most unsightly in our eyes, let us see how far the men are attracted by the appearance of their women, and what are their ideas of beauty. I have heard it maintained that savages are quite indifferent about the beauty of their women, valuing them solely as slaves; it may therefore be well to observe that this conclusion does not at all agree with the care which the women take in ornamenting themselves, or with their vanity. Burchell* gives an amusing account of a bush-woman who used as much grease, red ochre, and shining powder "as would have ruined any but a very rich husband." She displayed also "much vanity and too evident a consciousness of her superiority." Mr. Winwood Reade informs me that the negroes of the west coast often discuss the beauty of their women. Some competent observers have attributed the fearfully common practice of infanticide partly to the desire felt by the women to retain their good looks.*(2) In several regions the women wear charms and use love-philters to gain the affections of the men; and Mr. Brown enumerates four plants used for this purpose by the women of north-western America.*(3)
* Travels in South Africa, 1824, vol. i.. p. 414.
*(2) See, for references, Gerland, Uber das Aussterben der Naturvolker, 1868, ss. 51, 53, 55; also Azara, Voyages, &c., tom. ii., p. 116.
*(3) On the vegetable productions used by the north-western American Indians, see Pharmaceutical Journal, vol. x.
Hearne,* an excellent observer, who lived many years with the American Indians, says, in speaking of the women, "Ask a northern Indian what is beauty, and he will answer, a broad flat face, small eyes, high cheek-bones, three or four broad black lines across each cheek, a low forehead, a large broad chin, a clumsy hook nose, a tawny hide, and breasts hanging down to the belt." Pallas, who visited the northern parts of the Chinese empire, says, "those women are preferred who have the Mandschu form; that is to say, a broad face, high cheek-bones, very broad noses, and enormous ears";*(2) and Vogt remarks that the obliquity of the eye, which is proper to the Chinese and Japanese, is exaggerated in their pictures for the purpose, as it "seems, of exhibiting its beauty, as contrasted with the eye of the red-haired barbarians." It is well known, as Huc repeatedly remarks, that the Chinese of the interior think Europeans hideous, with their white skins and prominent noses. The nose is far from being too prominent, according to our ideas, in the natives of Ceylon; yet "the Chinese in the seventh century, accustomed to the flat features of the Mongol races, were surprised at the prominent noses of the Cingalese; and Thsang described them as having 'the beak of a bird, with the body of a man.'"
* A Journey from Prince of Wales Fort, 8vo. ed., 1796, p. 89.
*(2) Quoted by Prichard, Physical History of Mankind, 3rd ed., vol. iv., 1844, p. 519; Vogt, Lectures on Man, Eng. translat., p. 129. On the opinion of the Chinese on the Cingalese, E. Tennent, Ceylon, 1859, vol. ii., p. 107.
Finlayson, after minutely describing the people of Cochin China, says that their rounded heads and faces are their chief characteristics; and, he adds, "the roundness of the whole countenance is more striking in the women, who are reckoned beautiful in proportion as they display this form of face." The Siamese have small noses with divergent nostrils, a wide mouth, rather thick lips, a remarkably large face, with very high and broad cheek-bones. It is, therefore, not wonderful that "beauty, according to our notion, is a stranger to them. Yet they consider their own females to be much more beautiful than those of Europe."*
* Prichard, as taken from Crawfurd and Finlayson, Phys. Hist. of Mankind, vol. iv., pp. 534, 535.
It is well known that with many Hottentot women the posterior part of the body projects in a wonderful manner; they are steatopygous; and Sir Andrew Smith is certain that this peculiarity is greatly admired by the men.* He once saw a woman who was considered a beauty, and she was so immensely developed behind, that when seated on level ground she could not rise, and had to push herself along until she came to a slope. Some of the women in various negro tribes have the same peculiarity; and, according to Burton, the Somal men are said to choose their wives by ranging them in a line, and by picking her out who projects farthest a tergo. Nothing can be more hateful to a negro than the opposite form."*(2)
* Idem illustrissimus viator dixit mihi praecinctorium vel tabulam foeminae, quod nobis teterrimum est, quondam permagno aestimari ab hominibus in hac gente. Nunc res mutata est, et censent talem conformationem minime optandam esse.
*(2) The Anthropological Review, November, 1864, p. 237. For additional references, see Waitz, Introduction to Anthropology, Eng. translat., 1863, vol. i., p. 105.
With respect to colour, the negroes rallied Mungo Park on the whiteness of his skin and the prominence of his nose, both of which they considered as "unsightly and unnatural conformations." He in return praised the glossy jet of their skins and the lovely depression of their noses; this they said was "honeymouth," nevertheless they gave him food. The African Moors, also, "knitted their brows and seemed to shudder" at the whiteness of his skin. On the eastern coast, the negro boys when they saw Burton, cried out, "Look at the white man; does he not look like a white ape?" On the western coast, as Mr. Winwood Reade informs me, the negroes admire a very black skin more than one of a lighter tint. But their horror of whiteness may be attributed, according to this same traveller, partly to the belief held by most negroes that demons and spirits are white, and partly to their thinking it a sign of ill-health.
The Banyai of the more southern part of the continent are negroes, but "a great many of them are of a light coffee-and-milk colour, and, indeed, this colour is considered handsome throughout the whole country"; so that here we have a different standard of taste. With the Kaffirs, who differ much from negroes, "the skin, except among the tribes near Delagoa Bay, is not usually black, the prevailing colour being a mixture of black and red, the most common shade being chocolate. Dark complexions, as being most common, are naturally held in the highest esteem. To be told that he is light-coloured, or like a white man, would be deemed a very poor compliment by a Kaffir. I have heard of one unfortunate man who was so very fair that no girl would marry him." One of the titles of the Zulu king is, "You who are black."* Mr. Galton, in speaking to me about the natives of S. Africa, remarked that their ideas of beauty seem very different from ours; for in one tribe two slim, slight, and pretty girls were not admired by the natives.
* Mungo Park's Travels in Africa 4to., 1816, pp. 53, 131. Burton's statement is quoted by Schaaffhausen, Archiv. fur Anthropologie, 1866, s. 163. On the Banyai, Livingstone, Travels, p. 64. On the Kaffirs, the Rev. J. Shooter, The Kafirs of Natal and the Zulu Country, 1857, p. 1.
Turning to other quarters of the world; in Java, a yellow, not a white girl, is considered, according to Madame Pfeiffer, a beauty. A man of Cochin China "spoke with contempt of the wife of the English Ambassador, that she had white teeth like a dog, and a rosy colour like that of potato-flowers." We have seen that the Chinese dislike our white skin, and that the N. Americans admire "a tawny hide." In S. America, the Yuracaras, who inhabit the wooded, damp slopes of the eastern Cordillera, are remarkably pale-coloured, as their name in their own language expresses; nevertheless they consider European women as very inferior to their own.*
* For the Javans and Cochin-Chinese, see Waitz, Introduct. to Anthropology, Eng. translat., vol. i., p. 305. On the Yuracaras, A. d'Orbigny, as quoted in Prichard, Physical History of Mankind, vol. v., 3rd ed., p. 476.
In several of the tribes of North America the hair on the head grows to a wonderful length; and Catlin gives a curious proof how much this is esteemed, for the chief of the Crows was elected to this office from having the longest hair of any man in the tribe, namely ten feet and seven inches. The Aymaras and Quechuas of S. America, likewise have very long hair; and this, as Mr. D. Forbes informs me, is so much valued as a beauty, that cutting it off was the severest punishment which he could inflict on them. In both the northern and southern halves of the continent the natives sometimes increase the apparent length of their hair by weaving into it fibrous substances. Although the hair on the head is thus cherished, that on the face is considered by the North American Indians "as very vulgar," and every hair is carefully eradicated. This practice prevails throughout the American continent from Vancouver's Island in the north to Tierra del Fuego in the south. When York Minster, a Fuegian on board the Beagle, was taken back to his country, the natives told him be ought to pull out the few short hairs on his face. They also threatened a young missionary, who was left for a time with them, to strip him naked, and pluck the hair from his face and body, yet he was far from being a hairy man. This fashion is carried so far that the Indians of Paraguay eradicate their eyebrows and eyelashes, saying that they do not wish to be like horses.*
* North American Indians, by G. Catlin, 3rd ed., 1842, vol. i., p. 49; vol. ii, p. 227. On the natives of Vancouver's Island, see Sproat, Scenes and Studies of Savage Life, 1868, p. 25. On the Indians of Paraguay, Azara, Voyages, tom. ii., p. 105.
It is remarkable that throughout the world the races which are almost completely destitute of a beard dislike hairs on the face and body, and take pains to eradicate them. The Kalmucks are beardless, and they are well known, like the Americans, to pluck out all straggling hairs; and so it is with the Polynesians, some of the Malays, and the Siamese. Mr. Veitch states that the Japanese ladies "all objected to our whiskers, considering them very ugly, and told us to cut them off, and be like Japanese men." The New Zealanders have short, curled beards; yet they formerly plucked out the hairs on the face. They had a saying that "there is no woman for a hairy man"; but it would appear that the fashion has changed in New Zealand, perhaps owing to the presence of Europeans, and I am assured that beards are now admired by the Maories.*
* On the Siamese, Prichard, ibid., vol. iv., p. 533. On the Japanese, Veitch in Gardeners' Chronicle, 1860, p. 1104. On the New Zealanders, Mantegazza, Viaggi e Studi, 1867, p. 526. For the other nations mentioned, see references in Lawrence, Lectures on Physiology, &c., 1822, p. 272.
On the other hand, bearded races admire and greatly value their beards; among the Anglo-Saxons every part of the body had a recognised value; "the loss of the beard being estimated at twenty shillings, while the breaking of a thigh was fixed at only twelve."* In the East men swear solemnly by their beards. We have seen that Chinsurdi, the chief of the Makalolo in Africa, thought that beards were a great ornament. In the Pacific the Fijian's beard is "profuse and bushy, and is his greatest pride"; whilst the inhabitants of the adjacent archipelagoes of Tonga and Samoa are "beardless, and abhor a rough chin." In one island alone of the Ellice group "the men are heavily bearded, and not a little proud thereof."*(2)
* Lubbock, Origin of Civilisation, 1870, p. 321.
*(2) Dr. Barnard Davis quotes Mr. Prichard and others for these facts in regard to the Polynesians, in Anthropolog. Review, April, 1870, pp. 185, 191.
We thus see how widely the different races of man differ in their taste for the beautiful. In every nation sufficiently advanced to have made effigies of their gods or of their deified rulers, the sculptors no doubt have endeavoured to express their highest ideal of beauty and grandeur.* Under this point of view it is well to compare in our mind the Jupiter or Apollo of the Greeks with the Egyptian or Assyrian statues; and these with the hideous bas-reliefs on the ruined buildings of Central America.
* Ch. Comte has remarks to this effect in his Traite de Legislation, 3rd ed., 1837, p. 136.
I have met with very few statements opposed to this conclusion. Mr. Winwood Reade, however, who has had ample opportunities for observation, not only with the negroes of the west coast of Africa, but with those of the interior who have never associated with Europeans, is convinced that their ideas of beauty are on the whole the same as ours; and Dr. Rohlfs writes to me to the same effect with respect to Bornu and the countries inhabited by the Pullo tribes. Mr. Reade found that he agreed with the negroes in their estimation of the beauty of the native girls; and that their appreciation of the beauty of European women corresponded with ours. They admire long hair, and use artificial means to make it appear abundant; they admire also a beard, though themselves very scantily provided. Mr. Reade feels doubtful what kind of nose is most appreciated; a girl has been heard to say, "I do not want to marry him, he has got no nose"; and this shows that a very flat nose is not admired. We should, however, bear in mind that the depressed, broad noses and projecting jaws of the negroes of the west coast are exceptional types with the inhabitants of Africa. Notwithstanding the foregoing statements, Mr. Reade admits that negroes "do not like the colour of our skin; they look on blue eyes with aversion, and they think our noses too long and our lips too thin." He does not think it probable that negroes would ever prefer the most beautiful European woman, on the mere grounds of physical admiration, to a good-looking negress.*
* The African Sketch Book, vol. ii., 1873, pp. 253, 394, 521. The Fuegians, as I have been informed by a missionary who long resided with them, consider European women as extremely beautiful; but from what we have seen of the judgment of the other aborigines of America, I cannot but think that this must be a mistake, unless indeed the statement refers to the few Fuegians who have lived for some time with Europeans, and who must consider us as superior beings. I should add that a most experienced observer, Capt. Burton, believes that a woman whom we consider beautiful is admired throughout the world. Anthropological Review, March, 1864, p. 245.
The general truth of the principle, long ago insisted on by Humboldt,* that man admires and often tries to exaggerate whatever characters nature may have given him, is shown in many ways. The practice of beardless races extirpating every trace of a beard, and often all the hairs on the body affords one illustration. The skull has been greatly modified during ancient and modern times by many nations; and there can be little doubt that this has been practised, especially in N. and S. America, in order to exaggerate some natural and admired peculiarity. Many American Indians are known to admire a head so extremely flattened as to appear to us idiotic. The natives on the northwestern coast compress the head into a pointed cone; and it is their constant practice to gather the hair into a knot on the top of the head, for the sake, as Dr. Wilson remarks, "of increasing the apparent elevation of the favourite conoid form." The inhabitants of Arakhan admire a broad, smooth forehead, and in order to produce it, they fasten a plate of lead on the heads of the new-born children. On the other hand, "a broad, well-rounded occiput is considered a great beauty" by the natives of the Fiji Islands.*(2)
* Personal Narrative, Eng. translat., vol. iv., p. 518, and elsewhere. Mantegazza, in his Viaggi e Studi, strongly insists on this same principle.
*(2) On the skulls of the American tribes, see Nott and Gliddon, Types of Mankind, 1854, p. 440; Prichard, Physical History of Mankind, vol. i., 3rd ed., p. 321; on the natives of Arakhan, ibid., vol. iv., p. 537. Wilson, Physical Ethnology, Smithsonian Institution, 1863, p. 288; on the Fijians, p. 290. Sir J. Lubbock (Prehistoric Times, 2nd ed., 1869, p. 506) gives an excellent resume on this subject.
As with the skull, so with the nose; the ancient Huns during the age of Attila were accustomed to flatten the noses of their infants with bandages, "for the sake of exaggerating a natural conformation." With the Tahitians, to be called long-nose is considered as an insult, and they compress the noses and foreheads of their children for the sake of beauty. The same holds with the Malays of Sumatra, the Hottentots, certain Negroes, and the natives of Brazil.* The Chinese have by nature unusually small feet;*(2) and it is well known that the women of the upper classes distort their feet to make them still smaller. Lastly, Humboldt thinks that the American Indians prefer colouring their bodies with red paint in order to exaggerate their natural tint; and until recently European women added to their naturally bright colours by rouge and white cosmetics; but it may be doubted whether barbarous nations have generally had any such intention in painting themselves.
* On the Huns, Godron, De l'Espece, tom. ii., 1859, p. 300. On the Tahitians, Waitz, Anthropology, Eng. translat., vol. i., p. 305. Marsden, quoted by Prichard, Phys. Hist. of Mankind, 3rd edit., vol. v., p. 67. Lawrence, Lectures on Physiology, p. 337.
*(2) This fact was ascertained in the Reise der Novara: Anthropolog. Theil., Dr. Weisbach, 1867, s. 265.
In the fashions of our own dress we see exactly the same principle and the same desire to carry every point to an extreme; we exhibit, also, the same spirit of emulation. But the fashions of savages are far more permanent than ours; and whenever their bodies are artificially modified, this is necessarily the case. The Arab women of the Upper Nile occupy about three days in dressing their hair; they never imitate other tribes, "but simply vie with each other in the superlativeness of their own style." Dr. Wilson, in speaking of the compressed skulls of various American races, adds, "such usages are among the least eradicable, and long survive the shock of revolutions that change dynasties and efface more important national peculiarities."* The same principle comes into play in the art of breeding; and we can thus understand, as I have elsewhere explained,*(2) the wonderful development of the many races of animals and plants, which have been kept merely for ornament. Fanciers always wish each character to be somewhat increased; they do not admire a medium standard; they certainly do not desire any great and abrupt change in the character of their breeds; they admire solely what they are accustomed to, but they ardently desire to see each characteristic feature a little more developed.
* Smithsonian Institution, 1863, p. 289. On the fashions of Arab women, Sir S. Baker, The Nile Tributaries, 1867, p. 121.
*(2) The Variation of Animals and Plants under Domestication, vol. i., p. 214; vol. ii., p. 240.
The senses of man and of the lower animals seem to be so constituted that brilliant colours and certain forms, as well as harmonious and rhythmical sounds, give pleasure and are called beautiful; but why this should be so we know not. It is certainly not true that there is in the mind of man any universal standard of beauty with respect to the human body. It is, however, possible that certain tastes may in the course of time become inherited, though there is no evidence in favour of this belief: and if so, each race would possess its own innate ideal standard of beauty. It has been argued* that ugliness consists in an approach to the structure of the lower animals, and no doubt this is partly true with the more civilised nations, in which intellect is highly appreciated; but this explanation will hardly apply to all forms of ugliness. The men of each race prefer what they are accustomed to; they cannot endure any great change; but they like variety, and admire each characteristic carried to a moderate extreme.*(2) Men accustomed to a nearly oval face, to straight and regular features, and to bright colours, admire, as we Europeans know, these points when strongly developed. On the other hand, men accustomed to a broad face, with high cheek-bones, a depressed nose, and a black skin, admire these peculiarities when strongly marked. No doubt characters of all kinds may be too much developed for beauty. Hence a perfect beauty, which implies many characters modified in a particular manner, will be in every race a prodigy. As the great anatomist Bichat long ago said, if every one were cast in the same mould, there would be no such thing as beauty. If all our women were to become as beautiful as the Venus de' Medici, we should for a time be charmed; but we should soon wish for variety; and as soon as we had obtained variety, we should wish to see certain characters a little exaggerated beyond the then existing common standard.
* Schaaffhausen, Archiv. fur Anthropologie, 1866, s. 164.
*(2) Mr. Bain has collected (Mental and Moral Science, 1868, pp. 304-314) about a dozen more or less different theories of the idea of beauty; but none is quite the same as that here given."
I think I'll be taking leave here for now, since Emily has pretty much devolved into spewing the same tired bile over and over. I'll leave it at this, Emily- you're genuinely sick in the head. You are FUCKED UP. Please, for the love of god, learn to develop some intellectual honesty and empathy for once in your life.
My brother married a symmetrical asian. I live in a city with a lot of Koreans, by and large they are pretty symmetrical. Asymmetry is not the norm for them.
Even in some of Emily's photos I can see symmetrical asians:
Ignore the teeth:
Really guys, calm down. There is nothing wrong with being ugly.
"I wonder why you even exist"
I would never wish for Jake's non-existance whoever he is. I'm sure he is valuable person, just as every person is. I make fun of him but who knows why Jake is the way he is. He may have been conditioned to think this way. He might have insecurities. He might really just think that black people are primitive.
Either way he deserves to exist. What makes me sad is the fact that he is blind to bigger picture. He is in his own little bubble in his own little world, nice and safe but the world isn't nice and safe.
HAHAHAHAHA
LMAO Jake! Wow!
Hopping while walking?
They like chicken?
WHAT THE FUCK! Are you a joke? This is fucking hilarious! Those are your reasons as to why Africans are primitive? Go learn something if you are actually going to claim Africans are primitive and practically sub-human. You sound like an idiot.
You are always going to sound like an idiot, but at least try to sound like an educated idiot. Like Emily.
It's just strange how bigoted people can be and still consider themselves not racists.
I work as a promotional model (yes I am a model) and I was signing some local people as members for a Hospital Foundation trust and raising awareness for social issues in that area.
Some of the people (and they were white) wouldn't fill in the box that said race, black, asian, mixed. They said they do not believe in Race and never fill that box even for job applications.
I guess it goes to show that not everyone thinks the way Jake the racist thinks.
Jake,
"I am NOT a racist"
In that case Hitler wasn't a racist either, neither was KKK and other murderers that existed in history.
You're not a racist, just a MONSTER and I wonder why you even exist.
BTW I am not african, I am only too ashamed to admit I am a married white woman, I just have a more broader, informed and educated outlook than you do.
Hi, is a person named erik the manager of this site? i just wanted to know what the aim of this site was? is it to let women who do not have supermodel-esque features realise their own beauty by comdemming models? if that's the case then you should let women understand that even though society perceives models like gisele and heidi to be beautiful and sexy, regular women are beautiful in their own right as well... instead, all i've noticed is that u have brushed of these models looks as ugly and non-sexy and have used glamour models to show what true beauty is. is that your aim? to show R-rated models as the real beauties of this world? u may think that i'm a supporter or great fan of high fashion models and such. but that is not the case. I just feel that if u wanted to rid women of the idea that only high fashion models are beautiful, then u have done that. but only because u have replaced it with your opinion that only glamour models are sexy and beautiful, since all your comparisons were between high fashion models and glamour models. I would also like to ask you, what about women who do have high fashion model features? are you saying these women are hideous and will never have - what u like to call - 'life time exclusive' partners? i happen to be someone who has a prominent jaw line, robust cheekbones, small pelvis and many other masculine features.. i am very slender and tall as well, but i'm not a model. are you saying that i look horrible?
I also think maybe you are being too hard on yourself.
Personally,i dont think most people on this planet are ugly.There are average people and also some that are very blessed aesthetically plus everything in between, but its very rare that i would see a person that i would actually class a "ugly"
"...whereas similarities can often be seen today in other races, I think"
Yep negros :-) A lot of black people look like they are around 5 centuries behind in catching up to modern man. The evidence is there:-
Facial features
The hair
The long orangutan arms
Hopping while walking
Uncivilised
Shouting instead of talking
Countless children
Double parking and holding up traffic
No regard for human life
Love of chicken
Love of watermelon
and many more.
I am NOT a racist but the above facts makes you think that I do have a point. Obviously not all are like that but the majority of them are. Thank god they have the power of speech otherwise we humans may have thrown them in the cage at the zoo along with the apes and the chimps!
38-26-38, I am certainly not in possession of light bone structure. I'm not overweight at least (i"m 5'7 and 133). Most Americans are these days (ever seen peopleofwalmart.com). Kinda scary. Nor am I in possession of light coloring (beyond pale olive skin) since i'm a brown eyed, brunette. I am well-aware I am not what most people consider attractive. It doesn't bother me. Life goes on either way. I was a bartender for a few years before I was finally able to just get into music. I found most attractive women have husbands who are getting some outside of the home anyway. Most of the time the "other woman" in question was not attractive by most standards. The question at hand is emotional need. These women tended to fill an emotional need. Outward Attractiveness is a need of most men but not all. Most men don't rate it nearly as high as sex or most of their other needs for that matter. Furthermore most people on this planet are ugly. It's the law of averages you know. I doubt most men are going to be picky when they aren't exactly the cream of the crop themselves. I am not stating my husband is ugly. He's actually a blonde, blue eyed nordic looking thing Emily loves to screech about. He's just not an alpha male. that's fine, cause I'm not an alpha female.
Oh it was my comment above!
And I have to say I can find beauty in things regular people cannot. I bet you even Emily is a beauty! Although her words make her seem ugly.
Rawr:
:(
I don't know how attractive or unattractive you are, but you just seem like the kind of person that is a tad bit too hard on yourself! It is important for us to understand our shortcomings so we can do what we can with them. I am imperfect and I can recognize my flaws, and I think it is important for us to recognize our flaws so that we can do whatever we can to the best of our abilities to change them or improve them or hey, just live with them.
The thing is I doubt you are "unattractive". Maybe you just haven't realized your potential yet. Besides, acne doesn't have that much to do with bone structure. Just because you have acne doesn't automatically make you uanttractive jesus!
Besides your personality is very attractive:) I think you are intelligent and clever.
There's a lot more to human relationships than looks. You can't live with someone just because you think they are pretty. Many studies have also shown familiarity tends to increase one's standing as far as beauty goes. Personality traits tend to be more important in the long run.
Rawr,
It is actually interesting that you called yourself ugly (I believe that you may be exaggerating thou) yet you said you are happily married. Interesting indeed because all of those women Emily says are “pretty” because they possess Nordic features are usually the ones who end up single until late in their thirties then to end up with an guy that dumps them a couple of years later for an ethnic woman and/or a brunette.
Emily’s beliefs stem more from personal frustration than from looking objectively at the facts. Perhaps, a guy she liked, was dating or married to dumped her for an Asian woman (seems that is the particular race she likes to attack). The truth is that I do have the features that Emily says are considered beautiful (blonde hair, green eyes, facial bone structure, physically fit etc, etc), however I do not consider myself superior or more beautiful than other races because of it. After all if that would have been the case every other woman would be single and only myself and other blondes would be the ones getting all the guys.
Congratulations on your great figure godis, and excuse my spelling...I'm sure not such an idiot that you think I use "Barberella" on a regular basis! Fool, still....how sad, no progress, I'd be more worried about THAT than how I spell shit on here, asshole.
Cecilia and callmewhatyouwant,
VC is now resorting to insulting the intelligence of those whom English isn't their first language though gods know what that has to do with anything...And of course, Cecilia, this is typical of godis to think that anyone who agrees with Emily MUST BE EMILY, since she's resorted to inventing alter egos (due to a malfunction in her distorted perceptions) so therefore, everyone else does as well...
Godis,
Hmmm....can't understand how or why Emily shows pics of Romanian women because she doesn't like you personally, do you really think the sun shines out of your ass, or what? It's all about you..I'd almost forgot. You, ALWAYS being the (cough cough) better person have never made fun of Scandinavians because YOU don't like her personally. When I read that, I laughed and laughed, thank you for continuing to supply my "joke of the day", you can never have too many.
So, guess some things never change, anyone who appreciated Nordic beauty is a Nordic fetishist, real cool argument, and so smart. It makes me a think that maybe everyone else here has no more valid points to make. Guess "Nordic Fetishist!" is the best anyone can do. Sad.
This thread is about the beauty of the VERY sought after Nordic nose and yet you all post pics and make absurd arguments against this theory though none of you have yet to prove it to be false.
Emily continues to show how this is true, and sorry but it is, to a lot of people.
Oh no!! I'm defending her again, such a terrible person I am, it's a good thing I could care less what you all think.
"A heavy set, badly dressed and acne-faced women is hideous no matter what ethnicity she is from"
While I agree with many of the points you've made your digs at acne are pretty ill informed. I've had it for the last ten years. I wash my face three times a day. Grooming has little to do with it.
I am ugly though. I admit that, I own it, I don't fucking care about it. I ended up getting married and regularly laid anyway. I'm an artist too, go fucking figure. Ugly people do get somewhere in life.
Elle,
Me stating that i think SOME Asians are beautiful doesnt automatically make it by default that i believe that the MAJORITY of Caucasians are beautiful.Your simply reading into things that arn't there.
If i stated that SOME Caucasian are beautiful would you automatically assume that that meant i thought the MAJORITY of Asians are beautiful?
I said some,becuase if we all be honest,some people are more attractive and some arnt as classically attractive but have other great qualities and that goes for every race.
The Swedish people might have got their Asiatic look via the Finns and the Baltics. In North India many people do have European features, most probaly via the Greeks. There is a history that suggest that too.
No, I am not "Godis", but some people who have seen me call me Goddess. LOL
Your facial features look nice and proportionate. I like your profile too, especially your nose.
Hey Visitor,
Thanks! People actually notice eyebrows? :D
Are you Godis by any chance?
So would you say that my forehead is small then? or normal?
Also i must say i have to disagree with you saying that Swedish people have Asiatic ancestry/mixing at large. I mean we are all humans so there is overlap in features. For example i am Indian (pure lol) but some of my features are more European which doesn't mean i have had any European mixing. See for yourself.
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