You seem to have a hard time understanding what a round face looks like. I have noticed that before.
Generally, round faces are not characteristic for Northern/Western Europeans, or people of that descent. Round face types are most commonly found in Eastern Europeans of slavic type, and in many Asians, of course.
Charlize has an oval face shape. Her face is not long, that's true, but nevertheless her face goes into the oval category.
These are examples of round faces and all are Eastern European and very typical:
"it ceased to be solely a religious sacrament controlled by the religious authority. It became a civil arrangement controlled by the state, and thus subject to civil law"
The key word being "solely". It is still VERY MUCH a religious act, that should be guided by the teachings and beliefs of the Christian Church. You have no right to come and dictate what we should believe and not believe, change our faith, or force preasts to marry you.
The mere fact that you compared marriage to the marriage of kethcup bottles speaks volumes, and shows how insensitive and cold you are to religious traditions and faith.
"Marriage, by definition, could be the marriage of two ketchup bottles into one. It has nothing to do with gender."
The fact remains that it is up to Christians to say who can be wed in the Christian Church, since it is OUR religion. Marrying homosexuals runs contrary to Christian belief. As long as we have free religion no one has the right to try to change our faith. The mere fact that you are trying is a disgrace, but is applauded by the enemies of Christians.
Regarding the legal aspects of marriage you do have a point. Therefore it exists in Sweden a partnership law, that makes it possible for homosexuals to get a registered partnership, with legal benefits equal to that of a married couple. In other words, you will have all rights that married people have, for example inheritance laws, "divorce" laws, etc. will be the same.
Wikipedia:
"Registered partnership is one of several terms synonymous with a civil union or civil partnership similar to marriage, typically created in order to provide same-sex couples the legal and social benefits of traditional marriage and thus could be described as quasi marriages. The term is used in the Scandinavian countries, The Netherlands, Czech Republic and Switzerland. The same concept under slight different terminology can also be found in Germany, Hungary and the United Kingdom. "
"Registered partnerships in these countries are nearly equal to marriage. The Scandinavian registered partnership laws are short, and basically state that, wherever the word "marriage" or "spouse" appears in the country's laws, it will also be construed to mean "registered partnership" or "registered partner", respectively."
And yes to a certain extent I agree that Northern Europeans have good genes which include fine facial features. However, the reason Northern Europeans are more feminine in my opinion is strongly correlated to diet, a diet that has been around for looong time. But again I scan a bunch of articles without ever REALLY reading them so maybe my theory is off. I do wish I had more time and went into the science field now.
I am visitor. lol. I am really not trying to convince myself I am feminine,but I am really confused because the truth is after I found this site I believed myself to be feminine. Now, after finding out about the finger length in relation to hormones I realize there is a chance I may not be as feminine as I think or feminine at all. I have big breasts, and a small waist, and round cheeks and very feminine features but they may just be the result of genes rather than hormones. If I have high testosterone levels, but my genes make me appear feminine, then I would only be a pseudo-feminine girl, kind of like Charlize. I would have good genes, but not good hormones and this concerns me because the higher your estrogen levels the more fertile you are. I am confused as if I am really feminine or not and I want to know. I like to be educated so then I can take action on anything I can control. If my hormones are off maybe there is something I can do about it, and maybe I can educate other women about how to become more feminine and beautiful as well. I am an artist, I've been drawing and painting from a young age, so I often focus on the beautiful things in life as most artists do. I am fascinated by the concept of beauty, both the philosohpical and scientific views and definitions. I want to be beautiful and healthy, just like any other woman. I just want to take full advantage of any potential I could have. I also don't want any woman to get left behind. I think every girl deserves to be beautiful and if I find any way of enhancing my appearance and health I would share it with every woman in hopes that they too can find happiness and fufillment from my discoveries.
I like natural remedies for beauty, and am looking into phytoestrogens although I do not understand the articles most of the time because I have a bad tendency of scanning things instead of actually reading them as Erik knows from the many times I have scanned his articles without really reading them. This is because I have a lack of time and come on websites like this during my breaks because they interest me. I also want to start a beauty blog that helps women to become as healthy, feminine and at the same time strong, and beautiful as they can possibly be with whatever they were given by God. So far I have discovered the amazing effects of olive oil as a natural moisturizer and also the effects it has on skin if taken orally. I realized olive oil contains pretty good levels of phytoestrogens and wondered if there was a connection. So, I don't think I need to consult a doctor, I don't believe in going too far. I like natural remedies for anything and have thrown out my moisurizer since discovering olive oil. Probably the most unnatural things I use are: eye cream with low doses of retinol to prevent wrinkles, my face wash whatever it contains, certain makeups like eyeliners and cover up which are made out of who knows what I should look that up. Otherwise I use mineral makeup, I use olive oil as a moisturizer, I eat healthily and exercise and thats my ingredients to beauty. If you have any tips on phytoestrogens please let me know! I really want to know if they can make a woman appear more feminine or if they actually do the reverse. I am confused about that. I know they may be harmful if taken in high doses, but I think it is common sense to anyone that most things should be eaten in moderation and consuming slightly higher doses of plants containing phytoestrogens than your usual intake probably won't do any damage.
I still do not see a lot of masculinization in Charlize Theron's face especially in those photos where she is really young. If anyone can point out WHY her face is mascunilized and compare it to someone that has a MUCH more feminine face than Charlize please do so, you'd be my hero.
I am still wondering to what extent genes play a role in attraction and to what extent hormones do.
Might I also add, that it is pin-ups, not super models, that I thought to be beautiful and ideal. To this day I prefer their looks overall and so do most of the men I know. They often say, "Man, if only women really looked like that." Some men actually do believe that they are being decieved by the media. I really hope that Erik's endeavers are fruitful (no pun intended-or maybe I should have said fruitless[lol]). This is a really savvy and thought provoking site and am so glad I found it.
Oh and by the way: taking any estrogen supplements, even "herbal", or over the counter, should probably be discussed with your OB/GYN. I know that my mom was recommended them at menopause, but they interacted with other medicines she was taking and had to stop taking them.
While Miranda's nose deviates from "perfection", it is fine (meaning not hideous), as the rest of her features are relatively symmetrical. Symmetry is usually what is "required" when gauging one's attractiveness, masculine, or feminine. As for Charlize's face: she has beautiful symmetry, and extremely fine bones structure, as Erik's pointed out. Although I tend to agree with him, that she is not hyper feminine, she has the typical North European bone structure. She is South African, not French (someone said she was French and from what I understand, she isn't), and South Africans are predominantly Dutch (if I'm wrong, please let me know), meaning Nordic, or of a Nordic "sub-type". That would explain her fine, gracile features, and light coloring.
Visitor: after reading your long, lengthy post, I think that you are trying to convince yourself, not anyone else, that you're feminine. Regardless if your index finger is shorter than your ring finger, if you're built like a pin-up, or Lara Croft, I think it's safe to say that you're above average in the femininity department! I doubt that Erik can tell you anything conclusive, but you seem to be fixated on this. Feminine women can excel in math and science, can play with cars and be interested in pursuing athletics without being butch. You have spent so much time discussing this, and I'm sorry if my comments are unappreciated and uninvited, but you did post them on a public forum! Every woman can, from time to time, be a little masculine in some areas, but they're probably still feminine overall. Why don't you send Erik some pics, and contact him via e-mail, if you're looking for a thorough in-depth analysis.
As far as your pin-up pics, I loved them! Good luck.
As far as this article, it would be a "novel" approach if it were a little more subtle...lol. I'm also not sure that people would take the articles serioulsy if they were reading about the, for instance, economic crises in various nations, or the escalating tensions between country A and country B, if there were pictures of beautiful, scantily clad women in the columns. It is brilliant, but I think that a slightly more subtle approach would probably go over better. Then again, why not read about such things while appreciating a truly beautiful feminine woman. I guess there's only one way to find out....
Godis: I believe the link to higher estrogen, that is if you're referring to the "feminine" women that Erik features here, shows no corelation to a higher incidence of breast cancer. There are other factors, such as heredity, the use of oral contraceptives, numbers of live births, etc. that show a stronger corelation. I'm sorry, I know you asked this of Erik, but it gave me pause to think as well...
My stepmom is one of the most masculinized women that I've ever seen, and she had breast cancer. She survived it, thank gods, but an abundance of estrogen was definitely not the culprit in her case.
I think it is absurd that such a question was asked in the first place. I understand that the "personality" portion of the pageant is important, but asking one's views on gay marriage is akin to asking one's stance on abortion, the death penalty, etc. It is inappropriate and what the f#@* was Perez Hilton doing there, judging, in the first place? He is just some Hollywood gossip peddling ass who makes no significant contributions to the entertainment business. I applaud the honesty of Miss Prejean. I'm sorry that it cost her the crown, but then again, after being subjected to such nonsense, I'd think twice about what the politics of pageantry has done to that insitution, and then wonder if I'd really want to be a part of it at all. And why on earth are gays now trying to scandalize her further? That's a joke. Some, not all, of these "elitist" gays will stop at nothing to promote their agenda. They've already taken over fashion and much of the pop culture we enjoy. If you wish to engage in a certain lifestyle, than you have to accept that their are certain limitations upon making that choice. It's not punishment, it's reality.
Oh I see, with Charlize Theron's nose job you were referring to the nose job photos. No,that is not why I posted them up. I don't believe she had a nose job either. I put those up to show how feminine she was at a younger age as well. She was really feminine. I still can't get over the fact that you believe she has below average femininity in the face. I really can't. Look at her face. I mean seriously, it is extremely feminine. Look at her face when she is young.
and yes as she gets older she gets slightly more mascunilized,but I still believe her face to exhibit above average femininity, I really do.
I believe my bones are probably smaller than Laras as well LOL and when I am more slender I appear even less athletic and more feminine although my body shape remains the same.
Might I add, I'm not kidding but I have a body like the character Lara Croft from Tombraider. So I can see how it may be a tad bit on the athletic side. However, my thighs are less muscular but they are shapely, my shoulders more rounded and slightly smaller although close in size, and my waist is almost as small but probably not quite as small. However, my waist is freakishly small. Also, my ribcage is probably the same size.
My backside is similar to hers. My face looks nothing like hers, lol. Hers is quite hideous
Also, can you please give me an example of a celebrity that has a really feminine face that you've never mentioned on the site. Very above average feminine qualities. Can you please point them out individually! Thanks!
For question 2, I don't mean higher doses of testosterone than estrogen, I mean it just indicates I have high testosterone levels. I do excel in sports,music,mathematics, and I am competitive etc. and these all seem to be more masculine features according to this article I read. Also, I have a high sex drive but I think my interest is based on the fact I am waiting for marriage and never had any. However, I am extremely feminine. Ever since I was a kid I was obsessed with the color pink,wearing dresses, primping myself, etc. I was your typically girly girl except I liked to play with cars too and got along with the boys just as well as with girls. Now I am extremely motherly and I can't wait to have kids. I would feel fufilled in life being a stay at home mom and taking care of the kids, house,and husband. I love gardening, and I have high test scores in the verbal and reading department all strong feminine qualities. I love clothes and makeup and interior decorating. etc. You get the drifT! Am I feminine or masculine or just really well balanced although my physical features are not balanced but appear very feminine? I have an hourglass shape and good hips and a backside, but I run extremely well despite that. Why is it I am fairly athletic(not super athletic) but don't have an athletic body?
Really? I find that Charlize Theron has a very feminine face? I don't see what is not feminine about it really, only that it sometimes looks mascunilized,and like I said I think many times with bad lighting or a bad hairstyle a very feminine womans face can even look masculine. I would say that the more overall feminine woman compared to Charlize Theron like Keeley Hazel and Megan Fox both have more masculine faces than Charlize Theron. Maybe I am biased because I think Charlize has a beautiful face for some reason. I never mentioned her having a nose job? She has a really cute nose, now Emily that is a good Nordic nose in my opinion.
Also, I'm not saying it is bad lighting that makes the VS models look masculine, just that the lighting they use emphasizes the masculinity they already have. It is obvious the goal of the designer is to masculinize them as much as possible.
I'm glad you responded because I have a few more questions for you if you could respond some time:
1. Do you think women who are naturally attractive and have high estrogen levels need to wear makeup? There have been studies that showed that with no makeup feminine women were preferred, but when makeup masked the effects of masculinization on the face (I don't know to what extent mascunilization can be masked with makeup honestly) those women were preferred almost equally to the feminine women. I am wondering because I do wear makeup. I have light eyelashes, my hair is now a dull darkblonde/light brown color and looks harsh against my pale skin, and even if I stop eating healthy for a week only it shows up on my skin straight away. So, I am wondering if I'm just ugly and that is why I need makeup or if makeup generally helps anyone including feminine women.
2.Do finger lengths determine how feminine or masculine someone is? I always believed myself to be a very feminine woman, since every time I walk in a room I can garauntee I will be the girl with the smallest waist, the hourglass figure, and usually even the girl with the largest breasts. This is among any type of population including Northern European women since the majority of the kids at my university are Caucasian and Northern European. However, despite that it seems that my index finger is shorter than my ring finger which suggests that I have higher testosterone levels than estrogen levels. I have small hands, they appear almost childlike. I am not underdeveloped, just really feminine like I said. My feet and hands are actually attractive, my hands are dainty and cute and my feet have a nice arch to them and they are small. I know masculinization usually shows up in your hands and feet if anything else so I don't understand if the finger length thing is accurate how I could have high testosterone levels. Unless of course I just have high levels of everything, although I doubt that is even possible. Is the finger length thing accurate? Am I really masculine and pseudo-feminine or something? I'm so confused, there is just no sign of any masculnization for me except the finger thing...
3. Can giving an adolescent girl estrogen, say something natural like phytoestrogens directly from plants, make her more attractive by the time she develops and is full grown? Is there a danger in this? If someone wants to have attractive boys and girls would they give the girls foods that mimick estrogen and not allow boys foods that mimick estrogen like soy, legumes, etc. Would phytoestrogens form plants make a full grown woman any more attractive? Does eating phytoestrogens in high doses actually reverse the effectss and make someone more masculine, while in small doses it works to femininize? I am asking this because I am starting a beauty blog and I don't know much about subject. I might not ever write anything about it, but if I do enough research I might add something in there and I would really really like your opinion because believe it or not I have come to learn a lot about femininity from this site. Whether I like it or not a lot of the stuff on here is true and it helps me a lot. I think even masculine women should emphasize any femininity they have and that is what my beauty blog is going to be about, getting in touch with your femininity no matter how you are. I'm not going to lie though I still disagree with a lot on this site, but it is the most helpful site about femininty I've come across. So please help thanks!
It has become increasingly clear that we won't be able to come to a consensus on almost everything that we have discussed thus far, so let me just make a few closing remarks. You believe that there is an fundamental difference between a same-sex marriage and an opposite-sex marriage, and I believe the difference is negligible. These are simply opposing opinions, and we will have to agree to disagree.
Note: the 14th and 15th amendments are part of the constitution. They are not simply "changes" to the constitution. Once an amendment is passed it shares equal weight with any other article or amendment. The claim that homosexuals are more prone to pedophilia and to contract STDs is a myth. Most pedophiles are straight, and STDs can be contracted by anyone.
I think it is enough to document that the appearance of high fashion models is out of step with the majority's preferences. If you provide people with the information to support that claim, then young girls and women affected by fashion images may be convinced. If you make it clear that the fashion industry has an aesthetic that they use to sell their clothing, but it is not as aesthetic that appeals to most people outside of that context, then you have done your job. Why that aesthetic exists within that industry can be speculated upon, and if you're going to offer your theory, then at least balance it with other educated opinions. This will remove the appearance of bias from your argument and increase its efficacy.
I have enjoyed debating these issues with you, and I hope you have enjoyed it as well. I also hope you have felt that I have extended a level of respect to you despite our differences. For my part, I thank you for considering my points and not just dismissing them off-hand. Perhaps in the future I will return to the site again to see what new information you have posted. Until then, take care, and I will be looking forward to your response to these closing remarks.
Godis: Honey, if you wanted to show that if we look hard enough then we can find some type of masculinization in any woman, then you have failed. Masculinization is not denoted by a single feature but by how different parts come together or overall looks. Charlize Theron is not a feminine woman and neither does she have a face with clearly above average femininity among women of her own ethnic background. She has fine facial features, which add an element of pseudo-feminization to her face. This is why you can find pictures of her face where it looks feminine and others where it doesn’t looks so feminine (disproportionately her older pictures). Besides, she has not had a nose job, at least none that can be inferred from the photographs.
Lesha: The choice of onecomparison (e.g., Grace) is to show that the matter goes beyond curves since Grace doesn’t have much in terms of curves. And if you believe that I should be comparing Giselle Bundchen to “women that heterosexual men are KNOWN to find attractive such as porn stars,” then you should note that porn stars are a poor choice to infer the optimal preferences of heterosexual men.
Billy: It is not possible to have the meaning of equality extend to all situations. What if I am seeking models for advertising tanning lotions and an African applies and I reject the African? Would this be an example of racial discrimination? How many Africans purchase tanning lotion? To consider another example, let us say that the government decides to handle the societal burden of sexually transmitted infections (STIs). Since nonheterosexuals are disproportionately responsible for society’s STI burden, on what basis can heterosexual and nonheterosexual demographic groups be considered equivalent in this scenario? But if a homosexual and a heterosexual get a traffic ticket, then there is no reason why they should be treated differently. You cannot have equality extend to all situations because equality is not characteristic of all situations. Same-sex marriage is not an equality issue but a privilege issue that activists are claiming they have a right to.
You have incorrectly portrayed the marriage issue as matter of “whether or not it is constitutional to ban a legal agreement between two consenting adults simply because the majority, who will receive no harm from the agreement, do not approve.” Nothing prevents a homosexual couple from signing a wide variety of contracts between the two of them. But the contract you have mentioned is a very specific contract that comes with a pre-assigned package of rights/responsibilities/obligations, some not necessarily explicitly stated, that carries with it the approval of society and it is a contract that stems from what society values highly. This very specific contract has long been understood as between a man and a woman.
It is also misleading for you to state that the majority of southerners were against integration but that segregation was found to be unconstitutional. Are you not aware that the constitution had to be changed before segregation was found unconstitutional, and that this change was pushed by a hostile minority against an unwilling majority?
There is not enough space here to be discussing the nature of homosexuality and this is not the site for it. It should be obvious that if there were not plenty of unflattering correlates of homosexuality then there would be no need to ban free speech regarding homosexuality-related issues, which several nations do.
By describing marriage as something that has nothing to do with gender, you are coming up with a concept unshared by most people. Why does one have to prove that the union of two heterosexuals is different from a union of two homosexuals? What do “heterosexual” and “homosexual” tell you?
You said, “The incest example does not apply, and the very narrow scenario you proposed involving incest is a poor analogy, because sterile incestuous couples are not a recognized social group.” Again, the incest example was never meant to be analogous to same-sex marriage. It was simply to show that being consenting adults is insufficient.
People don’t see top models everywhere they go, but they extensively encounter them on TV and in magazines. The study by Donohoe et al. has nothing to do with anything refuting what is clear about the majority’s preferences regarding women’s looks. Donohoe et al. documented averageness as a correlate of beauty, which has been long known, but did not have the study design to extract other components of beauty, and used the wrong sets of women labeled as “super attractive.”
It is not enough to just document that the typical appearance of high-fashion models is inconsistent with majority preferences. One has to explain why. How else will I account for the discrepancy? And the why is also important when it comes to undermining the negative impact on some girls and women. If you just tell them that most people don’t think highly of high-fashion model looks, they could just respond by saying that fashion industry professionals know better than you what works. These girls and women need to be told about the reason why: male homosexual designers’ aesthetic preferences for the early-adolescent-boy look, and once they know about this, few would want to acquire looks to make themselves more pleasing to this demographic. This claim may seem outlandish to some but it is backed up a considerable amount of evidence: the top ranks of the fashion industry being dominated by homosexual men; the preference for female models not just very thin but also masculinized such that many of them bear an uncanny resemblance to boys in their early adolescence, especially when they start modeling in their early or mid teens; considerable evidence for a strong association between same-sex attraction and sexual interest in children, etc. People have proposed alternatives such as why a preference for very thin models or masculine looks, but the challenge is to explain both elements and also explain time trends. No alternative explanation regarding this matter is as comprehensive and parsimonious as mine, and I am by no means the first proponent of this notion.
Hmmm...blue eyes vs. brown? Mixed raced individuals have a fatal immune system flaw? Erik is the antichrist and Emily is his vile minion? I think this has gone waaaay off topic! Anyway, Erik said somewhere that for every one comment Emily posts there will be ten that oppose her, and that appears to be the case. There is absolutely nothing wrong with expressing pride for one's own race, ethnicity and nationality. It seems as though non-whites are not only allowed, but encouraged to be vocal in their "pride", but should a white girl do the same, then she is racist? This hardly seems fair. I have only begun to read through the message boards here, but have read the bulk of the articles. Funny how Erik exalts European (feminine) beauty, and is harrassed endlessly, but there are countless other sites on the net that exalt "ethnic" beauty, and they are praised. I, for one, am tired of the double standard. I admit that on a few occasions Emily did get a little heated, and may have allowed her frustration to get the best of her, but I can't say that I'd have done any differently. I'm not in any way insecure in my looks. It is a well known fact that there are countless numbers of beautiful women in Scandinavia, as well as in the other Northern and North Western parts of Europe, and above average beauty is the norm. It is an ideal that is emulated in all parts of the world. It is sad to consider, also, that the traits of Northern European beauty that I may pass along may one day be so recessive, that the beautiful coloring and features will cease to exist. I've heard a lot of people say blahblahblah, this won't happen, but that is not true. It is happening right now.
Emily doesn't need to post pics of Swedish models to show what Swedes look like, because that is what ordinary Swedes look like. When I have more time, I will post pics of all kinds of Northern European "normal" women(not models) to further prove the case.
Race mixing aside, as I don't believe my opinion on the issue will change other peoples minds, I am proud of my ethnicity, looks and features, and hope to not see them lost over time.
What people fail to realize is that native Europeans have every right to want to see their customs and way of life preserved, and I will stand by this statement, un-PC or not.
Grace Kelly does not have an oval face shape. It is a squared off face. She leans towards a diamond face shape actually, although she seems to have a combination of many different faces shapes. Again, I believe Megan Fox comes extremely close to an oval face shape, the ideal face shape. Compare to Grace Kelly's above:
By "you" I was referring to godis, of course.
More round faces;
Grace has an oval face with square elements to it, too;
This Swedish girl has a rather similar face shape, I think. Some people have mixed face shape;
Diamond shape;
Long face shape;
Square/roundish face shape;
You seem to have a hard time understanding what a round face looks like. I have noticed that before.
Generally, round faces are not characteristic for Northern/Western Europeans, or people of that descent. Round face types are most commonly found in Eastern Europeans of slavic type, and in many Asians, of course.
Charlize has an oval face shape. Her face is not long, that's true, but nevertheless her face goes into the oval category.
These are examples of round faces and all are Eastern European and very typical:
Here is Charlize in comparison;
Thank you, barberella. That was a very nice and kind comment.
"it ceased to be solely a religious sacrament controlled by the religious authority. It became a civil arrangement controlled by the state, and thus subject to civil law"
The key word being "solely". It is still VERY MUCH a religious act, that should be guided by the teachings and beliefs of the Christian Church. You have no right to come and dictate what we should believe and not believe, change our faith, or force preasts to marry you.
The mere fact that you compared marriage to the marriage of kethcup bottles speaks volumes, and shows how insensitive and cold you are to religious traditions and faith.
"Marriage, by definition, could be the marriage of two ketchup bottles into one. It has nothing to do with gender."
The fact remains that it is up to Christians to say who can be wed in the Christian Church, since it is OUR religion. Marrying homosexuals runs contrary to Christian belief. As long as we have free religion no one has the right to try to change our faith. The mere fact that you are trying is a disgrace, but is applauded by the enemies of Christians.
Regarding the legal aspects of marriage you do have a point. Therefore it exists in Sweden a partnership law, that makes it possible for homosexuals to get a registered partnership, with legal benefits equal to that of a married couple. In other words, you will have all rights that married people have, for example inheritance laws, "divorce" laws, etc. will be the same.
Wikipedia:
"Registered partnership is one of several terms synonymous with a civil union or civil partnership similar to marriage, typically created in order to provide same-sex couples the legal and social benefits of traditional marriage and thus could be described as quasi marriages. The term is used in the Scandinavian countries, The Netherlands, Czech Republic and Switzerland. The same concept under slight different terminology can also be found in Germany, Hungary and the United Kingdom. "
"Registered partnerships in these countries are nearly equal to marriage. The Scandinavian registered partnership laws are short, and basically state that, wherever the word "marriage" or "spouse" appears in the country's laws, it will also be construed to mean "registered partnership" or "registered partner", respectively."
Just leave religion out of it.
And yes to a certain extent I agree that Northern Europeans have good genes which include fine facial features. However, the reason Northern Europeans are more feminine in my opinion is strongly correlated to diet, a diet that has been around for looong time. But again I scan a bunch of articles without ever REALLY reading them so maybe my theory is off. I do wish I had more time and went into the science field now.
Barberella:
I am visitor. lol. I am really not trying to convince myself I am feminine,but I am really confused because the truth is after I found this site I believed myself to be feminine. Now, after finding out about the finger length in relation to hormones I realize there is a chance I may not be as feminine as I think or feminine at all. I have big breasts, and a small waist, and round cheeks and very feminine features but they may just be the result of genes rather than hormones. If I have high testosterone levels, but my genes make me appear feminine, then I would only be a pseudo-feminine girl, kind of like Charlize. I would have good genes, but not good hormones and this concerns me because the higher your estrogen levels the more fertile you are. I am confused as if I am really feminine or not and I want to know. I like to be educated so then I can take action on anything I can control. If my hormones are off maybe there is something I can do about it, and maybe I can educate other women about how to become more feminine and beautiful as well. I am an artist, I've been drawing and painting from a young age, so I often focus on the beautiful things in life as most artists do. I am fascinated by the concept of beauty, both the philosohpical and scientific views and definitions. I want to be beautiful and healthy, just like any other woman. I just want to take full advantage of any potential I could have. I also don't want any woman to get left behind. I think every girl deserves to be beautiful and if I find any way of enhancing my appearance and health I would share it with every woman in hopes that they too can find happiness and fufillment from my discoveries.
I like natural remedies for beauty, and am looking into phytoestrogens although I do not understand the articles most of the time because I have a bad tendency of scanning things instead of actually reading them as Erik knows from the many times I have scanned his articles without really reading them. This is because I have a lack of time and come on websites like this during my breaks because they interest me. I also want to start a beauty blog that helps women to become as healthy, feminine and at the same time strong, and beautiful as they can possibly be with whatever they were given by God. So far I have discovered the amazing effects of olive oil as a natural moisturizer and also the effects it has on skin if taken orally. I realized olive oil contains pretty good levels of phytoestrogens and wondered if there was a connection. So, I don't think I need to consult a doctor, I don't believe in going too far. I like natural remedies for anything and have thrown out my moisurizer since discovering olive oil. Probably the most unnatural things I use are: eye cream with low doses of retinol to prevent wrinkles, my face wash whatever it contains, certain makeups like eyeliners and cover up which are made out of who knows what I should look that up. Otherwise I use mineral makeup, I use olive oil as a moisturizer, I eat healthily and exercise and thats my ingredients to beauty. If you have any tips on phytoestrogens please let me know! I really want to know if they can make a woman appear more feminine or if they actually do the reverse. I am confused about that. I know they may be harmful if taken in high doses, but I think it is common sense to anyone that most things should be eaten in moderation and consuming slightly higher doses of plants containing phytoestrogens than your usual intake probably won't do any damage.
I still do not see a lot of masculinization in Charlize Theron's face especially in those photos where she is really young. If anyone can point out WHY her face is mascunilized and compare it to someone that has a MUCH more feminine face than Charlize please do so, you'd be my hero.
I am still wondering to what extent genes play a role in attraction and to what extent hormones do.
Might I also add, that it is pin-ups, not super models, that I thought to be beautiful and ideal. To this day I prefer their looks overall and so do most of the men I know. They often say, "Man, if only women really looked like that." Some men actually do believe that they are being decieved by the media. I really hope that Erik's endeavers are fruitful (no pun intended-or maybe I should have said fruitless[lol]). This is a really savvy and thought provoking site and am so glad I found it.
Oh and by the way: taking any estrogen supplements, even "herbal", or over the counter, should probably be discussed with your OB/GYN. I know that my mom was recommended them at menopause, but they interacted with other medicines she was taking and had to stop taking them.
While Miranda's nose deviates from "perfection", it is fine (meaning not hideous), as the rest of her features are relatively symmetrical. Symmetry is usually what is "required" when gauging one's attractiveness, masculine, or feminine. As for Charlize's face: she has beautiful symmetry, and extremely fine bones structure, as Erik's pointed out. Although I tend to agree with him, that she is not hyper feminine, she has the typical North European bone structure. She is South African, not French (someone said she was French and from what I understand, she isn't), and South Africans are predominantly Dutch (if I'm wrong, please let me know), meaning Nordic, or of a Nordic "sub-type". That would explain her fine, gracile features, and light coloring.
Visitor: after reading your long, lengthy post, I think that you are trying to convince yourself, not anyone else, that you're feminine. Regardless if your index finger is shorter than your ring finger, if you're built like a pin-up, or Lara Croft, I think it's safe to say that you're above average in the femininity department! I doubt that Erik can tell you anything conclusive, but you seem to be fixated on this. Feminine women can excel in math and science, can play with cars and be interested in pursuing athletics without being butch. You have spent so much time discussing this, and I'm sorry if my comments are unappreciated and uninvited, but you did post them on a public forum! Every woman can, from time to time, be a little masculine in some areas, but they're probably still feminine overall. Why don't you send Erik some pics, and contact him via e-mail, if you're looking for a thorough in-depth analysis.
As far as your pin-up pics, I loved them! Good luck.
As far as this article, it would be a "novel" approach if it were a little more subtle...lol. I'm also not sure that people would take the articles serioulsy if they were reading about the, for instance, economic crises in various nations, or the escalating tensions between country A and country B, if there were pictures of beautiful, scantily clad women in the columns. It is brilliant, but I think that a slightly more subtle approach would probably go over better. Then again, why not read about such things while appreciating a truly beautiful feminine woman. I guess there's only one way to find out....
Godis: I believe the link to higher estrogen, that is if you're referring to the "feminine" women that Erik features here, shows no corelation to a higher incidence of breast cancer. There are other factors, such as heredity, the use of oral contraceptives, numbers of live births, etc. that show a stronger corelation. I'm sorry, I know you asked this of Erik, but it gave me pause to think as well...
My stepmom is one of the most masculinized women that I've ever seen, and she had breast cancer. She survived it, thank gods, but an abundance of estrogen was definitely not the culprit in her case.
I think it is absurd that such a question was asked in the first place. I understand that the "personality" portion of the pageant is important, but asking one's views on gay marriage is akin to asking one's stance on abortion, the death penalty, etc. It is inappropriate and what the f#@* was Perez Hilton doing there, judging, in the first place? He is just some Hollywood gossip peddling ass who makes no significant contributions to the entertainment business. I applaud the honesty of Miss Prejean. I'm sorry that it cost her the crown, but then again, after being subjected to such nonsense, I'd think twice about what the politics of pageantry has done to that insitution, and then wonder if I'd really want to be a part of it at all. And why on earth are gays now trying to scandalize her further? That's a joke. Some, not all, of these "elitist" gays will stop at nothing to promote their agenda. They've already taken over fashion and much of the pop culture we enjoy. If you wish to engage in a certain lifestyle, than you have to accept that their are certain limitations upon making that choice. It's not punishment, it's reality.
Oh I see, with Charlize Theron's nose job you were referring to the nose job photos. No,that is not why I posted them up. I don't believe she had a nose job either. I put those up to show how feminine she was at a younger age as well. She was really feminine. I still can't get over the fact that you believe she has below average femininity in the face. I really can't. Look at her face. I mean seriously, it is extremely feminine. Look at her face when she is young.
and yes as she gets older she gets slightly more mascunilized,but I still believe her face to exhibit above average femininity, I really do.
It resembles this:
Might I also add people compare my body type to a pin-up girls as well, so I am assuming its feminine?
I believe my bones are probably smaller than Laras as well LOL and when I am more slender I appear even less athletic and more feminine although my body shape remains the same.
Might I add, I'm not kidding but I have a body like the character Lara Croft from Tombraider. So I can see how it may be a tad bit on the athletic side. However, my thighs are less muscular but they are shapely, my shoulders more rounded and slightly smaller although close in size, and my waist is almost as small but probably not quite as small. However, my waist is freakishly small. Also, my ribcage is probably the same size.
My backside is similar to hers. My face looks nothing like hers, lol. Hers is quite hideous
Also, can you please give me an example of a celebrity that has a really feminine face that you've never mentioned on the site. Very above average feminine qualities. Can you please point them out individually! Thanks!
For question 2, I don't mean higher doses of testosterone than estrogen, I mean it just indicates I have high testosterone levels. I do excel in sports,music,mathematics, and I am competitive etc. and these all seem to be more masculine features according to this article I read. Also, I have a high sex drive but I think my interest is based on the fact I am waiting for marriage and never had any. However, I am extremely feminine. Ever since I was a kid I was obsessed with the color pink,wearing dresses, primping myself, etc. I was your typically girly girl except I liked to play with cars too and got along with the boys just as well as with girls. Now I am extremely motherly and I can't wait to have kids. I would feel fufilled in life being a stay at home mom and taking care of the kids, house,and husband. I love gardening, and I have high test scores in the verbal and reading department all strong feminine qualities. I love clothes and makeup and interior decorating. etc. You get the drifT! Am I feminine or masculine or just really well balanced although my physical features are not balanced but appear very feminine? I have an hourglass shape and good hips and a backside, but I run extremely well despite that. Why is it I am fairly athletic(not super athletic) but don't have an athletic body?
Really? I find that Charlize Theron has a very feminine face? I don't see what is not feminine about it really, only that it sometimes looks mascunilized,and like I said I think many times with bad lighting or a bad hairstyle a very feminine womans face can even look masculine. I would say that the more overall feminine woman compared to Charlize Theron like Keeley Hazel and Megan Fox both have more masculine faces than Charlize Theron. Maybe I am biased because I think Charlize has a beautiful face for some reason. I never mentioned her having a nose job? She has a really cute nose, now Emily that is a good Nordic nose in my opinion.
Also, I'm not saying it is bad lighting that makes the VS models look masculine, just that the lighting they use emphasizes the masculinity they already have. It is obvious the goal of the designer is to masculinize them as much as possible.
I'm glad you responded because I have a few more questions for you if you could respond some time:
1. Do you think women who are naturally attractive and have high estrogen levels need to wear makeup? There have been studies that showed that with no makeup feminine women were preferred, but when makeup masked the effects of masculinization on the face (I don't know to what extent mascunilization can be masked with makeup honestly) those women were preferred almost equally to the feminine women. I am wondering because I do wear makeup. I have light eyelashes, my hair is now a dull darkblonde/light brown color and looks harsh against my pale skin, and even if I stop eating healthy for a week only it shows up on my skin straight away. So, I am wondering if I'm just ugly and that is why I need makeup or if makeup generally helps anyone including feminine women.
2.Do finger lengths determine how feminine or masculine someone is? I always believed myself to be a very feminine woman, since every time I walk in a room I can garauntee I will be the girl with the smallest waist, the hourglass figure, and usually even the girl with the largest breasts. This is among any type of population including Northern European women since the majority of the kids at my university are Caucasian and Northern European. However, despite that it seems that my index finger is shorter than my ring finger which suggests that I have higher testosterone levels than estrogen levels. I have small hands, they appear almost childlike. I am not underdeveloped, just really feminine like I said. My feet and hands are actually attractive, my hands are dainty and cute and my feet have a nice arch to them and they are small. I know masculinization usually shows up in your hands and feet if anything else so I don't understand if the finger length thing is accurate how I could have high testosterone levels. Unless of course I just have high levels of everything, although I doubt that is even possible. Is the finger length thing accurate? Am I really masculine and pseudo-feminine or something? I'm so confused, there is just no sign of any masculnization for me except the finger thing...
3. Can giving an adolescent girl estrogen, say something natural like phytoestrogens directly from plants, make her more attractive by the time she develops and is full grown? Is there a danger in this? If someone wants to have attractive boys and girls would they give the girls foods that mimick estrogen and not allow boys foods that mimick estrogen like soy, legumes, etc. Would phytoestrogens form plants make a full grown woman any more attractive? Does eating phytoestrogens in high doses actually reverse the effectss and make someone more masculine, while in small doses it works to femininize? I am asking this because I am starting a beauty blog and I don't know much about subject. I might not ever write anything about it, but if I do enough research I might add something in there and I would really really like your opinion because believe it or not I have come to learn a lot about femininity from this site. Whether I like it or not a lot of the stuff on here is true and it helps me a lot. I think even masculine women should emphasize any femininity they have and that is what my beauty blog is going to be about, getting in touch with your femininity no matter how you are. I'm not going to lie though I still disagree with a lot on this site, but it is the most helpful site about femininty I've come across. So please help thanks!
Erik,
It has become increasingly clear that we won't be able to come to a consensus on almost everything that we have discussed thus far, so let me just make a few closing remarks. You believe that there is an fundamental difference between a same-sex marriage and an opposite-sex marriage, and I believe the difference is negligible. These are simply opposing opinions, and we will have to agree to disagree.
Note: the 14th and 15th amendments are part of the constitution. They are not simply "changes" to the constitution. Once an amendment is passed it shares equal weight with any other article or amendment. The claim that homosexuals are more prone to pedophilia and to contract STDs is a myth. Most pedophiles are straight, and STDs can be contracted by anyone.
I think it is enough to document that the appearance of high fashion models is out of step with the majority's preferences. If you provide people with the information to support that claim, then young girls and women affected by fashion images may be convinced. If you make it clear that the fashion industry has an aesthetic that they use to sell their clothing, but it is not as aesthetic that appeals to most people outside of that context, then you have done your job. Why that aesthetic exists within that industry can be speculated upon, and if you're going to offer your theory, then at least balance it with other educated opinions. This will remove the appearance of bias from your argument and increase its efficacy.
I have enjoyed debating these issues with you, and I hope you have enjoyed it as well. I also hope you have felt that I have extended a level of respect to you despite our differences. For my part, I thank you for considering my points and not just dismissing them off-hand. Perhaps in the future I will return to the site again to see what new information you have posted. Until then, take care, and I will be looking forward to your response to these closing remarks.
Godis: Honey, if you wanted to show that if we look hard enough then we can find some type of masculinization in any woman, then you have failed. Masculinization is not denoted by a single feature but by how different parts come together or overall looks. Charlize Theron is not a feminine woman and neither does she have a face with clearly above average femininity among women of her own ethnic background. She has fine facial features, which add an element of pseudo-feminization to her face. This is why you can find pictures of her face where it looks feminine and others where it doesn’t looks so feminine (disproportionately her older pictures). Besides, she has not had a nose job, at least none that can be inferred from the photographs.
Lesha: The choice of onecomparison (e.g., Grace) is to show that the matter goes beyond curves since Grace doesn’t have much in terms of curves. And if you believe that I should be comparing Giselle Bundchen to “women that heterosexual men are KNOWN to find attractive such as porn stars,” then you should note that porn stars are a poor choice to infer the optimal preferences of heterosexual men.
Billy: It is not possible to have the meaning of equality extend to all situations. What if I am seeking models for advertising tanning lotions and an African applies and I reject the African? Would this be an example of racial discrimination? How many Africans purchase tanning lotion? To consider another example, let us say that the government decides to handle the societal burden of sexually transmitted infections (STIs). Since nonheterosexuals are disproportionately responsible for society’s STI burden, on what basis can heterosexual and nonheterosexual demographic groups be considered equivalent in this scenario? But if a homosexual and a heterosexual get a traffic ticket, then there is no reason why they should be treated differently. You cannot have equality extend to all situations because equality is not characteristic of all situations. Same-sex marriage is not an equality issue but a privilege issue that activists are claiming they have a right to.
You have incorrectly portrayed the marriage issue as matter of “whether or not it is constitutional to ban a legal agreement between two consenting adults simply because the majority, who will receive no harm from the agreement, do not approve.” Nothing prevents a homosexual couple from signing a wide variety of contracts between the two of them. But the contract you have mentioned is a very specific contract that comes with a pre-assigned package of rights/responsibilities/obligations, some not necessarily explicitly stated, that carries with it the approval of society and it is a contract that stems from what society values highly. This very specific contract has long been understood as between a man and a woman.
It is also misleading for you to state that the majority of southerners were against integration but that segregation was found to be unconstitutional. Are you not aware that the constitution had to be changed before segregation was found unconstitutional, and that this change was pushed by a hostile minority against an unwilling majority?
There is not enough space here to be discussing the nature of homosexuality and this is not the site for it. It should be obvious that if there were not plenty of unflattering correlates of homosexuality then there would be no need to ban free speech regarding homosexuality-related issues, which several nations do.
By describing marriage as something that has nothing to do with gender, you are coming up with a concept unshared by most people. Why does one have to prove that the union of two heterosexuals is different from a union of two homosexuals? What do “heterosexual” and “homosexual” tell you?
You said, “The incest example does not apply, and the very narrow scenario you proposed involving incest is a poor analogy, because sterile incestuous couples are not a recognized social group.” Again, the incest example was never meant to be analogous to same-sex marriage. It was simply to show that being consenting adults is insufficient.
People don’t see top models everywhere they go, but they extensively encounter them on TV and in magazines. The study by Donohoe et al. has nothing to do with anything refuting what is clear about the majority’s preferences regarding women’s looks. Donohoe et al. documented averageness as a correlate of beauty, which has been long known, but did not have the study design to extract other components of beauty, and used the wrong sets of women labeled as “super attractive.”
It is not enough to just document that the typical appearance of high-fashion models is inconsistent with majority preferences. One has to explain why. How else will I account for the discrepancy? And the why is also important when it comes to undermining the negative impact on some girls and women. If you just tell them that most people don’t think highly of high-fashion model looks, they could just respond by saying that fashion industry professionals know better than you what works. These girls and women need to be told about the reason why: male homosexual designers’ aesthetic preferences for the early-adolescent-boy look, and once they know about this, few would want to acquire looks to make themselves more pleasing to this demographic. This claim may seem outlandish to some but it is backed up a considerable amount of evidence: the top ranks of the fashion industry being dominated by homosexual men; the preference for female models not just very thin but also masculinized such that many of them bear an uncanny resemblance to boys in their early adolescence, especially when they start modeling in their early or mid teens; considerable evidence for a strong association between same-sex attraction and sexual interest in children, etc. People have proposed alternatives such as why a preference for very thin models or masculine looks, but the challenge is to explain both elements and also explain time trends. No alternative explanation regarding this matter is as comprehensive and parsimonious as mine, and I am by no means the first proponent of this notion.
Hmmm...blue eyes vs. brown? Mixed raced individuals have a fatal immune system flaw? Erik is the antichrist and Emily is his vile minion? I think this has gone waaaay off topic! Anyway, Erik said somewhere that for every one comment Emily posts there will be ten that oppose her, and that appears to be the case. There is absolutely nothing wrong with expressing pride for one's own race, ethnicity and nationality. It seems as though non-whites are not only allowed, but encouraged to be vocal in their "pride", but should a white girl do the same, then she is racist? This hardly seems fair. I have only begun to read through the message boards here, but have read the bulk of the articles. Funny how Erik exalts European (feminine) beauty, and is harrassed endlessly, but there are countless other sites on the net that exalt "ethnic" beauty, and they are praised. I, for one, am tired of the double standard. I admit that on a few occasions Emily did get a little heated, and may have allowed her frustration to get the best of her, but I can't say that I'd have done any differently. I'm not in any way insecure in my looks. It is a well known fact that there are countless numbers of beautiful women in Scandinavia, as well as in the other Northern and North Western parts of Europe, and above average beauty is the norm. It is an ideal that is emulated in all parts of the world. It is sad to consider, also, that the traits of Northern European beauty that I may pass along may one day be so recessive, that the beautiful coloring and features will cease to exist. I've heard a lot of people say blahblahblah, this won't happen, but that is not true. It is happening right now.
Emily doesn't need to post pics of Swedish models to show what Swedes look like, because that is what ordinary Swedes look like. When I have more time, I will post pics of all kinds of Northern European "normal" women(not models) to further prove the case.
Race mixing aside, as I don't believe my opinion on the issue will change other peoples minds, I am proud of my ethnicity, looks and features, and hope to not see them lost over time.
What people fail to realize is that native Europeans have every right to want to see their customs and way of life preserved, and I will stand by this statement, un-PC or not.
Grace Kelly does not have an oval face shape. It is a squared off face. She leans towards a diamond face shape actually, although she seems to have a combination of many different faces shapes. Again, I believe Megan Fox comes extremely close to an oval face shape, the ideal face shape. Compare to Grace Kelly's above:
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