Fashion models seem to be more about status than sexiness, regardless of the orientation. It may be that androgynous faces (I would describe the faces as androgynous rather than outright masculine) are deemed by the editors to convey a sense of high-status cool reserve that would be less readily presented on a more feminine face.
great body. AMAZING body. relatively cute face. nothing amazing. her cheekbones look more wide/defined vs. high. gisele has high cheekbones while halle berry has wide ones... IMHO. while unrelated, her hair is not good. thin, damasged, bad dye job.
Peter: Women from the northern parts of Europe tend to be overrepresented among high-end models and so it is here. There is nothing to be surprised about.
You may not like narrow faces, but this site is not about your preferences and it is not targeting you.
The reason why the less feminine but finer-featured woman in your example will be preferred by some men is because of the finer facial features, which should be obvious. Don’t waste my time by asking such questions.
I have never talked about pedomorphy as a beauty trait; it isn’t one.
I don’t think I am featuring women with “man faces” within the attractive women section of this site. Slight masculinization is more like it, and it doesn’t defeat the purpose of this site. Feminine beauty = beauty related to femininity + beauty not related to femininity. Both packages are not necessarily found in the same woman.
Your knee-jerk reaction bore no resemblance to what I wrote. Desist.
You think I am resorting to extremes? Sticking a penis – through an orifice meant for egesting feces – into someone’s fecal residue/mucus-coated rectum is not extreme? No foul debating here.
I did not compare sodomy to pedophilia. Just as pedophilia appears natural to a pedophile, sodomy appears natural to a sodomite. No foul debating here.
You must not educate “ignorant heterosexuals” about the “cleanliness” or merits of depraved, loathsome sex practices at this site. This is not the venue for it.
Paul: A preference for one’s own kind is not racist. It has been observed among many animal species: the majority of individuals in different geographic populations of the same species preferring their own kind. I don’t suppose you will call these non-human species racist.
You indicated no preference for your own kind as opposed to another kind. Some prefer another kind to their own kind. But the majority of people prefer their own kind. This is natural, and has nothing to do with superiority-inferiority.
You are willing to admit that differential representation of various ethnic groups in specific sporting activities is based on natural differences in athletic ability and thereby not racist. To some extent this is true, but a careful examination will reveal racism at play sometimes. In the United States, African-American and white men are well-matched for height, and there are a lot more white men. Height is not a factor behind the overrepresentation of African-Americans in American basketball. Removing the height factor, success in basketball depends on a number of abilities that are unlikely to overwhelmingly favor African-Americans. African-Americans may have an advantage in being able to jump higher. On the other hand, there are many examples of talented white basketball players that are set aside for less qualified African-American players, and you can find many examples documented at http://www.castefootball.us (see basketball section).
Unlike sports, you don’t consider skill as much of a factor in the fashion industry/modeling. The analog of skills/ability for modeling is looks or beauty. What if the differential representation of various ethnic groups among models is based on natural differences in beauty? In this case you would not invoke racism if the differential representation is consistent with ethnic differences in average beauty.
Whereas this site argues that it is not possible to objectively compare the attractiveness of different ethnic groups, the argument is technical and abstract. In practice, people generally regard Europeans or whiter-looking people among their own better looking. The three main reasons for this preference are that most people in most populations prefer lighter skins, people in all populations prefer more overall derived facial features, and secondary sexual characteristics in Europeans are more pronounced than in a large number of populations (e.g., Asiatic populations) and the majority of humans (partly because most humans are Asiatic).
The preferences for more overall derived facial features and somewhat exaggerated secondary sexual characteristics are intrinsic and have nothing to with racism. The skin color issue is a different matter. The bias toward lighter skins found among most people in most populations is some combination of intrinsic preferences and the global reach of Western media. This suggests that the overrepresentation of white models is possibly partly an issue of colorism but not racism because skin color is not a major correlate of ethnicity. And if indeed colorism is involved then, then regarding skin color, overrepresentation of white models is in large part to what, using the language of the academic left, can be termed as “internalized colorism.”
If you were to insist that colorism be labeled racism then only a small part of the overrepresentation of Europeans among models is potentially accounted for by racism, which will largely be of the internalized variety using the language of the left. If you consider that most people selecting these models are also of European ancestry and that Europeans generally show less of an interest in skin color than many non-European populations, then colorism or, if you insist, racism potentially accounts for very little of why Europeans are overrepresented among models.
Paul: They are a little upset at the claim that women with above average femininity are more attractive to heterosexual men, but the major issues involve the way the argument is made: using skeletons, nude figures, with no thought to what emotions women coming across this website may go through; and describing the looks of many models in terms that they are offended by.
Goya's La maja desnuda is hardly a pin up but it's said be the first painting to show pubic hair, that's what is likely to have caused the fuss. His portrait of Wellington is totally different to every other. Maybe he just liked being different. Maybe Rubens' women are overweight because they are supposed to be mothers of children seen in the picture. From what I have seen of the erotic art of olden days the women were portrayed as chubby, upper classes probably were overweight considering the way they are known to have ate at banquets.
I apologize then if Emily is not the kind of person I thought she was. I came off of replying to another girl on this site and must've grouped them together since Emily was being very specific in her answer that made her sound like of fan of the industry.
Nevertheless, preference of one's own race is racism Erik. We as humans are still far behind healthy mindsets when it comes to race. Why anyone would "prefer" their own race in anything is silly. They are good and bad things of any race and no race is superior to another race. I don't have any preference when it comes to race in any sense. Rare as it sounds, it's very true in my case.
The only times I can see when a disproportionate number of one race dominates a field and it not be racist is when it is based on some skill that seems to favor one race for whatever reason or for sociological reasons a race is attracted to that field. I am talking about sports. For example, basketball is dominated by black players and hockey white players. Now unless I am wrong, it seems to me most blacks are usually taller than whites which would come into benefit playing basketball. Also, basketball is a relatively cheap sport to partake in unlike hockey and since most blacks are lower to middle class it would be far easier for blacks to practice basketball than hockey. Therefore, to see more black players in basketball and more white players in hockey is not racist.
However, the fashion industry is based on little skill from its models and bases their picks of models according to the preference of the fashion designers. While I do not argue against the fact that the main target audience for fashion is white and I also do not argue that the industry is catering to their main target audience, what I am arguing is that the preference is a racist one.
Unless I am mistaking those two for other two, from what I have read the reason they are upset at you is because you are saying that many of the models used in fashion are unattractive to the eyes of heterosexual men. Which is true.
I have seen argument after argument from them to you about this. Even going as far as to bring into question classiness with the nude models you use versus the models of the fashion industry which has no bearing to the point you are making of femininity.
Erik,
I actually liked the tone of this message at the begining but then it went downhill from there!
1. "I don’t see why you bother trying to understand what I am saying."
Because i like you! :D
2. If you want i can illustrate with pictures what i am trying to say. Actually when i have time i will do this. In your attractive women category ... in the somewhat masculinized section. The women are predominantly Nordic/North European looking. Why is that not surprising?
Many of these women have narrow manly faces. I don't find narrow faces in women particularly attractive. You mentioned in your comparison between a North European and South European (i forget the names). That some straight white males will prefer the fine featured (yet masculine) girl to the more feminine South European. What is this?
That girl looks like a proper Nordic male! If she had a boy cut, there would be little difficulty in distinguishing.
You talked about Pedomorphy and if North European men like pedomorphic traits or something along those lines. Have you ever thought about adressing masculinization preferences in Nordic males?
I mean to say why would some heterosexual pick that Nordic masculine girl? just because she has finer features? Yes i know you will point to the correlation of fine features and femininity. But what about the overall picture? But do fine features "justify" a boy's physique? which that Nordic girl has.
The reason i previously asked about your sexuality is because of this issue. There are other women with man faces that you have posted here which you said you found attractive. Doesn't that defeat the purpose of this site?
You have also mentioned somewhere that you find some masculine models attractive due to their fine features and describe it as a "work of art".
This leads me to assume that as long as they have manly faces (but feminine bodies in some cases) and are Nordic they are fair game for you? same with Nordic males?
If you want i can use pictures...and as you might have noticed i am not the only one. Other people have noticed the "man faces" too.
3. "I don’t see where I have categorized men who have indulged in anal sex as “having had homosexual tendencies or having narrowly escaped homosexuality.” I don’t see why you bother trying to understand what I am saying."
That was my knee jerk reaction to what you said here. Off course i should have not have spoken in absolutes. You mentioned a "disproportionate" number.
"especially heterosexuals interested in the anal sex-related activities described, and whereas a disproportionate number of these self-identified heterosexuals would have experienced homosexual attraction or behavior at some point, most will be exclusively heterosexual."
4. "Yes, anal sex has been prevalent since the beginning. So have incest, bestiality, child molestation and rape, all deviant practices and all socially unacceptable."
Why do you always have to go to the extreme and bring irrelevant issues? Please don't compare anal sex to those other things. Why should you always justify something by bringing up something worse? (Foul debating techniques)* stick to what is being talked about!
5. "I am not surprised that you don’t find sodomy deviant. Neither does a pedophile find child molestation deviant. But most heterosexuals regard sodomy as filthy, deviate, abominable conduct."
Yes i take it up my ass! If you have a problem with it....well....bite me! lol
I can't believe you have to go so low and compare sodomy with pedophilia. What is this? (Foul debating techniques)*
I attempted to educate you before but i will do it again and to any "ignorant" heterosexual that think that doing someone in the back door means getting "messy"
Erik, look up douching.....men and women do it. I do it!
Its basic cleaning up...just like a shower before. There is no mess involved so enough of this it is "filthy" argument. Same thing to mention on that "filthy" site lol
Abominable conduct? You sure read your Bible.
Deviate? well too many of those activities these days! i better not get into details.
Sorry Erik but your "perfect" world that exists in your head won't be coming to life anytime soon.
There is such a duality with you. I would expect someone like you to be more open to anal sex since your all over the porn world ;)
I went to a few links to the wesites here (oh this must make you happy...although i didn't subscribe lol). The sights on these websites...oh my!
Sometimes you come across as a really narrow minded and narcisisstic individual. Pity that you do really have some good points. Please change!? I recommend you try anal sex....trust me you will never think the same again. Good luck!
and tell me all about it :P
* my reference to foul debating techniques is...a taste of your own medicine.
Peter: The attractive women section of this site isn’t a feminine women section. Putting a few slightly masculinized women there who look attractive should not be an issue, and they have not been put there because of their specific European ethnicity. The ethnic background of the women chosen happens to be the same as that of the prime target audience of this site.
My reply to Ivan mentioned some people trying out some of the sexual practices they are hearing about. It does not follow that this is a reference to any people trying out any specific sexual practice they have been told about. So your references to bestiality, feces and homosexual behaviors are irrelevant. People will not voluntarily act inconsistently with their orientation/inclination.
Yes, anal sex has been prevalent since the beginning. So have incest, bestiality, child molestation and rape, all deviant practices and all socially unacceptable. I am not surprised that you don’t find sodomy deviant. Neither does a pedophile find child molestation deviant. But most heterosexuals regard sodomy as filthy, deviate, abominable conduct.
I don’t see where I have categorized men who have indulged in anal sex as “having had homosexual tendencies or having narrowly escaped homosexuality.” I don’t see why you bother trying to understand what I am saying.
Godis: Keeley’s breasts look natural. Her backside is not correspondingly prominent and she does have broad shoulders. In a number of her pictures, her shoulders are drawn back to make her shoulders look less broad, i.e., the effect is achieved by posing, not airbrushing.
If you are around age 20 and have been abstaining from sex because of religious beliefs and other reasons, then it will only be natural that your mind is occupied by sexual desire on more occasions than it would be if you were having sex. If you had high sex drive then chances are you would have had found a way to reconcile premarital sex with religious beliefs or indulged in sex and asked for the Lord’s forgiveness, and the high libido would have made you lean more toward disregarding fear of pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections.
Even if we assume that you have high sex drive, testosterone or other hormone levels are not the only factors affecting sex drive. There are many other factors. The relationship I described is of a statistical nature. We find that Germans are lighter than Nigerians but we also find a few albino Nigerians who are lighter than most Germans. We find that Koreans are shorter, on average, compared to Swedes, but some Koreans are taller than most Swedes or some Swedes shorter than most Koreans. If libido increases with higher levels of testosterone, factor 1, factor 2, …, factor n, then you can have high libido with low testosterone levels if other factors are present at high levels.
Alex: The author of “girl with a one track mind” is clearly a masculinized woman. The relationship between testosterone and libido/promiscuity is of a statistical nature, as explained above. It is possible that the woman’s libido/promiscuity is not related to the increased masculinization but some other factor because libido is affected by many factors. In the case of an individual only careful examination will tell, but if we separate random women into more masculine and more feminine groups, then we could say with confidence that the greater promiscuity of the more masculine group is related to the greater masculinization.
Among promiscuous women, some feel guilty and used after sex, others don’t and some others feel like they are the ones who used men. In the case of this woman, I don’t know which of these applies.
Paul: Emily is apparently not a big fan of the fashion industry and does not agree with the very thin standard they use.
Your reply to her does not take into consideration the market. High-fashion merchandize disproportionately caters to people of European ancestry. If you look at companies selling ready-to-wear clothes meant for mass consumption, they use models of all ethnic backgrounds, and in sufficient numbers.
Also, even if the same clothes/styles go with people of any ethnic background, people will often prefer to see someone of their ethnic background model the clothes.
You cannot describe preference as racism. Most prefer their own kind. Does this make most racist? If I hired based on looks when looks don’t matter then this is discrimination, which, depending on other circumstances, may be a form of racism. But when looks matter, as in modeling, and the people doing the selection are basing it on their aesthetic preferences, you cannot describe this as racism.
I totally forgot about this post and haven't really been visiting this site too much since updates have been few and far between.
Nevertheless, I am here and I hope that my reply to you Emily reaches you because I believe you are off the track on this issue. And this seems to be because you are very much a big fan of the fashion industry and I am guessing you find many of their ideals, particularly the kind of models they use, as very agreeable. Me, as a totally heterosexual male can tell you that I don't in any way shape or form.
That said... Yes, it is racism. I don't know who the "you people" you are referring to are but in this case, it is not misused one bit. Your argument is not strong enough to really hold water against it.
Your argument about you wanting to see women that are of the same race as you modeling clothes you would be interested in buying is based on hyperbole. While I imagine there are maybe, perhaps some color combination in clothing that look better on certain skin tones (very rare I imagine and are probably very extreme designs), for the grand majority of clothing race does not clash with it nowhere near as much as you suggest. Consider that men and women of all races and colors will wear a black tuxedo and a white gown on for their wedding respectively.
Anything beyond this is based completely on opinion which if taken further would be a racial preference. Which is a nice way of writing "racism".
Even taking your argument into consideration, you wanting a model of the same race as you in order to get an idea of how you would appear in such a dress should not be a preference that impairs other women who are interested in similar clothing to see it on a model of their own race. This creates a very sound reason to use a black model to showcase the clothing for black interest following your own logic.
For your argument to prove that using black models would lower sales to the point of collapsing a magazine entirely would not be the result of any sort of racism would mean that in the current world that all black models' clothing is very specific to them and in no way shape or form are similar to what their white counterparts wear. From quick glimpses into the many pictures of the runway culture, I can say that is not the case most of the time.
The situation with a low amount of black models being used is based on racism within the majority of the fashion designs. Or, "race preference" if we need lack the balls to just plain say what it is.
But I think this is a good thing in the bigger picture. Because if more black models were used than that would mean the fashion industry would be turning their twisted eyes towards a new market. That would eventually lead to a corruption of a whole new audience to their sickness resulting in the media representation of black women to look more masculine like whites are dealing with right now. So in a way, the racism in this case is a good thing.
Finally, "latin" is not a race. Even though the term is so misused and misunderstood by the mainstream, its true definition simply refers to people or things from the region of Latin America. Contrary to what you think, there are many Latin girls that fit your physical description.
I always find it hilarious when women who are obsessed with the fashion industry and are big followers of it, comment on a more feminine women and criticize them for features that are clearly more attractive to any heterosexual man than the disgusting gallery of models that populate the fashion industry.
You finding Vanessa Hudgen's hips "too big" is like a KKK member finding a black man's skin too "black".
In my opinion, she is as best "cute" but not really high on the scale. However, she is far more feminine and more preferable to a true heterosexual male than any of those woMEN that are on the runway.
Reading post after post that you have made on this site makes it obvious you are clearly a fan of the fashion industry and the sickness it promotes. You have no clue in true femininity since you believe the majority of those models are somehow of the highest form of female beauty. A joke if there ever was one...
I have no idea why you and Danielle keep posting comments on this site since you don't like anything that is ever being said in it. Only thing that I can think of is that you cannot stand someone out there in the world not buying into to crap that this industry is trying to force feed the world and therefore feel the need to defend it.
Erik,
"exposing more people to deviant sexual practices may prompt some people to try out some of the sexual practices that they are hearing about."
You must have a really boring sex life with predetermined rules! :D
Ok sorry that was a bad joke...
There is more porn available on "deviant" sexual behaviours these days such as bestiality, scat etc. I don't think "normal" people would ever think of indulging in those. For example i have been exposed to all forms of "deviant"/"disgusting" porn such as mentioned above and more but NEVER once have i even thought of indulging in them. Besides I don't think anal sex should be included in this category.
Anal sex has been prevalent since the "begining". Men have had to resort to anal sex because their wives were pregnant or having periods etc. In many cultures girls practise anal sex in order to preserve their virginity before marriage.
While we are on the topic of anal sex....Why is it that some men are "interested" in women's asses? A women's ass can be of more interest to some men than breasts or vagina! I don't know but whenever i encounter "straight" men who are into ass, it makes me wonder...
Man isn't it easy to categorize men who have indulged in anal sex as having had homosexual tendencies or having narrowly escaped homosexuality?
How convenient.
There is more gay and bi porn out there now. Will this in any way influence straight men to try out the "other side"?
Godis: Whereas you are correct that the paintings from Medieval Europe/the Renaissance paintings do not support my argument about femininity being a strong correlate of attractiveness in women, they don’t refute it either.
Consider the context. Depicting the nude form was hardly possible when the Church was powerful, and the Church limited the art to Biblical themes. Post Renaissance, the Church became less powerful, but it was still powerful enough such that if the artists depicted their nude female form as feminine, then the feminine female nude form being strongly sexually arousing to men, these paintings would be labeled as catering to prurient interests and the artists would face prosecution.
You surely wouldn’t expect Medieval artists to depict nude forms of physiques as in these paintings by Alberto Vargas. Note also the cited example of the nude maja by Francisco de Goya, which was painted around 1800. De Goya got in trouble with religious authorities for depicting obscenity.
There are two additional issues. The women painted by Michelangelo di Lodovico Buonarroti Simoni are very muscular, and their breasts look like bad breast implants. Michelangelo was a homosexual and presumably using male figure models to draw female nudes. Some artists may also have used female prostitutes as nude figure models, and female prostitutes tend to be disproportionately physically masculinized.
Now, the other issues. I have not claimed that as one’s body fat increases in women, so does masculinization. Decreasing body fat levels below a range and increasing it above this range will tend to be correlated with increased masculinization in women.
Regarding beauty being in the eye of the beholder, this is true but with respect to beauty, most people see through the same eyes.
Ivan: People who watch hardcore pornography on a regular basis are not typical of the general population, especially heterosexuals interested in the anal sex-related activities described, and whereas a disproportionate number of these self-identified heterosexuals would have experienced homosexual attraction or behavior at some point, most will be exclusively heterosexual.
The anal sex statistics you have presented are incomplete. A closer examination will reveal that among heterosexuals who have indulged in anal sex, many have done it only once or twice, some indulge in it on an irregular basis and only a small proportion regularly indulges in it.
I agree that the more attractive women do not go into porn. However, the fact that much of the sex in Private's videos is "consumption of semen that may be mixed with fecal mucus, oral-anal sex, and performing fellatio on a penis that has emerged from the anorectal region" is not particular to that company, it is par for the course in porn today, presumably because there is a demand for it among men who buy porn. It seems a majority of porn consumers are less than fully heterosexual in your eyes.
For whatever reason anal sex is not as rare as it was even a decade ago among heterosexuals.
For males, the proportion who have had anal sex with a female increases from 4.6 percent at age 15 to 34 percent at ages 22–24; for females, the proportion who have had anal sex with a male increases from 2.4 percent at age 15 to 32 percent at age 22–24." One in three women admits to having had anal sex by age 24. By ages 25 to 44, the percentages rise to 40 for men and 35 for women. And that's not counting the 3.7 percent of men aged 15 to 44 who've had anal sex with other men.
The last time major national surveys asked about this practice, in the early 1990s, only 20 percent of men aged 20 to 39 said they'd had anal sex with a woman in the preceding 10 years. Only 26 percent of men aged 18 to 59 said they'd ever done so. In the first survey, the 10-year limit excluded half the sexual career of half the sample, but that isn't enough to explain a doubling in the percentage saying yes. In the second survey, according to the current report, the inclusion of men aged 46 to 59 might have diluted the sample with "cohorts that were less likely to have had anal sex." But that's the point: Newer cohorts are more likely to have tried it."
I have been descriminated against because I am not pretty. who wants tall big b oobed women anyway. I have been told I am ugly. I act like i am smart and pretend i am a creative person because it makes me feel better. even when i let men control me i cant keep a boyfriend cause they embarrassed of me and dont want me to meet his mom. http://www.bondage.com/u/mytabu/user.html laura balladur
Fashion models seem to be more about status than sexiness, regardless of the orientation. It may be that androgynous faces (I would describe the faces as androgynous rather than outright masculine) are deemed by the editors to convey a sense of high-status cool reserve that would be less readily presented on a more feminine face.
Don't be so harsh. I'm as hot as hell.
great body. AMAZING body. relatively cute face. nothing amazing. her cheekbones look more wide/defined vs. high. gisele has high cheekbones while halle berry has wide ones... IMHO. while unrelated, her hair is not good. thin, damasged, bad dye job.
Peter: Women from the northern parts of Europe tend to be overrepresented among high-end models and so it is here. There is nothing to be surprised about.
You may not like narrow faces, but this site is not about your preferences and it is not targeting you.
The reason why the less feminine but finer-featured woman in your example will be preferred by some men is because of the finer facial features, which should be obvious. Don’t waste my time by asking such questions.
I have never talked about pedomorphy as a beauty trait; it isn’t one.
I don’t think I am featuring women with “man faces” within the attractive women section of this site. Slight masculinization is more like it, and it doesn’t defeat the purpose of this site. Feminine beauty = beauty related to femininity + beauty not related to femininity. Both packages are not necessarily found in the same woman.
Your knee-jerk reaction bore no resemblance to what I wrote. Desist.
You think I am resorting to extremes? Sticking a penis – through an orifice meant for egesting feces – into someone’s fecal residue/mucus-coated rectum is not extreme? No foul debating here.
I did not compare sodomy to pedophilia. Just as pedophilia appears natural to a pedophile, sodomy appears natural to a sodomite. No foul debating here.
You must not educate “ignorant heterosexuals” about the “cleanliness” or merits of depraved, loathsome sex practices at this site. This is not the venue for it.
Paul: A preference for one’s own kind is not racist. It has been observed among many animal species: the majority of individuals in different geographic populations of the same species preferring their own kind. I don’t suppose you will call these non-human species racist.
You indicated no preference for your own kind as opposed to another kind. Some prefer another kind to their own kind. But the majority of people prefer their own kind. This is natural, and has nothing to do with superiority-inferiority.
You are willing to admit that differential representation of various ethnic groups in specific sporting activities is based on natural differences in athletic ability and thereby not racist. To some extent this is true, but a careful examination will reveal racism at play sometimes. In the United States, African-American and white men are well-matched for height, and there are a lot more white men. Height is not a factor behind the overrepresentation of African-Americans in American basketball. Removing the height factor, success in basketball depends on a number of abilities that are unlikely to overwhelmingly favor African-Americans. African-Americans may have an advantage in being able to jump higher. On the other hand, there are many examples of talented white basketball players that are set aside for less qualified African-American players, and you can find many examples documented at http://www.castefootball.us (see basketball section).
Unlike sports, you don’t consider skill as much of a factor in the fashion industry/modeling. The analog of skills/ability for modeling is looks or beauty. What if the differential representation of various ethnic groups among models is based on natural differences in beauty? In this case you would not invoke racism if the differential representation is consistent with ethnic differences in average beauty.
Whereas this site argues that it is not possible to objectively compare the attractiveness of different ethnic groups, the argument is technical and abstract. In practice, people generally regard Europeans or whiter-looking people among their own better looking. The three main reasons for this preference are that most people in most populations prefer lighter skins, people in all populations prefer more overall derived facial features, and secondary sexual characteristics in Europeans are more pronounced than in a large number of populations (e.g., Asiatic populations) and the majority of humans (partly because most humans are Asiatic).
The preferences for more overall derived facial features and somewhat exaggerated secondary sexual characteristics are intrinsic and have nothing to with racism. The skin color issue is a different matter. The bias toward lighter skins found among most people in most populations is some combination of intrinsic preferences and the global reach of Western media. This suggests that the overrepresentation of white models is possibly partly an issue of colorism but not racism because skin color is not a major correlate of ethnicity. And if indeed colorism is involved then, then regarding skin color, overrepresentation of white models is in large part to what, using the language of the academic left, can be termed as “internalized colorism.”
If you were to insist that colorism be labeled racism then only a small part of the overrepresentation of Europeans among models is potentially accounted for by racism, which will largely be of the internalized variety using the language of the left. If you consider that most people selecting these models are also of European ancestry and that Europeans generally show less of an interest in skin color than many non-European populations, then colorism or, if you insist, racism potentially accounts for very little of why Europeans are overrepresented among models.
Paul: They are a little upset at the claim that women with above average femininity are more attractive to heterosexual men, but the major issues involve the way the argument is made: using skeletons, nude figures, with no thought to what emotions women coming across this website may go through; and describing the looks of many models in terms that they are offended by.
Goya's La maja desnuda is hardly a pin up but it's said be the first painting to show pubic hair, that's what is likely to have caused the fuss. His portrait of Wellington is totally different to every other. Maybe he just liked being different. Maybe Rubens' women are overweight because they are supposed to be mothers of children seen in the picture. From what I have seen of the erotic art of olden days the women were portrayed as chubby, upper classes probably were overweight considering the way they are known to have ate at banquets.
I apologize then if Emily is not the kind of person I thought she was. I came off of replying to another girl on this site and must've grouped them together since Emily was being very specific in her answer that made her sound like of fan of the industry.
Nevertheless, preference of one's own race is racism Erik. We as humans are still far behind healthy mindsets when it comes to race. Why anyone would "prefer" their own race in anything is silly. They are good and bad things of any race and no race is superior to another race. I don't have any preference when it comes to race in any sense. Rare as it sounds, it's very true in my case.
The only times I can see when a disproportionate number of one race dominates a field and it not be racist is when it is based on some skill that seems to favor one race for whatever reason or for sociological reasons a race is attracted to that field. I am talking about sports. For example, basketball is dominated by black players and hockey white players. Now unless I am wrong, it seems to me most blacks are usually taller than whites which would come into benefit playing basketball. Also, basketball is a relatively cheap sport to partake in unlike hockey and since most blacks are lower to middle class it would be far easier for blacks to practice basketball than hockey. Therefore, to see more black players in basketball and more white players in hockey is not racist.
However, the fashion industry is based on little skill from its models and bases their picks of models according to the preference of the fashion designers. While I do not argue against the fact that the main target audience for fashion is white and I also do not argue that the industry is catering to their main target audience, what I am arguing is that the preference is a racist one.
Unless I am mistaking those two for other two, from what I have read the reason they are upset at you is because you are saying that many of the models used in fashion are unattractive to the eyes of heterosexual men. Which is true.
I have seen argument after argument from them to you about this. Even going as far as to bring into question classiness with the nude models you use versus the models of the fashion industry which has no bearing to the point you are making of femininity.
Erik,
I actually liked the tone of this message at the begining but then it went downhill from there!
1. "I don’t see why you bother trying to understand what I am saying."
Because i like you! :D
2. If you want i can illustrate with pictures what i am trying to say. Actually when i have time i will do this. In your attractive women category ... in the somewhat masculinized section. The women are predominantly Nordic/North European looking. Why is that not surprising?
Many of these women have narrow manly faces. I don't find narrow faces in women particularly attractive. You mentioned in your comparison between a North European and South European (i forget the names). That some straight white males will prefer the fine featured (yet masculine) girl to the more feminine South European. What is this?
That girl looks like a proper Nordic male! If she had a boy cut, there would be little difficulty in distinguishing.
You talked about Pedomorphy and if North European men like pedomorphic traits or something along those lines. Have you ever thought about adressing masculinization preferences in Nordic males?
I mean to say why would some heterosexual pick that Nordic masculine girl? just because she has finer features? Yes i know you will point to the correlation of fine features and femininity. But what about the overall picture? But do fine features "justify" a boy's physique? which that Nordic girl has.
The reason i previously asked about your sexuality is because of this issue. There are other women with man faces that you have posted here which you said you found attractive. Doesn't that defeat the purpose of this site?
You have also mentioned somewhere that you find some masculine models attractive due to their fine features and describe it as a "work of art".
This leads me to assume that as long as they have manly faces (but feminine bodies in some cases) and are Nordic they are fair game for you? same with Nordic males?
If you want i can use pictures...and as you might have noticed i am not the only one. Other people have noticed the "man faces" too.
3. "I don’t see where I have categorized men who have indulged in anal sex as “having had homosexual tendencies or having narrowly escaped homosexuality.” I don’t see why you bother trying to understand what I am saying."
That was my knee jerk reaction to what you said here. Off course i should have not have spoken in absolutes. You mentioned a "disproportionate" number.
"especially heterosexuals interested in the anal sex-related activities described, and whereas a disproportionate number of these self-identified heterosexuals would have experienced homosexual attraction or behavior at some point, most will be exclusively heterosexual."
4. "Yes, anal sex has been prevalent since the beginning. So have incest, bestiality, child molestation and rape, all deviant practices and all socially unacceptable."
Why do you always have to go to the extreme and bring irrelevant issues? Please don't compare anal sex to those other things. Why should you always justify something by bringing up something worse? (Foul debating techniques)* stick to what is being talked about!
5. "I am not surprised that you don’t find sodomy deviant. Neither does a pedophile find child molestation deviant. But most heterosexuals regard sodomy as filthy, deviate, abominable conduct."
Yes i take it up my ass! If you have a problem with it....well....bite me! lol
I can't believe you have to go so low and compare sodomy with pedophilia. What is this? (Foul debating techniques)*
I attempted to educate you before but i will do it again and to any "ignorant" heterosexual that think that doing someone in the back door means getting "messy"
Erik, look up douching.....men and women do it. I do it!
Its basic cleaning up...just like a shower before. There is no mess involved so enough of this it is "filthy" argument. Same thing to mention on that "filthy" site lol
Abominable conduct? You sure read your Bible.
Deviate? well too many of those activities these days! i better not get into details.
Sorry Erik but your "perfect" world that exists in your head won't be coming to life anytime soon.
There is such a duality with you. I would expect someone like you to be more open to anal sex since your all over the porn world ;)
I went to a few links to the wesites here (oh this must make you happy...although i didn't subscribe lol). The sights on these websites...oh my!
Sometimes you come across as a really narrow minded and narcisisstic individual. Pity that you do really have some good points. Please change!? I recommend you try anal sex....trust me you will never think the same again. Good luck!
and tell me all about it :P
* my reference to foul debating techniques is...a taste of your own medicine.
Peter: The attractive women section of this site isn’t a feminine women section. Putting a few slightly masculinized women there who look attractive should not be an issue, and they have not been put there because of their specific European ethnicity. The ethnic background of the women chosen happens to be the same as that of the prime target audience of this site.
My reply to Ivan mentioned some people trying out some of the sexual practices they are hearing about. It does not follow that this is a reference to any people trying out any specific sexual practice they have been told about. So your references to bestiality, feces and homosexual behaviors are irrelevant. People will not voluntarily act inconsistently with their orientation/inclination.
Yes, anal sex has been prevalent since the beginning. So have incest, bestiality, child molestation and rape, all deviant practices and all socially unacceptable. I am not surprised that you don’t find sodomy deviant. Neither does a pedophile find child molestation deviant. But most heterosexuals regard sodomy as filthy, deviate, abominable conduct.
I don’t see where I have categorized men who have indulged in anal sex as “having had homosexual tendencies or having narrowly escaped homosexuality.” I don’t see why you bother trying to understand what I am saying.
Godis: Keeley’s breasts look natural. Her backside is not correspondingly prominent and she does have broad shoulders. In a number of her pictures, her shoulders are drawn back to make her shoulders look less broad, i.e., the effect is achieved by posing, not airbrushing.
Women don’t like masculinization in women’s looks; they prefer above average femininity in women’s looks, just like men. http://www.femininebeauty.info/aesthetics/gender
If you are around age 20 and have been abstaining from sex because of religious beliefs and other reasons, then it will only be natural that your mind is occupied by sexual desire on more occasions than it would be if you were having sex. If you had high sex drive then chances are you would have had found a way to reconcile premarital sex with religious beliefs or indulged in sex and asked for the Lord’s forgiveness, and the high libido would have made you lean more toward disregarding fear of pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections.
Even if we assume that you have high sex drive, testosterone or other hormone levels are not the only factors affecting sex drive. There are many other factors. The relationship I described is of a statistical nature. We find that Germans are lighter than Nigerians but we also find a few albino Nigerians who are lighter than most Germans. We find that Koreans are shorter, on average, compared to Swedes, but some Koreans are taller than most Swedes or some Swedes shorter than most Koreans. If libido increases with higher levels of testosterone, factor 1, factor 2, …, factor n, then you can have high libido with low testosterone levels if other factors are present at high levels.
Alex: The author of “girl with a one track mind” is clearly a masculinized woman. The relationship between testosterone and libido/promiscuity is of a statistical nature, as explained above. It is possible that the woman’s libido/promiscuity is not related to the increased masculinization but some other factor because libido is affected by many factors. In the case of an individual only careful examination will tell, but if we separate random women into more masculine and more feminine groups, then we could say with confidence that the greater promiscuity of the more masculine group is related to the greater masculinization.
Among promiscuous women, some feel guilty and used after sex, others don’t and some others feel like they are the ones who used men. In the case of this woman, I don’t know which of these applies.
Paul: Emily is apparently not a big fan of the fashion industry and does not agree with the very thin standard they use.
Your reply to her does not take into consideration the market. High-fashion merchandize disproportionately caters to people of European ancestry. If you look at companies selling ready-to-wear clothes meant for mass consumption, they use models of all ethnic backgrounds, and in sufficient numbers.
Also, even if the same clothes/styles go with people of any ethnic background, people will often prefer to see someone of their ethnic background model the clothes.
You cannot describe preference as racism. Most prefer their own kind. Does this make most racist? If I hired based on looks when looks don’t matter then this is discrimination, which, depending on other circumstances, may be a form of racism. But when looks matter, as in modeling, and the people doing the selection are basing it on their aesthetic preferences, you cannot describe this as racism.
Paul: Your criticism of Sarah and Danielle is misplaced. They are upset at me, not defending the “sickness” the fashion industry is promoting.
I totally forgot about this post and haven't really been visiting this site too much since updates have been few and far between.
Nevertheless, I am here and I hope that my reply to you Emily reaches you because I believe you are off the track on this issue. And this seems to be because you are very much a big fan of the fashion industry and I am guessing you find many of their ideals, particularly the kind of models they use, as very agreeable. Me, as a totally heterosexual male can tell you that I don't in any way shape or form.
That said... Yes, it is racism. I don't know who the "you people" you are referring to are but in this case, it is not misused one bit. Your argument is not strong enough to really hold water against it.
Your argument about you wanting to see women that are of the same race as you modeling clothes you would be interested in buying is based on hyperbole. While I imagine there are maybe, perhaps some color combination in clothing that look better on certain skin tones (very rare I imagine and are probably very extreme designs), for the grand majority of clothing race does not clash with it nowhere near as much as you suggest. Consider that men and women of all races and colors will wear a black tuxedo and a white gown on for their wedding respectively.
Anything beyond this is based completely on opinion which if taken further would be a racial preference. Which is a nice way of writing "racism".
Even taking your argument into consideration, you wanting a model of the same race as you in order to get an idea of how you would appear in such a dress should not be a preference that impairs other women who are interested in similar clothing to see it on a model of their own race. This creates a very sound reason to use a black model to showcase the clothing for black interest following your own logic.
For your argument to prove that using black models would lower sales to the point of collapsing a magazine entirely would not be the result of any sort of racism would mean that in the current world that all black models' clothing is very specific to them and in no way shape or form are similar to what their white counterparts wear. From quick glimpses into the many pictures of the runway culture, I can say that is not the case most of the time.
The situation with a low amount of black models being used is based on racism within the majority of the fashion designs. Or, "race preference" if we need lack the balls to just plain say what it is.
But I think this is a good thing in the bigger picture. Because if more black models were used than that would mean the fashion industry would be turning their twisted eyes towards a new market. That would eventually lead to a corruption of a whole new audience to their sickness resulting in the media representation of black women to look more masculine like whites are dealing with right now. So in a way, the racism in this case is a good thing.
Finally, "latin" is not a race. Even though the term is so misused and misunderstood by the mainstream, its true definition simply refers to people or things from the region of Latin America. Contrary to what you think, there are many Latin girls that fit your physical description.
I always find it hilarious when women who are obsessed with the fashion industry and are big followers of it, comment on a more feminine women and criticize them for features that are clearly more attractive to any heterosexual man than the disgusting gallery of models that populate the fashion industry.
You finding Vanessa Hudgen's hips "too big" is like a KKK member finding a black man's skin too "black".
In my opinion, she is as best "cute" but not really high on the scale. However, she is far more feminine and more preferable to a true heterosexual male than any of those woMEN that are on the runway.
Reading post after post that you have made on this site makes it obvious you are clearly a fan of the fashion industry and the sickness it promotes. You have no clue in true femininity since you believe the majority of those models are somehow of the highest form of female beauty. A joke if there ever was one...
I have no idea why you and Danielle keep posting comments on this site since you don't like anything that is ever being said in it. Only thing that I can think of is that you cannot stand someone out there in the world not buying into to crap that this industry is trying to force feed the world and therefore feel the need to defend it.
Erik you havnt answered my question, please can you get back to me on it. Thank you.
Erik,
"exposing more people to deviant sexual practices may prompt some people to try out some of the sexual practices that they are hearing about."
You must have a really boring sex life with predetermined rules! :D
Ok sorry that was a bad joke...
There is more porn available on "deviant" sexual behaviours these days such as bestiality, scat etc. I don't think "normal" people would ever think of indulging in those. For example i have been exposed to all forms of "deviant"/"disgusting" porn such as mentioned above and more but NEVER once have i even thought of indulging in them. Besides I don't think anal sex should be included in this category.
Anal sex has been prevalent since the "begining". Men have had to resort to anal sex because their wives were pregnant or having periods etc. In many cultures girls practise anal sex in order to preserve their virginity before marriage.
While we are on the topic of anal sex....Why is it that some men are "interested" in women's asses? A women's ass can be of more interest to some men than breasts or vagina! I don't know but whenever i encounter "straight" men who are into ass, it makes me wonder...
Man isn't it easy to categorize men who have indulged in anal sex as having had homosexual tendencies or having narrowly escaped homosexuality?
How convenient.
There is more gay and bi porn out there now. Will this in any way influence straight men to try out the "other side"?
Godis: Whereas you are correct that the paintings from Medieval Europe/the Renaissance paintings do not support my argument about femininity being a strong correlate of attractiveness in women, they don’t refute it either.
Consider the context. Depicting the nude form was hardly possible when the Church was powerful, and the Church limited the art to Biblical themes. Post Renaissance, the Church became less powerful, but it was still powerful enough such that if the artists depicted their nude female form as feminine, then the feminine female nude form being strongly sexually arousing to men, these paintings would be labeled as catering to prurient interests and the artists would face prosecution.
You surely wouldn’t expect Medieval artists to depict nude forms of physiques as in these paintings by Alberto Vargas. Note also the cited example of the nude maja by Francisco de Goya, which was painted around 1800. De Goya got in trouble with religious authorities for depicting obscenity.
There are two additional issues. The women painted by Michelangelo di Lodovico Buonarroti Simoni are very muscular, and their breasts look like bad breast implants. Michelangelo was a homosexual and presumably using male figure models to draw female nudes. Some artists may also have used female prostitutes as nude figure models, and female prostitutes tend to be disproportionately physically masculinized.
Now, the other issues. I have not claimed that as one’s body fat increases in women, so does masculinization. Decreasing body fat levels below a range and increasing it above this range will tend to be correlated with increased masculinization in women.
Regarding beauty being in the eye of the beholder, this is true but with respect to beauty, most people see through the same eyes.
Ivan: People who watch hardcore pornography on a regular basis are not typical of the general population, especially heterosexuals interested in the anal sex-related activities described, and whereas a disproportionate number of these self-identified heterosexuals would have experienced homosexual attraction or behavior at some point, most will be exclusively heterosexual.
The anal sex statistics you have presented are incomplete. A closer examination will reveal that among heterosexuals who have indulged in anal sex, many have done it only once or twice, some indulge in it on an irregular basis and only a small proportion regularly indulges in it.
As to the increase from the early 1990s to the 2000s, the increase is likely related to increased normalization of deviant sexual practices by the medical establishment, the media and schools. As in many examples of drug abuse prevention education schemes, imparting knowledge of illegal drugs may enhance drug use (see the citations on this page), exposing more people to deviant sexual practices may prompt some people to try out some of the sexual practices that they are hearing about.
any know what documentary "zonneschijn" is talking about?
I agree that the more attractive women do not go into porn. However, the fact that much of the sex in Private's videos is "consumption of semen that may be mixed with fecal mucus, oral-anal sex, and performing fellatio on a penis that has emerged from the anorectal region" is not particular to that company, it is par for the course in porn today, presumably because there is a demand for it among men who buy porn. It seems a majority of porn consumers are less than fully heterosexual in your eyes.
For whatever reason anal sex is not as rare as it was even a decade ago among heterosexuals.
Most refreshing site I've ever seen! Never have I felt more vindicated in regards to my own personal beliefs. Thank you!
I have been descriminated against because I am not pretty. who wants tall big b oobed women anyway. I have been told I am ugly. I act like i am smart and pretend i am a creative person because it makes me feel better. even when i let men control me i cant keep a boyfriend cause they embarrassed of me and dont want me to meet his mom. http://www.bondage.com/u/mytabu/user.html laura balladur
"Henrik Bjornsen"
Not a Swedish name.
As for Franklin, it's perhaps likely most of the "Scandinavians" he was exposed to were Finns.
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