"'And don’t delude yourself into thinking that lip augmentations or the application of mascara on the part of some Northern European women have anything to do with acquiring any part of your looks'.
You are clearly mistaken! I have been told this many times."
Erik I have known Nordic-type women who complain about their thin lips and see-through eyelashes when compared to Asians and Hispanics. Now there are many beautiful Nordic women but the ones who aren't try specifically to correct these features.
77wishes: Please accept my apology if this website has lowered your self-esteem. The intent of this site is not to undermine or enhance self-esteem, though some women (typically feminine or presumably feminine) have told me that they felt better about themselves after going through this site. I can come up with pictures of women with slim bodies or small hips or a wide ribcage or an angular face or some combination of these features that will be found appealing by most men and women. In other words, your combination of features does not necessarily make you unattractive to most people and certainly not ugly (a condition resulting from physical defects). You can make the most of your looks by living a healthy lifestyle, especially taking good care of your skin. The page that addresses improving looks isn’t just about weight, but also about exercise and skin care issues; look for updates to it in the form of articles tagged with “improving looks,” some of which address make-up for enhancing looks. Slimness has some pluses such as not having to deal with saggy breasts in one’s thirties and beyond, having less of a cellulite problem, etc. Masculinized women are also in a better position to give birth to masculine sons. The picture isn’t depressing. And you can either feel sad or make the most of what you have. Best wishes.
Just noting: Yes, Carrie Prejean isn’t feminine, but the article isn’t exactly about her but about the homosexual problem plaguing beauty pageants that the Carrie Prejean incident has made clearer to more people. In blowing up the incident, homosexual activists have assisted my endeavors, and for once I am grateful to them.
Erik I came along your website and my self esteem is so low now. I have masculine face and body, what can I do? I looked at your "Improving looks" page but none of that will work since I'm already slim (not disgusting skinny ewwww) but small hips, wide ribcage, angular face, what can I do I'm so ugly, help :(
I think the addition of these, especially Uldouz, Shaghayegh, Kim and Kristin would get rid of people saying "All of the women you said are attractive are just trashy x-rated pornstars, compared the 'classy' fashion models".
To be fair, Devon Aoki, Naomi Campbell and Adriana Lima look fine, they are still clearly female even without makeup, they do not look significantly masculinsed.
You speak of the objectivity of beauty, yet if beauty is so objective and if 'feminine females' (personally i would say a lot of the faces you showed were weak and unhealthy ) are so desired by men, then why do such beauties not have a mainstream outlet (which you have also stated)? The homosexual fashion designers right?
You esentially pinpoint the media as homosexual or 'non exclusive hetrosexuals', but you could just as easily make the assumption that the supposed variance between their values and those of the average joe population could be a class discreprancy. You have just abitrarily picked a contextual element, whithout exploring others.
Your site further implies that males and females have either been tricked by the fashion indistry into 'masculinaisation', or, in the case of males, are simply 'not exlcsive hetrosexuals'. Firstly, if beauty is as objective as you say, how could they be mislead?
And secondly, you assume, with no evidence, that any male who prefers the "masculinized" form, as most likely being 'not exclusive hetrosexuals'. This lack of evidence, alongst with childish name calling and framing biases, are littered throughout your site.
If beauty is so objective then how do you explain differences in perception of beauty apparent over time and accoss cultures? What biological foundations of beauty do you think exist (excluding the generally scietific concensus of symetry being attractive, which i note, your 'attractive women' section had deficencies of)?
More importantly, if hormonal optimisation makes a woman more beautiful, is the same not true for a men? If you do belive that is the case then why are commonly perceived beautiful males such as certain models and hollywood celebrities, not overwhelmingly masculine (not to say they are completly non masculine)? Is this due to homosexual women also running the media?
On a more personal level, i do feel that the majority of 'fashion models' you have presented are more attractive than your 'glamour models'. A lot of men i know would agree with me. From my own personal observations, so merely an opinion, i feel that the prefernce for beauty is much more defined by the persons cultural interest. Whilst some males i have seen who persue more blue-collar interests seem to favour your'glamour model' form, men who persue alternative cultures to this do not. A lot of males i know, including myself, would feel that the 'glamour models' you have displayed look 'trashy', showing that, to some extent, it is a class discourse which seperates them.
I do agree with you on some instances though, for example, giesele, in looking too masculine, however, your scientific method has been poor and biased, and i would agree with Brett's comment above.
Aslo, a few of your commetns about men only finding the swimsuit models sexy becuase they look like they would be easy to bed is a bit hypocritical seeing as your main source for 'glamour model' images seems to be from porn sites.
1. "Your remark about “sites on the internet run by racists, homophobes, wierdos etc etc.” is obviously directed toward me."
Why do you always think i am out to get you? No i was speaking generally and not referring to you.
2. "Your type resort to vile debating techniques of a different kind that I have enumerated elsewhere; techniques that are designed to frustrate your opponent and make them do something stupid, which you will then make an issue of. By hook or by crook you will not let your opponent win, and there is no room for this at this site, which is another reason why you must leave."
And what type of debating involves telling your "opponent" in nearly every message that he is annoying, a trouble maker, doesn't have the intelligence enough to understand the argument and indirectly referring to him when responding to other people in a negative context?
You are right Erik....I did bait Emily BUT i was only having fun as you could tell from the tone of the messages?
I am sorry Emily.
But saying that I can't understand why the burden of the blame is being put on my shoulders. I guess its just that i always think that people are responsible for their actions. One should learn self contol. Anyways Emily apologised recently (not to me) and i thanked her. So that is over.
3. Thank you for the comparison Erik :)
That helped me understand things better. I didn't realize that thing about the forehead. I thought it was a masculine trait to have a sloping forehead and a feminine trait to have a rounded and protuding forehead? nothing to do with facial derivity?
4. I am sorry, i didn't say that clearly...Yes i have a weaker chin but i do have a chin. I have seen people with non existant chins and was comparing mine with theirs i guess.
5. I don't have to compare my face to a North European because there is a resemblance? I never said my face resembled hers. You say Ethnic...I say feminine.
6. "And don’t delude yourself into thinking that lip augmentations or the application of mascara on the part of some Northern European women have anything to do with acquiring any part of your looks."
You are clearly mistaken! I have been told this many times.
7. Do i need to count how many times you have asked me to stop commenting here? Its at the end of every sentence! Do you really hate me that much? :(
Ok fine you win, your in control (I can imagine a smile appearing on your face). Good ... well that is all i want/wanted all along...people to be happy. Also i hope my pictures and comments can be useful to other people in understandig thier looks somewhat.
I wish you the best of Luck Erik. It was lots of fun interacting with you. Pity that you only saw me a certain way and i sometimes resorted to "foul methods" to get your attention. But then i am such a girl after all.
Don't think for once i hate or dislike you. I love you and Emily as well :)
All is forgiven....I think i am going to cry now....*sniff sniff*. Bye
Just Wondering: I have been attracted to lots of women from a variety of non-European ethnic backgrounds. Examples would be too numerous to mention here.
Peter: Why is it so difficult for you to understand that your comments are not welcome here and that you need to leave? You are wasting my time, contributing nothing of value and tying up the comments thread with useless, irrelevant issues. You need to stop commenting here.
You said you would rather use good language than Emily’s foul comparisons. The problem is that extremely foul arguments using good language are worse than less problematic arguments using foul language. This is one of the reasons why you need to leave. And Emily would never have used the foul comparison had it not been for your baiting. This is another reason why you need to leave.
I understand very well why you posted your picture, which Emily made negative comments on. Yes, you could have made bad remarks about Nordics but that is not your type. Your type resort to vile debating techniques of a different kind that I have enumerated elsewhere; techniques that are designed to frustrate your opponent and make them do something stupid, which you will then make an issue of. By hook or by crook you will not let your opponent win, and there is no room for this at this site, which is another reason why you must leave.
My analogy about the public behavior of a type of homosexual aptly describes your behavior at this site and is not any kind of ad hominem. It is telling that your response mentions, “I am not promiscous, not into animals, children, feces, rape etc etc.,” whereas none of these behaviors were described or alluded to in the analogy I made. Again, you are bringing in completely irrelevant charges and making it look like I am making these arguments. This is another reason why you need to stop commenting here.
You do not need to explicitly mention high-fashion models for me to make a comment about them. You must understand that this site makes an attempt to address high-end models. Many of the women posted in the attractive women section are high-end in their genre (glamour models) but not high-end as in comparable to top fashion models in the real world. These women will be disproportionately from the northern parts of Europe. This is the way it is.
None of either narrow faces, or well-developed chins, or thin lips, or prominent brow ridges by themselves are masculine, but masculinization does tend to narrow faces, makes the chin more eminent, the lips thinner and brow ridges more pronounced. This is why women who come from a narrower-faced ethny are not more masculine because their faces are narrower; whether they are more or less masculine needs to be determined by looking at multiple variables. And nothing can be inferred about the sexual orientation of men attracted to the faces of the women in the narrower-faced ethny because this preference does not pertain to masculinity-femininity. Similar statements can be made about other features such as lip thickness or chin development. I don’t want to be wasting my time on such issues, which have already been explained in some form or the other at this site. Stop commenting here.
You think that something is wrong with my vision if I am seeing a big mouth (I said more protruding mouth because of more ancestral bone structure) and weak chin in you? You fool, you must stop commenting here. Don’t challenge me on looks.
The following comparison should lay the matter to rest. The Northern European man chosen has below average masculinity (he is personally known to me) yet note that his mouth is retracted compared to yours, his chin better developed and his forehead more projecting and rounder. Your entire face is clearly much more ancestral. More ancestral does not require more ancestral on all counts. You don’t need to have a powerfully developed gonial region in order to have an ancestral jaw structure, which yours clearly is.
Again, I don’t understand why you wish to compare your features to those of Northern Europeans because there is no resemblance. You said because you can. Yes you can, but not here. And don’t delude yourself into thinking that lip augmentations or the application of mascara on the part of some Northern European women have anything to do with acquiring any part of your looks.
Regarding comments about how derived your face is compared to the woman you compared yourself to, this comment was necessary to explain the stupidity of your comparison. You attempted to describe as more feminine-looking some of your features that are properly described as more ancestral looking because the woman is any day more feminine than you. This is clearer in the comparison with the Northern European man because he, like you, has below average masculinity.
Now leave this site alone. This site is not about your looks, your comments are not welcome and you should have the courtesy to not waste our time with your unwanted comments.
Your remark about “sites on the internet run by racists, homophobes, wierdos etc etc.” is obviously directed toward me. You can save yourself the trouble of being offended by running away from these sites. At least avoid this one in the future.
She does visibly have some hips going on, which I agree makes her differ strikingly from the masculine fashion models. She does have a more feminine face too. I don't think she's attractive though and I don't think she looks different from typical southern europeans; she looks italian to me.
I really don't know that I believe she's healthy. I know plenty of very very thin people who are naturally like that and I have also seen eating disordered people who are BIGGER than those thin people but still visibly unhealthy. You can tell by the bone structure and the gauntness of the face, usually. Her upper arms are thinner than her lower, her hip bones look like weapons.
Also Erik- did you ever get my email? It's the same one as I listed here, and I wanted to know if you could evaluate my own femininity among other things. I'd appreciate it. I emailed you a week and a half to two weeks ago, I believe.
I personally think that Giselle is overrated, but do you have any evidence save his preference for fashion models that her husband Tom Brady is a "non-lifetime exclusive heterosexual"?
He's a very handsome, famous man, masculine from head to toe and he could have any one of your cute but tacky glamour models. In fact I'm sure he's had several of them probably at the same time, but he chose to marry Giselle.
Brownie locks,
Yes i keep wondering myself...why i keep coming back here. To be honest i do enjoy this site and have learned some valuable information. Yes there are many sites on the internet run by racists, homophobes, wierdos etc etc. I do visit some sometimes but not because i enjoy them BUT to get an idea of the amount of hate/prejudice that exists...just out of curiousity. I will take your suggestion into consideration :)
Erik,
I am going to adress your comments from the other page here as well.
I charge you as GUILTY of all that you accuse me of BUT obviously this isn't an "equal arena". You think of me as physically and mentally inferior for one and second this is your site so you can control/do/warn etc as you please.
1. "You have stooped to much lower levels than Emily. Nasty comparisons (such as used by Emily at her most frustrated) are not the standard by which the lowliness of an argument is judged. One could use good language and fill one’s arguments with digressions, non sequiturs, ad hominem, etc. and make the argument extremely foul, which is precisely what you have done."
I would MUCH rather use "good language" instead of resorting to nasty comparisons expecially when adressing ethnic groups/populations.
2. "You have the gall to state that all you did was post a picture of you smiling and this made Emily state that your skin reminds her of the color of feces. This is blatant falsehood."
Pity that you didn't understand what i was trying to say.
What i was trying to tell you is that AFTER Emily made the nasty comments, i could have easily spiraled down as well and made nasty comments about Nordics BUT instead i posted a picture of me smiling to "ease" the situation but in her subsequent posts she continued talking about...
3. "But your behavior is not that of walking in public while dressed flamboyantly, but of an obvious homosexual going around in public, loudly proclaiming all the homo-fun the breeders are missing out on, and offering men passing by his sexual services for a taste of homo-heaven."
Is this an example of ad hominem? What is this?
NO Erik, that statement doesn't describe me. But while we are at it...I am not promiscous, not into animals, children, feces, rape etc etc.
4. "Who is talking about high-end models? This website focuses on a lot of them and you are picking on these women. High-end models may be masculine or feminine. In any case, they are disproportionately Northern European."
I don't want to go back and post everything BUT what is this? I never mentioned High end fashion models. I talked about the masculine looking women in the attractive women section. Only one or two are high end models. Only one of them looks masculine. But all the women whose picture i posted are not high end models BUT look Nordic/North European. Which is what i asked you!!!!
You seem to like Nordic/North European faces even when they show masculinization in the form of narrow faces, well developed chins, thin lips, more prominent brow ridges etc.
When talking about the example of the light (masculine) European and dark (feminine) European what i was trying to convey was that European heterosexual men that prefer the lighter European must be attracted to masculinization because these features that i mentioned above....narrow faces, thin lips etc are most often found in North European women. There must be a correlation between North European men's preference Masculine faces. You are a good example of this.
So in other words isn't there a contradiction?
5. "And you don’t seem to understand what robusticity is about. You have posted your pictures from many angles except the front. You know why: your nose is far from fine. And look at your protruding mouth in side view, mainly because of the more ancestral/robust skeletal structure in the region. Parts of your face are not gracile. And parts of your face, such as the less developed chin, are not exactly an example of a finer feature but the weaker chin is partly a more ancestral condition that tends to go with a more protruding mouth (you have to consider your ancestry)."
Interesting since you have adressed my looks somewhat let me clarify some things.
Don't lie. A more ancestral combination would be weak chin, big mouth and sharp/massive gonial/jaws. But what do you see here? What does a combination of gracile jaws and more "feminine" mouth area illustarte?
If you think i have a weak chin or big mouth then there must be something wrong with your vision.
Also the information that you mentioned about my mouth was interesting yet useless!
Tell me honestly when European women seek to augment their lips to either make them fuller or restore youth...do they have the following in mind? Notice that my lips are full but not broad on my face. I have a rose bud mouth. People say i have feminine lips and point out the cupid's bow shape on the top lip. Are my lips well within the normal variation in Europe? Sweden?...since they seem to have full lips often.
Also tell me when Nordic women put eye makeup, mascara, or put fake eye lash extensions are they trying to emulate this?
People have often asked me if i put mascara/eye liner and if i also put lip liner. Most of these comments come from North Europeans, what does one expect? This population has to use make up to enhance features i possess naturally.
As well contrary to what people might think...I do TAN! I am lighter in the winter and darker in the summer. Also i have rosy cheeks many times and i do blush. Sometimes my cheeks get red and people ask if i have make up on. Not sure if you can make out the difference in this pic?
Also note my cheekbones ... feminine? Forehead nose region...feminine?
You have made a comment about me not posting my frontal face pic and mentioned the reason i have not done this is because i have a huge nose (far from fine). Baiting much?
What do you expect...that in order to prove you wrong i will post one?
You really think that, that could be the only reason? could it be related to protecting my identity?
* look at the next post
To answer your question about Why i would compare myself to a North European? Because i can!
I can beat some of the man faces when it comes to beauty and femininity :)
I see you have mentioned something about the woman's face being overall much derived than mine? foul debating?
Where did i mention anything about my face being more or less derived than hers?
Also since when does overall face derivity come into the equation when talking about feminity? Overall derived face would also mean a more projecting nose and chin, thinner lips, narrower face etc. But then does that mean more feminine?
I asked you a simple Q about femininity...not how derived my face is or what my ancestry is.
In the end, the take home message is that i am a "feminine" looking male and some ethnic traits can actually result in one looking more feminine which i hope i illustrated?
link | Submitted by Erik on Sat, 01/10/2009 - 23:45.
"The Aryans were a European people that migrated to the region and subsequently disappeared as a distinct ethnic group. Today it is rare to find people in India that would look Northern European if they had white skin"
Erik,
Aryans=Iran=land of aryans
So the aryans were europeans from the geographical region of europe and emigrated from europe to iran/aryan and other such places india as i have read in many places that aryans were origionally from iran?
"You mentioned long noses being an Aryan characteristic shared by Europeans, Indians and North Africans. If nose length is considered in relation to face length, among these populations, the shortest noses will disproportionately be found in India and the longest in some Middle Eastern populations. Skull, face and nose lengths are hardly features with which to infer shared ancestry. Many more elements should be considered".
Europeans dont have long noses as in middle eastern long, not on average anyway, more so short to medium length.
She does not bleach her skin, fool. Not all black people are the same tone. And people first started to see Tyra when she was like 17, so of course her boobs would've grown since then. And also, since when do white woman on average have larger boobs than black women? I've never heard that statistic....
I hate how people expect celebrities to look exactly the same as they did when they were 18 or 17 as they do now. People's bodies obviously change, especially when they're still kids! Duhhh....
Brown and even dark-brown eyes are warm toned as opposed to blue eyes which are cool toned. Blue eyes actually often look hard, because they have such a cool tone to them. Especially if they are light. Brown eyes have warm tones in them such as reds, oranges, specks of yellow. Even the really dark ones that appear black are warm toned. I find black eyes attractive actually, and especially on caucasians because they are exotic on caucasians. My cousin on my German side has very neat features. She has really really light blonde hair and really dark brown-black eyes. She looks good pale or tan and can wear almost any color. Her boyfriend is opposite in that he has blue eyes and dark brown hair. Interestingly she attracts guys with disharmonous features, and she has disharmonous features herself.
You keep using this word ROMANTIC. I know the definition of romantic, but I usually associate it with latin looks. Latin looks are warm but dangerous, sexy but soft as well. I connect romantic to Italian, Spanish, French. Interestingly enough I would have to say those men AND women are generally very attractive. Nordic women are attractive too and I would say between Latin and Nordic women there is little competition. The only thing I would say is that Latin women have a slight upperhand. This is because take myself and my one cousin for example. She could walk out of the house with no mascara. Although, she doesn't look as great without it, she still looks good, and the natural look is good for her. I can't walk out of the house without mascara. You could barely tell I have eyelashes without it because they get so blonde by the tip you can't see them. There you go.
Honestly, romantic to me means flowing,smooth,soft,. There is little romantic about Nordics. The languages they are associated with, their artwork, etc. Similarly, they DO NOT have more romantic looks than Latins. This doesn't mean a Nordic woman cannot look romantic. It just means that more Latin women will look "romantic" compared to Nordic in my opinion. In describing Nordic women I would go with ethereal or angelic. Than again it doesnt mean a Latin woman can't look ethereal and Nordic woman can't look romantic. I think it depends on the individual more than the race to determine this.
Either way, dark brown eyes are not HARD. Light blue eyes are. And no offense to people with light blue eyes. I've dated guys with light blue eyes and LOVED them. I know people that don't love them. I knew a guy who wouldn't date women with blue eyes. He would date blondes, just not with blue eyes, so he wasn't against Nords or anything lol. I always thought this was weird and I asked him why he hates blue eyes. He told me they just didn't look healthy. I never got that until I noticed grandmas eyes. They used to be a dark hazel and now they are a light green. I associate them with her aging. For almost everyone eyes lighten with age. Therefore, you can see why someone can see light eyes as "unhealthy". However, the majority of people consider blue eyes more attractive than brown because they are more exotic. However, brown eyes can be exotic too,it depends how they are matched. My cousins brown eyes are exotic. The blonde and blue gene often stick together during the cross over period, so having brown eyes and blonde hair is rare. Having blue eyes and blonde hair is common.
My eyes are hazel and they are light, but not as light as blue eyes. Blue eyes seem the lightest, with few exceptions where some people have really dark blue eyes. Like Heidi Montag for example. However, I actually prefer light blue eyes, even in girls. I don't care if they look hard, and really if they have a bit of green they look less hard. And really, it depends on the rest of someone's features. Blue eyes wont look hard simply because of the color, if the girl has soft features, blue eyes will look sof ttoo
This is often at the expense of whites, who most of the time will have much more beautiful children with another white person, not to mention that the gene pool will be corrupted and fewer truly white children will be born in the future if we increase the race mixing.
What is truly white? white white? If so, Europeans have never been known as the whitest people in the world.
"'And don’t delude yourself into thinking that lip augmentations or the application of mascara on the part of some Northern European women have anything to do with acquiring any part of your looks'.
You are clearly mistaken! I have been told this many times."
Erik I have known Nordic-type women who complain about their thin lips and see-through eyelashes when compared to Asians and Hispanics. Now there are many beautiful Nordic women but the ones who aren't try specifically to correct these features.
77wishes: Please accept my apology if this website has lowered your self-esteem. The intent of this site is not to undermine or enhance self-esteem, though some women (typically feminine or presumably feminine) have told me that they felt better about themselves after going through this site. I can come up with pictures of women with slim bodies or small hips or a wide ribcage or an angular face or some combination of these features that will be found appealing by most men and women. In other words, your combination of features does not necessarily make you unattractive to most people and certainly not ugly (a condition resulting from physical defects). You can make the most of your looks by living a healthy lifestyle, especially taking good care of your skin. The page that addresses improving looks isn’t just about weight, but also about exercise and skin care issues; look for updates to it in the form of articles tagged with “improving looks,” some of which address make-up for enhancing looks. Slimness has some pluses such as not having to deal with saggy breasts in one’s thirties and beyond, having less of a cellulite problem, etc. Masculinized women are also in a better position to give birth to masculine sons. The picture isn’t depressing. And you can either feel sad or make the most of what you have. Best wishes.
Just noting: Yes, Carrie Prejean isn’t feminine, but the article isn’t exactly about her but about the homosexual problem plaguing beauty pageants that the Carrie Prejean incident has made clearer to more people. In blowing up the incident, homosexual activists have assisted my endeavors, and for once I am grateful to them.
stupid article. goes nowhere.
You don't think she looks like too masculine to be in a beauty pageant?
Erik I came along your website and my self esteem is so low now. I have masculine face and body, what can I do? I looked at your "Improving looks" page but none of that will work since I'm already slim (not disgusting skinny ewwww) but small hips, wide ribcage, angular face, what can I do I'm so ugly, help :(
Erik:
What about the addition of these women to the attractive women section:
1. Yurizan Beltran
2. Uldouz Gharehchaei
3. Shaghayegh (Claudia Lynx)
4. Kim Kardashian (No Makeup: http://withoutmake.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/kim-kardashian9.jpg)
5. Kristin Kreuk?
I think the addition of these, especially Uldouz, Shaghayegh, Kim and Kristin would get rid of people saying "All of the women you said are attractive are just trashy x-rated pornstars, compared the 'classy' fashion models".
Rhea Henderson, Missy Ryder and Eva Herziogova stand out the most masculine
Although here is one such place where they don't agree with this site:
http://www.thefashionspot.com/forums/f96/sexy-fashion-models-masculine-45504.html
But the rest of them look like men, maybe some of them are even attractive to women!
To be fair, Devon Aoki, Naomi Campbell and Adriana Lima look fine, they are still clearly female even without makeup, they do not look significantly masculinsed.
You speak of the objectivity of beauty, yet if beauty is so objective and if 'feminine females' (personally i would say a lot of the faces you showed were weak and unhealthy ) are so desired by men, then why do such beauties not have a mainstream outlet (which you have also stated)? The homosexual fashion designers right?
You esentially pinpoint the media as homosexual or 'non exclusive hetrosexuals', but you could just as easily make the assumption that the supposed variance between their values and those of the average joe population could be a class discreprancy. You have just abitrarily picked a contextual element, whithout exploring others.
Your site further implies that males and females have either been tricked by the fashion indistry into 'masculinaisation', or, in the case of males, are simply 'not exlcsive hetrosexuals'. Firstly, if beauty is as objective as you say, how could they be mislead?
And secondly, you assume, with no evidence, that any male who prefers the "masculinized" form, as most likely being 'not exclusive hetrosexuals'. This lack of evidence, alongst with childish name calling and framing biases, are littered throughout your site.
If beauty is so objective then how do you explain differences in perception of beauty apparent over time and accoss cultures? What biological foundations of beauty do you think exist (excluding the generally scietific concensus of symetry being attractive, which i note, your 'attractive women' section had deficencies of)?
More importantly, if hormonal optimisation makes a woman more beautiful, is the same not true for a men? If you do belive that is the case then why are commonly perceived beautiful males such as certain models and hollywood celebrities, not overwhelmingly masculine (not to say they are completly non masculine)? Is this due to homosexual women also running the media?
On a more personal level, i do feel that the majority of 'fashion models' you have presented are more attractive than your 'glamour models'. A lot of men i know would agree with me. From my own personal observations, so merely an opinion, i feel that the prefernce for beauty is much more defined by the persons cultural interest. Whilst some males i have seen who persue more blue-collar interests seem to favour your'glamour model' form, men who persue alternative cultures to this do not. A lot of males i know, including myself, would feel that the 'glamour models' you have displayed look 'trashy', showing that, to some extent, it is a class discourse which seperates them.
I do agree with you on some instances though, for example, giesele, in looking too masculine, however, your scientific method has been poor and biased, and i would agree with Brett's comment above.
Aslo, a few of your commetns about men only finding the swimsuit models sexy becuase they look like they would be easy to bed is a bit hypocritical seeing as your main source for 'glamour model' images seems to be from porn sites.
Erik,
1. "Your remark about “sites on the internet run by racists, homophobes, wierdos etc etc.” is obviously directed toward me."
Why do you always think i am out to get you? No i was speaking generally and not referring to you.
2. "Your type resort to vile debating techniques of a different kind that I have enumerated elsewhere; techniques that are designed to frustrate your opponent and make them do something stupid, which you will then make an issue of. By hook or by crook you will not let your opponent win, and there is no room for this at this site, which is another reason why you must leave."
And what type of debating involves telling your "opponent" in nearly every message that he is annoying, a trouble maker, doesn't have the intelligence enough to understand the argument and indirectly referring to him when responding to other people in a negative context?
You are right Erik....I did bait Emily BUT i was only having fun as you could tell from the tone of the messages?
I am sorry Emily.
But saying that I can't understand why the burden of the blame is being put on my shoulders. I guess its just that i always think that people are responsible for their actions. One should learn self contol. Anyways Emily apologised recently (not to me) and i thanked her. So that is over.
3. Thank you for the comparison Erik :)
That helped me understand things better. I didn't realize that thing about the forehead. I thought it was a masculine trait to have a sloping forehead and a feminine trait to have a rounded and protuding forehead? nothing to do with facial derivity?
4. I am sorry, i didn't say that clearly...Yes i have a weaker chin but i do have a chin. I have seen people with non existant chins and was comparing mine with theirs i guess.
5. I don't have to compare my face to a North European because there is a resemblance? I never said my face resembled hers. You say Ethnic...I say feminine.
6. "And don’t delude yourself into thinking that lip augmentations or the application of mascara on the part of some Northern European women have anything to do with acquiring any part of your looks."
You are clearly mistaken! I have been told this many times.
7. Do i need to count how many times you have asked me to stop commenting here? Its at the end of every sentence! Do you really hate me that much? :(
Ok fine you win, your in control (I can imagine a smile appearing on your face). Good ... well that is all i want/wanted all along...people to be happy. Also i hope my pictures and comments can be useful to other people in understandig thier looks somewhat.
I wish you the best of Luck Erik. It was lots of fun interacting with you. Pity that you only saw me a certain way and i sometimes resorted to "foul methods" to get your attention. But then i am such a girl after all.
Don't think for once i hate or dislike you. I love you and Emily as well :)
All is forgiven....I think i am going to cry now....*sniff sniff*. Bye
What a pile of pseudoscientific drivel.
Oh so many fakes out there! Great posts, THANK YOU SO MUCH!
Just Wondering: I have been attracted to lots of women from a variety of non-European ethnic backgrounds. Examples would be too numerous to mention here.
Peter: Why is it so difficult for you to understand that your comments are not welcome here and that you need to leave? You are wasting my time, contributing nothing of value and tying up the comments thread with useless, irrelevant issues. You need to stop commenting here.
You said you would rather use good language than Emily’s foul comparisons. The problem is that extremely foul arguments using good language are worse than less problematic arguments using foul language. This is one of the reasons why you need to leave. And Emily would never have used the foul comparison had it not been for your baiting. This is another reason why you need to leave.
I understand very well why you posted your picture, which Emily made negative comments on. Yes, you could have made bad remarks about Nordics but that is not your type. Your type resort to vile debating techniques of a different kind that I have enumerated elsewhere; techniques that are designed to frustrate your opponent and make them do something stupid, which you will then make an issue of. By hook or by crook you will not let your opponent win, and there is no room for this at this site, which is another reason why you must leave.
My analogy about the public behavior of a type of homosexual aptly describes your behavior at this site and is not any kind of ad hominem. It is telling that your response mentions, “I am not promiscous, not into animals, children, feces, rape etc etc.,” whereas none of these behaviors were described or alluded to in the analogy I made. Again, you are bringing in completely irrelevant charges and making it look like I am making these arguments. This is another reason why you need to stop commenting here.
You do not need to explicitly mention high-fashion models for me to make a comment about them. You must understand that this site makes an attempt to address high-end models. Many of the women posted in the attractive women section are high-end in their genre (glamour models) but not high-end as in comparable to top fashion models in the real world. These women will be disproportionately from the northern parts of Europe. This is the way it is.
None of either narrow faces, or well-developed chins, or thin lips, or prominent brow ridges by themselves are masculine, but masculinization does tend to narrow faces, makes the chin more eminent, the lips thinner and brow ridges more pronounced. This is why women who come from a narrower-faced ethny are not more masculine because their faces are narrower; whether they are more or less masculine needs to be determined by looking at multiple variables. And nothing can be inferred about the sexual orientation of men attracted to the faces of the women in the narrower-faced ethny because this preference does not pertain to masculinity-femininity. Similar statements can be made about other features such as lip thickness or chin development. I don’t want to be wasting my time on such issues, which have already been explained in some form or the other at this site. Stop commenting here.
You think that something is wrong with my vision if I am seeing a big mouth (I said more protruding mouth because of more ancestral bone structure) and weak chin in you? You fool, you must stop commenting here. Don’t challenge me on looks.
The following comparison should lay the matter to rest. The Northern European man chosen has below average masculinity (he is personally known to me) yet note that his mouth is retracted compared to yours, his chin better developed and his forehead more projecting and rounder. Your entire face is clearly much more ancestral. More ancestral does not require more ancestral on all counts. You don’t need to have a powerfully developed gonial region in order to have an ancestral jaw structure, which yours clearly is.
Again, I don’t understand why you wish to compare your features to those of Northern Europeans because there is no resemblance. You said because you can. Yes you can, but not here. And don’t delude yourself into thinking that lip augmentations or the application of mascara on the part of some Northern European women have anything to do with acquiring any part of your looks.
Regarding comments about how derived your face is compared to the woman you compared yourself to, this comment was necessary to explain the stupidity of your comparison. You attempted to describe as more feminine-looking some of your features that are properly described as more ancestral looking because the woman is any day more feminine than you. This is clearer in the comparison with the Northern European man because he, like you, has below average masculinity.
Now leave this site alone. This site is not about your looks, your comments are not welcome and you should have the courtesy to not waste our time with your unwanted comments.
Your remark about “sites on the internet run by racists, homophobes, wierdos etc etc.” is obviously directed toward me. You can save yourself the trouble of being offended by running away from these sites. At least avoid this one in the future.
She does visibly have some hips going on, which I agree makes her differ strikingly from the masculine fashion models. She does have a more feminine face too. I don't think she's attractive though and I don't think she looks different from typical southern europeans; she looks italian to me.
I really don't know that I believe she's healthy. I know plenty of very very thin people who are naturally like that and I have also seen eating disordered people who are BIGGER than those thin people but still visibly unhealthy. You can tell by the bone structure and the gauntness of the face, usually. Her upper arms are thinner than her lower, her hip bones look like weapons.
Also Erik- did you ever get my email? It's the same one as I listed here, and I wanted to know if you could evaluate my own femininity among other things. I'd appreciate it. I emailed you a week and a half to two weeks ago, I believe.
I personally think that Giselle is overrated, but do you have any evidence save his preference for fashion models that her husband Tom Brady is a "non-lifetime exclusive heterosexual"?
He's a very handsome, famous man, masculine from head to toe and he could have any one of your cute but tacky glamour models. In fact I'm sure he's had several of them probably at the same time, but he chose to marry Giselle.
Brownie locks,
Yes i keep wondering myself...why i keep coming back here. To be honest i do enjoy this site and have learned some valuable information. Yes there are many sites on the internet run by racists, homophobes, wierdos etc etc. I do visit some sometimes but not because i enjoy them BUT to get an idea of the amount of hate/prejudice that exists...just out of curiousity. I will take your suggestion into consideration :)
Erik,
I am going to adress your comments from the other page here as well.
I charge you as GUILTY of all that you accuse me of BUT obviously this isn't an "equal arena". You think of me as physically and mentally inferior for one and second this is your site so you can control/do/warn etc as you please.
1. "You have stooped to much lower levels than Emily. Nasty comparisons (such as used by Emily at her most frustrated) are not the standard by which the lowliness of an argument is judged. One could use good language and fill one’s arguments with digressions, non sequiturs, ad hominem, etc. and make the argument extremely foul, which is precisely what you have done."
I would MUCH rather use "good language" instead of resorting to nasty comparisons expecially when adressing ethnic groups/populations.
2. "You have the gall to state that all you did was post a picture of you smiling and this made Emily state that your skin reminds her of the color of feces. This is blatant falsehood."
Pity that you didn't understand what i was trying to say.
What i was trying to tell you is that AFTER Emily made the nasty comments, i could have easily spiraled down as well and made nasty comments about Nordics BUT instead i posted a picture of me smiling to "ease" the situation but in her subsequent posts she continued talking about...
3. "But your behavior is not that of walking in public while dressed flamboyantly, but of an obvious homosexual going around in public, loudly proclaiming all the homo-fun the breeders are missing out on, and offering men passing by his sexual services for a taste of homo-heaven."
Is this an example of ad hominem? What is this?
NO Erik, that statement doesn't describe me. But while we are at it...I am not promiscous, not into animals, children, feces, rape etc etc.
4. "Who is talking about high-end models? This website focuses on a lot of them and you are picking on these women. High-end models may be masculine or feminine. In any case, they are disproportionately Northern European."
I don't want to go back and post everything BUT what is this? I never mentioned High end fashion models. I talked about the masculine looking women in the attractive women section. Only one or two are high end models. Only one of them looks masculine. But all the women whose picture i posted are not high end models BUT look Nordic/North European. Which is what i asked you!!!!
You seem to like Nordic/North European faces even when they show masculinization in the form of narrow faces, well developed chins, thin lips, more prominent brow ridges etc.
When talking about the example of the light (masculine) European and dark (feminine) European what i was trying to convey was that European heterosexual men that prefer the lighter European must be attracted to masculinization because these features that i mentioned above....narrow faces, thin lips etc are most often found in North European women. There must be a correlation between North European men's preference Masculine faces. You are a good example of this.
So in other words isn't there a contradiction?
5. "And you don’t seem to understand what robusticity is about. You have posted your pictures from many angles except the front. You know why: your nose is far from fine. And look at your protruding mouth in side view, mainly because of the more ancestral/robust skeletal structure in the region. Parts of your face are not gracile. And parts of your face, such as the less developed chin, are not exactly an example of a finer feature but the weaker chin is partly a more ancestral condition that tends to go with a more protruding mouth (you have to consider your ancestry)."
Interesting since you have adressed my looks somewhat let me clarify some things.
Don't lie. A more ancestral combination would be weak chin, big mouth and sharp/massive gonial/jaws. But what do you see here? What does a combination of gracile jaws and more "feminine" mouth area illustarte?
If you think i have a weak chin or big mouth then there must be something wrong with your vision.
Also the information that you mentioned about my mouth was interesting yet useless!
Tell me honestly when European women seek to augment their lips to either make them fuller or restore youth...do they have the following in mind? Notice that my lips are full but not broad on my face. I have a rose bud mouth. People say i have feminine lips and point out the cupid's bow shape on the top lip. Are my lips well within the normal variation in Europe? Sweden?...since they seem to have full lips often.
Also tell me when Nordic women put eye makeup, mascara, or put fake eye lash extensions are they trying to emulate this?
People have often asked me if i put mascara/eye liner and if i also put lip liner. Most of these comments come from North Europeans, what does one expect? This population has to use make up to enhance features i possess naturally.
As well contrary to what people might think...I do TAN! I am lighter in the winter and darker in the summer. Also i have rosy cheeks many times and i do blush. Sometimes my cheeks get red and people ask if i have make up on. Not sure if you can make out the difference in this pic?
Also note my cheekbones ... feminine? Forehead nose region...feminine?
You have made a comment about me not posting my frontal face pic and mentioned the reason i have not done this is because i have a huge nose (far from fine). Baiting much?
What do you expect...that in order to prove you wrong i will post one?
You really think that, that could be the only reason? could it be related to protecting my identity?
* look at the next post
To answer your question about Why i would compare myself to a North European? Because i can!
I can beat some of the man faces when it comes to beauty and femininity :)
I see you have mentioned something about the woman's face being overall much derived than mine? foul debating?
Where did i mention anything about my face being more or less derived than hers?
Also since when does overall face derivity come into the equation when talking about feminity? Overall derived face would also mean a more projecting nose and chin, thinner lips, narrower face etc. But then does that mean more feminine?
I asked you a simple Q about femininity...not how derived my face is or what my ancestry is.
In the end, the take home message is that i am a "feminine" looking male and some ethnic traits can actually result in one looking more feminine which i hope i illustrated?
link | Submitted by Erik on Sat, 01/10/2009 - 23:45.
"The Aryans were a European people that migrated to the region and subsequently disappeared as a distinct ethnic group. Today it is rare to find people in India that would look Northern European if they had white skin"
Erik,
Aryans=Iran=land of aryans
So the aryans were europeans from the geographical region of europe and emigrated from europe to iran/aryan and other such places india as i have read in many places that aryans were origionally from iran?
"You mentioned long noses being an Aryan characteristic shared by Europeans, Indians and North Africans. If nose length is considered in relation to face length, among these populations, the shortest noses will disproportionately be found in India and the longest in some Middle Eastern populations. Skull, face and nose lengths are hardly features with which to infer shared ancestry. Many more elements should be considered".
Europeans dont have long noses as in middle eastern long, not on average anyway, more so short to medium length.
She does not bleach her skin, fool. Not all black people are the same tone. And people first started to see Tyra when she was like 17, so of course her boobs would've grown since then. And also, since when do white woman on average have larger boobs than black women? I've never heard that statistic....
I hate how people expect celebrities to look exactly the same as they did when they were 18 or 17 as they do now. People's bodies obviously change, especially when they're still kids! Duhhh....
yuk that girl is disgusting
Brown eyes-Dark eyes are a correlate of beauty not light eyes, green, blue, grey etc... eyes
Emily,
Brown and even dark-brown eyes are warm toned as opposed to blue eyes which are cool toned. Blue eyes actually often look hard, because they have such a cool tone to them. Especially if they are light. Brown eyes have warm tones in them such as reds, oranges, specks of yellow. Even the really dark ones that appear black are warm toned. I find black eyes attractive actually, and especially on caucasians because they are exotic on caucasians. My cousin on my German side has very neat features. She has really really light blonde hair and really dark brown-black eyes. She looks good pale or tan and can wear almost any color. Her boyfriend is opposite in that he has blue eyes and dark brown hair. Interestingly she attracts guys with disharmonous features, and she has disharmonous features herself.
You keep using this word ROMANTIC. I know the definition of romantic, but I usually associate it with latin looks. Latin looks are warm but dangerous, sexy but soft as well. I connect romantic to Italian, Spanish, French. Interestingly enough I would have to say those men AND women are generally very attractive. Nordic women are attractive too and I would say between Latin and Nordic women there is little competition. The only thing I would say is that Latin women have a slight upperhand. This is because take myself and my one cousin for example. She could walk out of the house with no mascara. Although, she doesn't look as great without it, she still looks good, and the natural look is good for her. I can't walk out of the house without mascara. You could barely tell I have eyelashes without it because they get so blonde by the tip you can't see them. There you go.
Honestly, romantic to me means flowing,smooth,soft,. There is little romantic about Nordics. The languages they are associated with, their artwork, etc. Similarly, they DO NOT have more romantic looks than Latins. This doesn't mean a Nordic woman cannot look romantic. It just means that more Latin women will look "romantic" compared to Nordic in my opinion. In describing Nordic women I would go with ethereal or angelic. Than again it doesnt mean a Latin woman can't look ethereal and Nordic woman can't look romantic. I think it depends on the individual more than the race to determine this.
Either way, dark brown eyes are not HARD. Light blue eyes are. And no offense to people with light blue eyes. I've dated guys with light blue eyes and LOVED them. I know people that don't love them. I knew a guy who wouldn't date women with blue eyes. He would date blondes, just not with blue eyes, so he wasn't against Nords or anything lol. I always thought this was weird and I asked him why he hates blue eyes. He told me they just didn't look healthy. I never got that until I noticed grandmas eyes. They used to be a dark hazel and now they are a light green. I associate them with her aging. For almost everyone eyes lighten with age. Therefore, you can see why someone can see light eyes as "unhealthy". However, the majority of people consider blue eyes more attractive than brown because they are more exotic. However, brown eyes can be exotic too,it depends how they are matched. My cousins brown eyes are exotic. The blonde and blue gene often stick together during the cross over period, so having brown eyes and blonde hair is rare. Having blue eyes and blonde hair is common.
My eyes are hazel and they are light, but not as light as blue eyes. Blue eyes seem the lightest, with few exceptions where some people have really dark blue eyes. Like Heidi Montag for example. However, I actually prefer light blue eyes, even in girls. I don't care if they look hard, and really if they have a bit of green they look less hard. And really, it depends on the rest of someone's features. Blue eyes wont look hard simply because of the color, if the girl has soft features, blue eyes will look sof ttoo
05/19/2009 - 00:34
by Emily
This is often at the expense of whites, who most of the time will have much more beautiful children with another white person, not to mention that the gene pool will be corrupted and fewer truly white children will be born in the future if we increase the race mixing.
What is truly white? white white? If so, Europeans have never been known as the whitest people in the world.
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