Erik, I don't have a poor understanding of any of the "basics" of feminism. Unlike you I understand that many people who identify themselves as feminists have widely different opinions on what constitutes as oppression and they have different opinions on sex, pornography, science, politics and everything under the sun. You have a poor grasp of everything Erik so please don't try to insult anyone on that basis.
Women can indulge in negative behaviors because of the desire to be "feminine". They may not be able to achieve your ideal without major surgery but they will still feel bad about not looking like your nude skanks. Most women do not diet in order to look like high fashion models anyways.
You are completely delusional if you believe that an "alternative" fashion industry will arise based on model selection. Models are not that important Erik. If the designer’s clientele respond more favorably to having skanks on the runway then the designers will put skanks on their runways. You don't seem to understand that these designers are running a business. They are running businesses focused on providing luxury goods not on jack off material for losers and self esteem bolstering for the average woman.
If these young girls who are at risk for anorexia are being inspired by any public figures its not the high fashion models but the ultra thin celebrities. You have no proof that the thinness of these celebrities is directly or even indirectly influenced by high fashion models. You have formed hypotheses that sound good in your head and attempted to present them as fact. The fashion designers do not own the models who walk in their shows or star in their campaigns. They have no responsibility towards the health of these models.
Heidi was an adult when she started so she could not be forced to do anything. She made a decision based on her perceived options. She was not forced to pursue a high fashion career she WANTED to pursue a career in modeling.
I know that you posted that video as a lame attempt at mocking the fashion industry but you failed. That Stefane Monzon presentation was not a fashion show. You said it yourself it’s a pubic hair show.
You characterize high fashion designers as mentally ill, sadomasochistic pederasts but you claim that you are not demonizing them? Oh please!!! Anyone with a brain can tell that you are a homophobic white supremacist nut job so cut the crap Erica.
Get a grip. In my saying her wastes changes from picture to picture I'm talking about in the photos, not in real life. Did you miss the part where I said they were from the same photoshoot as well? Obviously not. Read something thoroughly before deciding to comment on it, okay sweetie?
"You sound like a bleach brunette"
That doesn't even make sense.
Erik, I never claimed Heidi doesn't look skanky; she does. I was merely commenting on her waist-to-hip proportions. I don't think she is attractive, either.
How is Audrina not sexy? And you're saying her body is skanky? What? Maybe your idea of what is "skanky" differentiates from mine - in my opinion, skanky = whorish looking, and most whores have big boobs and curvy, wide hips, the look you prefer.
I would rather have her body than any other "model" in your attractive women's section.
In my opinion, one could look sexy without having to look skanky. Sexy means sexually appealing in a classy way, and skanky means sexually appealing in a dirty way.
Cute/Pretty = Kristin Kreuk
Sexy = Audrina Patridge
Skanky = The majority of the women that you have in this site's "attractive women."
I think also that the fasion industry is constantly evolving and females with more masculine features, while they may not be what you define as "pretty" or "sexy" they represent what is different. To see masculine type features on women is just another way that the world evolves. The feminine features one can always find on porn sites but the fashion industry is not defined by female or male. They like to mix things up and have interesting and contrasting body shapes, that are not so easily defined as female or male. I think you are thinking that fashion models need to be attractive but that is not the case fashion models provoke thought and change our perceptions on what we are naturally inclined to conclude in regards to the human body.
So basically to be hyper feminine and have a typical hoslistic female shape - hour glass, small jaw, small rib cage, narrow shoulders... you need to have like 95 percent of estrogen cursuing through your veins. So maybe they should start injecting girls with estrogen at a young age to give the men the perfect girlfriend for them. But what about mind, perhaps these hyper feminine females are a little on the stupid side and maybe a little on the dull side, perhaps that is a side effect of too much estrogen. I mean you see a lot of this type of shape and look in porn stars and I'm sure a lot of intelligent women enter that business. Personally I think that a super small rib cage and a long torso leading to a really wide pelvis looks kind of alien like.
whoever owns this site deserves an award for the most
awesome REAL beauty site on the internet!!!
If you read this, TONS of KUDOS!!
you make a difference to every beauty!
God Bless
Kassi: I didn’t post the ad titled, “don’t click here unless you are 18.” The ads that you see are computer generated, and whereas I could block specific ads, I don’t select the ads that are displayed.
Danielle: Don’t accuse me of presenting my opinions as facts. The article above discusses a peer-reviewed journal paper. This site cites hundreds of studies, and several of them argue against your contention that supermodels would generally be found better looking that the attractive feminine women I have been showing. How many studies have you cited to support your comments? Typically zero.
Any reasonable person who looks at how heavily the homosexuals promote manly women like Alessandra, how the likes of Alessandra look like in the absence of posing tricks and the assistance of make-up and digital artists, and how few feminine beauties are seen in the limelight will realize that the public hasn’t put Alessandra Ambrosio on a pedestal, the homosexuals have. My argument isn’t that the public is admiring Alessandra because the gays are telling them to. The public doesn’t admire Alessandra’s looks, period. One hasn’t shown that most people admire Alessandra’s looks unless one has presented her next to feminine beauties and still obtained a favorable response from most people.
I agree that beauty standards are influenced by culture and, once again, I am not arguing that there has been no change in beauty standards, but you have failed to make your case for reasons that I have already mentioned.
I haven’t argued that genetic differences solely explain differences in obesity proneness across ethnicities. Besides, the extent of sexual dimorphism involving the prevalence of excess body fat can vary across populations for biological reasons.
Are sex symbols a good example of what people find attractive in the culture? Not necessarily. Take 1990s sex symbol Pamela Anderson: bleached brunette, masculine, fake breasts, broad shoulders, wide rib cage (see pictures here and here). Pamela Anderson was lucky to run into a bisexual Editor-in-chief of a major publication (Playboy) who shot her to stardom utilizing posing tricks/deception. Again, unless you have Pamela contrasted with feminine beauties and most people agree that she is hot, you will not have made your case, but you won’t be able to do this according to evidence from controlled laboratory studies.
VS models will naturally be heavier than high-fashion models in general because of the requirements of lingerie modeling, but you still observe the homosexuals tolerate the minimum femininity that gets the job done, preferring to use masculinized models with breast implants to non-overweight models with naturally prominent breasts (since they will tend to be feminine elsewhere, too).
Sarah: I haven’t made the argument that a WHR of 0.7 or less is considered decent. You should understand by now that I am not interested in such measurements. It is how the woman looks that matters. Reported anthropometric measurements of models are often unreliable, and a few circumferential measurements can be too crude for analysis. Josie Maran looks more feminine than the typical fashion model and has a decent physique.
Posing/angle of photography can make the appearance of waist proportions in relation to the rest of the body vary. Everyone should know this.
You are also letting nude modeling cloud your judgment. Feminine beauty is not about having skanky looks. Heidi Montag looks like a skank even though she doesn’t pose nude. She looks much more skanky than the vast majority of women in the attractive women section. Attractive skanky-looking women belong in a sexy women section, not a feminine beauty section. I disagree that Audrina Patridge is sexy unless you are using your own definition of sexy. The conventional understanding of “sexy” requires somewhat skanky looks, and Audrina’s face isn’t skanky though her physique would pass.
Joe: Cintia’s physique isn’t very feminine either.
Tom: Dasha is feminine, not too feminine.
The transsexual: Who is saying that Alessandra is a transsexual? Chances are that none of the Victoria’s Secret models are transsexuals. There is no transphobia here. Male-to-female transsexuals generally do not look like women, and too many VS models have the more masculine male-to-female transsexual look to them, especially clear in their candids, which explains the title.
Dear Anonymous. Though I do not agree with erik on some points I have to disagree with you too, since I think that no matter how pretty they look, aberrations to nature are still that, aberrations. I mean, I once saw a man who wanted to be a pig, and he ate like a pig and had a little costume and stuff. And he didnt look bad. But that will never make it natural. So you "just" want to look like a woman instead of what you were born being. Sure, nowadays that sounds normal. But who will draw the line for the future. Are we on the brink seeing some zoophilic parades too?
Oh, and thats why calling Alessandra a transexual is really an insult.
Open two enlarged images for comparison on different Tabs (Mouse Wheel Click)
and switch rapidly between them with Control + (Page UP & DOWN)
It's amusing. For instance:
Try that with #1 & #7
Her boobs seem to grow! LOL =)
And you can tell apart very subtle differences, like the position of the shoulders (#1 is more "martial") etc.
BTW, #8 has manly shaped buttocks (rounded)
It's like the buttocks of a man hanging from a woman's hips.
EW... xp
> You can see her waist changes from picture to picture.
You must be kidding me... all those pictures are from the same photo session.
Are you implying that she took a 5-minutes break, wolfed down a sandwich and her waist expanded or something?
It can't be that: you said that it changes "from picture to picture"
It must be something called "perspective", that's my guess.
Stop making outbred arguments, please.
You sound like a bleached brunette.
Hi, I'm a male-to-female transsexual and I ended up finding this on a google search for "very feminine guys." I've also been searching for very masculine women to use as models/inspirations for some characters I'm going to draw in a comic.
But an-y-ways, I just wanted to say that there's alot of transphobia here. So what if these women are transexuals? They've managed to come along ways in their life. If you would have asked these models if they thought they could be models for Victoria's secret when they first discovered their gender problems, they would have thought it completely impossible -- and yet they managed to do it, somehow. I see that as commendable.
I can understand some sort of...inferiority from genetic women who feel bad that transsexuals look better than them...But that inferriority is only coming because the person in question doesn't see the transexual as a woman. Then it's just another woman that looks better than another woman. (And there's always someone who looks better than you.)
Anyway, I probably won't be checking back on this since I found it so randomly, but I thought that I'd say something. With something to think about, make it a great day!
--X
I actually find this video extremely powerful. I don't think Dove's message is that it takes "fakery" to manufacture beauty, but rather, that most of what we see out there (in the form of advertisement, etc.) has been faked and that even the most ordinary woman can be and is greatly enhanced through the use of photoshop techniques, airbrushing, makeup, etc. The message to me is "Real" beauty must start with the real woman...not with something manipulated and digitally enhanced.
I don't think Dove tries to go further than this, ie in defining what real beauty constitutes without all the fakery, but of course most people recognize there are truly beautiful people out there who don't need any help at all to look good. 95% of women know already that they are not in that category.
Based on what I've seen with Dove, they are in no way trying to set a new standard of beauty (feminine or otherwise), but are more geared towards women accepting who they are with regards to weight, skin, hair, etc. Their message will probably not go any deeper than this and so is only effective within certain limits; but any little bit helps.
I'll resend the message once I sign onto my email.
According to your theory that a WHR of .7 or less is what is considered "decent," Josie Maran doesn't have a decent figure in some photos I have seen of her.
On the subject of WHR, a woman's waist can change all the time. I've seen women who have a very small looking waist in certain pictures and then they will have a straight up-and-down figure in other pictures.
Sarah: I respond to all emails where a response is warranted though usually not promptly and in a few cases it has taken me two months-plus to get back to someone. I already told you that I didn’t get any emails from you. You have my email address right. Just resend it.
There is plenty that is wrong with using profanity like you have regardless of age. Profanity is not an appropriate rebuttal to anyone’s arguments. It is also basic etiquette to behave while one is in someone else’s house. You don’t own this site and should have the courtesy to not trash it with profane commentary, on your own initiative.
My age has nothing to do with me finding your profanity foul. I’m 33 and was in my late teens/early twenties not that long ago, and whereas I have uttered plenty of profanity, and still do to some extent, I have never used profanity in the contexts that you have.
Do not sum up my argument about why many heterosexual men do not realize the extent of masculinization of fashion models and numerous other celebrities in terms of brainwashing. I don’t believe in the hypothetical notion of brainwashing.
Most of the women in the attractive women section do not have a sleazy/skanky look to their face. The women with such looks are what you would call sexy women if they are also reasonably attractive. Josie Maran has a decent physique.
Danielle: No one is saying that you have pretended to know all there is about feminist theories, but your poor understanding of some of the basics of feminism is something of interest. I am not a scholar of feminism myself, but I believe that I have a decent grasp of Feminism 101.
It is futile to argue that I am as bad as the homosexuals when it comes to runway models. I have already explained that one cannot indulge in negative health behaviors to acquire feminine beauty as opposed to dieting or excessive exercise that may be prompted by exposure to thin high-fashion models. I also do not have a problem with alternative fashion industries. The homosexuals can have their own fashion industry for all I care if there is a feminine beauty high-fashion alternative and hopefully a fashion alternative that uses closer to ordinary looking women. My argument isn’t that only my preferred type should be working as fashion models.
My solution to the thinness problem is straightforward. Basically, educate the public so that at-risk-for-anorexic-behaviors girls and women understand the reasons behind the looks of high-fashion models, and force the homosexuals to prove that their thin models are healthy and not dieting.
Heidi was around 18, I believe, when she was discovered. She was obviously forced to starve, which she has admitted. She wouldn’t have voluntarily done it, but had to do it for her career. She was big boned and wide-hipped and wasn’t going to be a big-name high-fashion model, and so she didn’t push herself too much. She was just lucky to end up in Sports Illustrated and as a Victoria’s Secret model, and thereby achieve stardom.
What do you mean there is nothing special about the Stefane Monzön pubic hair show? Do you not see the creativity oozing out of the presentation?
You are the one who is misrepresenting me but accuse me of misrepresenting feminism. I haven’t argued that I am better than homosexuals or men who have narrowly escaped nonheterosexuality. I am just glad that I am not either type. I have also clearly argued that the physical attractiveness of individuals from different ethnic groups cannot be objectively compared. The point about non-European preference for face shape was that they prefer more overall derived than average features for their group, which translates to closer to European norms, but this should not be confused with/described as a preference for more European facial features since there are European features that non-Europeans do not necessarily appreciate such as thinner lips or pale skin. Am I demonizing you/other critics or are you demonizing me?
Susie: There are not a whole lot of old threads within this site...just look at the comment posting dates...so you don’t have to apologize.
One doesn’t have to carefully think about marketing when there is demand for a product and hardly any competition. If there were a prominent lingerie company using feminine models, then the others offering comparable lingerie products would have some competition and would need to use more feminine models, but VS can so far get away with its choice of masculinized models because other lingerie companies use similar models. You are again looking at the gay domination of the fashion business, which spills over to lingerie companies, as the reason why lingerie models are often masculinized, not marketing considerations.
Once again, whereas women would typically not have a problem arousing their male partner, lingerie would help put their partner in the mood when he normally would not be. Women are not necessarily passive recipients of their partner’s advances, but some like to initiate their own contact.
The point about what kind of models would be appropriate for lingerie modeling was explained in the first part of this series.
Priscilla: I appreciate the blessings.
Erik, I don't have a poor understanding of any of the "basics" of feminism. Unlike you I understand that many people who identify themselves as feminists have widely different opinions on what constitutes as oppression and they have different opinions on sex, pornography, science, politics and everything under the sun. You have a poor grasp of everything Erik so please don't try to insult anyone on that basis.
Women can indulge in negative behaviors because of the desire to be "feminine". They may not be able to achieve your ideal without major surgery but they will still feel bad about not looking like your nude skanks. Most women do not diet in order to look like high fashion models anyways.
You are completely delusional if you believe that an "alternative" fashion industry will arise based on model selection. Models are not that important Erik. If the designer’s clientele respond more favorably to having skanks on the runway then the designers will put skanks on their runways. You don't seem to understand that these designers are running a business. They are running businesses focused on providing luxury goods not on jack off material for losers and self esteem bolstering for the average woman.
If these young girls who are at risk for anorexia are being inspired by any public figures its not the high fashion models but the ultra thin celebrities. You have no proof that the thinness of these celebrities is directly or even indirectly influenced by high fashion models. You have formed hypotheses that sound good in your head and attempted to present them as fact. The fashion designers do not own the models who walk in their shows or star in their campaigns. They have no responsibility towards the health of these models.
Heidi was an adult when she started so she could not be forced to do anything. She made a decision based on her perceived options. She was not forced to pursue a high fashion career she WANTED to pursue a career in modeling.
I know that you posted that video as a lame attempt at mocking the fashion industry but you failed. That Stefane Monzon presentation was not a fashion show. You said it yourself it’s a pubic hair show.
You characterize high fashion designers as mentally ill, sadomasochistic pederasts but you claim that you are not demonizing them? Oh please!!! Anyone with a brain can tell that you are a homophobic white supremacist nut job so cut the crap Erica.
I just got a new laptop and for some reason I cannot attain a picture's "properties" to post it here. I'll attempt it again:
Audrina Patridge
http://buzznet-00.vo.llnwd.net/media/jj1/2007/10/maxim-lauren/audrina-patridge-maxim-01.jpg
Van Wanderer:
Get a grip. In my saying her wastes changes from picture to picture I'm talking about in the photos, not in real life. Did you miss the part where I said they were from the same photoshoot as well? Obviously not. Read something thoroughly before deciding to comment on it, okay sweetie?
"You sound like a bleach brunette"
That doesn't even make sense.
Erik, I never claimed Heidi doesn't look skanky; she does. I was merely commenting on her waist-to-hip proportions. I don't think she is attractive, either.
How is Audrina not sexy? And you're saying her body is skanky? What? Maybe your idea of what is "skanky" differentiates from mine - in my opinion, skanky = whorish looking, and most whores have big boobs and curvy, wide hips, the look you prefer.
Audrina has a petite, tight body with average-sized breasts and slim hips.
http://justjared.buzznet.com/gallery/photos.php?yr=2007&mon=10&evt=maxim-lauren&pic=audrina-patridge-maxim-01.jpg
I would rather have her body than any other "model" in your attractive women's section.
In my opinion, one could look sexy without having to look skanky. Sexy means sexually appealing in a classy way, and skanky means sexually appealing in a dirty way.
Cute/Pretty = Kristin Kreuk
Sexy = Audrina Patridge
Skanky = The majority of the women that you have in this site's "attractive women."
Just a few examples.
I think also that the fasion industry is constantly evolving and females with more masculine features, while they may not be what you define as "pretty" or "sexy" they represent what is different. To see masculine type features on women is just another way that the world evolves. The feminine features one can always find on porn sites but the fashion industry is not defined by female or male. They like to mix things up and have interesting and contrasting body shapes, that are not so easily defined as female or male. I think you are thinking that fashion models need to be attractive but that is not the case fashion models provoke thought and change our perceptions on what we are naturally inclined to conclude in regards to the human body.
So basically to be hyper feminine and have a typical hoslistic female shape - hour glass, small jaw, small rib cage, narrow shoulders... you need to have like 95 percent of estrogen cursuing through your veins. So maybe they should start injecting girls with estrogen at a young age to give the men the perfect girlfriend for them. But what about mind, perhaps these hyper feminine females are a little on the stupid side and maybe a little on the dull side, perhaps that is a side effect of too much estrogen. I mean you see a lot of this type of shape and look in porn stars and I'm sure a lot of intelligent women enter that business. Personally I think that a super small rib cage and a long torso leading to a really wide pelvis looks kind of alien like.
whoever owns this site deserves an award for the most
awesome REAL beauty site on the internet!!!
If you read this, TONS of KUDOS!!
you make a difference to every beauty!
God Bless
Kassi: I didn’t post the ad titled, “don’t click here unless you are 18.” The ads that you see are computer generated, and whereas I could block specific ads, I don’t select the ads that are displayed.
Danielle: Don’t accuse me of presenting my opinions as facts. The article above discusses a peer-reviewed journal paper. This site cites hundreds of studies, and several of them argue against your contention that supermodels would generally be found better looking that the attractive feminine women I have been showing. How many studies have you cited to support your comments? Typically zero.
Any reasonable person who looks at how heavily the homosexuals promote manly women like Alessandra, how the likes of Alessandra look like in the absence of posing tricks and the assistance of make-up and digital artists, and how few feminine beauties are seen in the limelight will realize that the public hasn’t put Alessandra Ambrosio on a pedestal, the homosexuals have. My argument isn’t that the public is admiring Alessandra because the gays are telling them to. The public doesn’t admire Alessandra’s looks, period. One hasn’t shown that most people admire Alessandra’s looks unless one has presented her next to feminine beauties and still obtained a favorable response from most people.
I agree that beauty standards are influenced by culture and, once again, I am not arguing that there has been no change in beauty standards, but you have failed to make your case for reasons that I have already mentioned.
I haven’t argued that genetic differences solely explain differences in obesity proneness across ethnicities. Besides, the extent of sexual dimorphism involving the prevalence of excess body fat can vary across populations for biological reasons.
Are sex symbols a good example of what people find attractive in the culture? Not necessarily. Take 1990s sex symbol Pamela Anderson: bleached brunette, masculine, fake breasts, broad shoulders, wide rib cage (see pictures here and here). Pamela Anderson was lucky to run into a bisexual Editor-in-chief of a major publication (Playboy) who shot her to stardom utilizing posing tricks/deception. Again, unless you have Pamela contrasted with feminine beauties and most people agree that she is hot, you will not have made your case, but you won’t be able to do this according to evidence from controlled laboratory studies.
VS models will naturally be heavier than high-fashion models in general because of the requirements of lingerie modeling, but you still observe the homosexuals tolerate the minimum femininity that gets the job done, preferring to use masculinized models with breast implants to non-overweight models with naturally prominent breasts (since they will tend to be feminine elsewhere, too).
Sarah: I haven’t made the argument that a WHR of 0.7 or less is considered decent. You should understand by now that I am not interested in such measurements. It is how the woman looks that matters. Reported anthropometric measurements of models are often unreliable, and a few circumferential measurements can be too crude for analysis. Josie Maran looks more feminine than the typical fashion model and has a decent physique.
Posing/angle of photography can make the appearance of waist proportions in relation to the rest of the body vary. Everyone should know this.
You are also letting nude modeling cloud your judgment. Feminine beauty is not about having skanky looks. Heidi Montag looks like a skank even though she doesn’t pose nude. She looks much more skanky than the vast majority of women in the attractive women section. Attractive skanky-looking women belong in a sexy women section, not a feminine beauty section. I disagree that Audrina Patridge is sexy unless you are using your own definition of sexy. The conventional understanding of “sexy” requires somewhat skanky looks, and Audrina’s face isn’t skanky though her physique would pass.
8D: Stop using multiple aliases (e.g., Wang).
Joe: Cintia’s physique isn’t very feminine either.
Tom: Dasha is feminine, not too feminine.
The transsexual: Who is saying that Alessandra is a transsexual? Chances are that none of the Victoria’s Secret models are transsexuals. There is no transphobia here. Male-to-female transsexuals generally do not look like women, and too many VS models have the more masculine male-to-female transsexual look to them, especially clear in their candids, which explains the title.
Dear Anonymous. Though I do not agree with erik on some points I have to disagree with you too, since I think that no matter how pretty they look, aberrations to nature are still that, aberrations. I mean, I once saw a man who wanted to be a pig, and he ate like a pig and had a little costume and stuff. And he didnt look bad. But that will never make it natural. So you "just" want to look like a woman instead of what you were born being. Sure, nowadays that sounds normal. But who will draw the line for the future. Are we on the brink seeing some zoophilic parades too?
Oh, and thats why calling Alessandra a transexual is really an insult.
erik is gonna be raped. by a guy. jk
he alreayd has been
Erik
is dash an example of extreme femininity? above average femininity,what point of the masculinity-femininity scale does dash lie?
Erik
How feminien is the model daniella lloyd?
#7 No competition.
Here's a trick for FireFox users:
Open two enlarged images for comparison on different Tabs (Mouse Wheel Click)
and switch rapidly between them with Control + (Page UP & DOWN)
It's amusing. For instance:
Try that with #1 & #7
Her boobs seem to grow! LOL =)
And you can tell apart very subtle differences, like the position of the shoulders (#1 is more "martial") etc.
BTW, #8 has manly shaped buttocks (rounded)
It's like the buttocks of a man hanging from a woman's hips.
EW... xp
Sarah:
> You can see her waist changes from picture to picture.
You must be kidding me... all those pictures are from the same photo session.
Are you implying that she took a 5-minutes break, wolfed down a sandwich and her waist expanded or something?
It can't be that: you said that it changes "from picture to picture"
It must be something called "perspective", that's my guess.
Stop making outbred arguments, please.
You sound like a bleached brunette.
Hi, I'm a male-to-female transsexual and I ended up finding this on a google search for "very feminine guys." I've also been searching for very masculine women to use as models/inspirations for some characters I'm going to draw in a comic.
But an-y-ways, I just wanted to say that there's alot of transphobia here. So what if these women are transexuals? They've managed to come along ways in their life. If you would have asked these models if they thought they could be models for Victoria's secret when they first discovered their gender problems, they would have thought it completely impossible -- and yet they managed to do it, somehow. I see that as commendable.
I can understand some sort of...inferiority from genetic women who feel bad that transsexuals look better than them...But that inferriority is only coming because the person in question doesn't see the transexual as a woman. Then it's just another woman that looks better than another woman. (And there's always someone who looks better than you.)
Anyway, I probably won't be checking back on this since I found it so randomly, but I thought that I'd say something. With something to think about, make it a great day!
--X
Erik you mean cintia dickers face isnt very feminine as the picture you have cited is of her face or you mean her face and body?
Hi Erik:
I actually find this video extremely powerful. I don't think Dove's message is that it takes "fakery" to manufacture beauty, but rather, that most of what we see out there (in the form of advertisement, etc.) has been faked and that even the most ordinary woman can be and is greatly enhanced through the use of photoshop techniques, airbrushing, makeup, etc. The message to me is "Real" beauty must start with the real woman...not with something manipulated and digitally enhanced.
I don't think Dove tries to go further than this, ie in defining what real beauty constitutes without all the fakery, but of course most people recognize there are truly beautiful people out there who don't need any help at all to look good. 95% of women know already that they are not in that category.
Based on what I've seen with Dove, they are in no way trying to set a new standard of beauty (feminine or otherwise), but are more geared towards women accepting who they are with regards to weight, skin, hair, etc. Their message will probably not go any deeper than this and so is only effective within certain limits; but any little bit helps.
And here are the pictures of Heidi that didn't show up.
http://egotastic.com/entertainment/celebrities/heidi-montag/heidi-montag-baywatch-style-bikini-pictures-002835
You can see her waist changes from picture to picture.
Sorry about the triple posts.
Oops.
Pictures of Audrina here, that I meant to post:
http://justjared.buzznet.com/2007/09/23/lauren-conrad-maxim/
Oh and, Erik. Audrina is what is considered SEXY; she manages to look hot (opposite of cute) but she also looks classy; your models are just skanky.
I'll resend the message once I sign onto my email.
According to your theory that a WHR of .7 or less is what is considered "decent," Josie Maran doesn't have a decent figure in some photos I have seen of her.
http://www.wallpapers-zone.com/wallpapers/stars_et_top_models_femmes/josie_maran/josie_maran_045.jpg
http://9blogs.com/uploads/posts/1169514302_josie_maran__bikini_and_lingerie_series.jpg
http://www.chrudat.com/josie_maran/josie_maran30.jpg
On the subject of WHR, a woman's waist can change all the time. I've seen women who have a very small looking waist in certain pictures and then they will have a straight up-and-down figure in other pictures.
Heidi Montag, for example:
http://egotastic.com/image?path=0710/heidi-montag-bikini-1-32.jpg&info=Heidi%20Montag%20Bikini%20Pictures
http://egotastic.com/image?path=0710/heidi-montag-bikini-1-44.jpg&info=Heidi%20Montag%20Bikini%20Pictures
Nice figure, right? Well these are from the same photoshoot:
http://egotastic.com/image?path=0710/heidi-montag-bikini-1-48.jpg&info=Heidi%20Montag%20Bikini%20Pictures
http://egotastic.com/image?path=0710/heidi-montag-bikini-1-29.jpg&info=Heidi%20Montag%20Bikini%20Pictures
And then there's her friend, Audrina Partridge:
http://justjared.buzznet.com/gallery/photos.php?yr=2007&mon=09&evt=conrad-maxim&pic=lauren-conrad-maxim-07.jpg
[url=http://www.watt-up.com/j_gallery/Audrina_Partridge/slides/Audrina_Partri...(76).html]http://www.watt-up.com/j_gallery/Audrina_Partridge/slides/Audrina_Partridge%20(76).html[/url]
[url=http://www.watt-up.com/j_gallery/Audrina_Partridge/slides/Audrina%20Part...(70).html]http://www.watt-up.com/j_gallery/Audrina_Partridge/slides/Audrina%20Partridge%20(70).html[/url]
[url=http://www.watt-up.com/j_gallery/Audrina_Partridge/slides/Audrina_Partri...(19).html]http://www.watt-up.com/j_gallery/Audrina_Partridge/slides/Audrina_Partridge%20(19).html[/url]
A woman's body can change even throughout the day. When I eat a lot, my waist expands. When can you really determine what your WHR truly is?
Alessandra Ambrosio is listed as having a .69 WHR, yet in most of her pictures, it doesn't look that way.
And Van De Wanderer, can't you just LOOK UP the definition of inbreeding?
Sarah: I respond to all emails where a response is warranted though usually not promptly and in a few cases it has taken me two months-plus to get back to someone. I already told you that I didn’t get any emails from you. You have my email address right. Just resend it.
There is plenty that is wrong with using profanity like you have regardless of age. Profanity is not an appropriate rebuttal to anyone’s arguments. It is also basic etiquette to behave while one is in someone else’s house. You don’t own this site and should have the courtesy to not trash it with profane commentary, on your own initiative.
My age has nothing to do with me finding your profanity foul. I’m 33 and was in my late teens/early twenties not that long ago, and whereas I have uttered plenty of profanity, and still do to some extent, I have never used profanity in the contexts that you have.
Do not sum up my argument about why many heterosexual men do not realize the extent of masculinization of fashion models and numerous other celebrities in terms of brainwashing. I don’t believe in the hypothetical notion of brainwashing.
Most of the women in the attractive women section do not have a sleazy/skanky look to their face. The women with such looks are what you would call sexy women if they are also reasonably attractive. Josie Maran has a decent physique.
Danielle: No one is saying that you have pretended to know all there is about feminist theories, but your poor understanding of some of the basics of feminism is something of interest. I am not a scholar of feminism myself, but I believe that I have a decent grasp of Feminism 101.
It is futile to argue that I am as bad as the homosexuals when it comes to runway models. I have already explained that one cannot indulge in negative health behaviors to acquire feminine beauty as opposed to dieting or excessive exercise that may be prompted by exposure to thin high-fashion models. I also do not have a problem with alternative fashion industries. The homosexuals can have their own fashion industry for all I care if there is a feminine beauty high-fashion alternative and hopefully a fashion alternative that uses closer to ordinary looking women. My argument isn’t that only my preferred type should be working as fashion models.
My solution to the thinness problem is straightforward. Basically, educate the public so that at-risk-for-anorexic-behaviors girls and women understand the reasons behind the looks of high-fashion models, and force the homosexuals to prove that their thin models are healthy and not dieting.
Heidi was around 18, I believe, when she was discovered. She was obviously forced to starve, which she has admitted. She wouldn’t have voluntarily done it, but had to do it for her career. She was big boned and wide-hipped and wasn’t going to be a big-name high-fashion model, and so she didn’t push herself too much. She was just lucky to end up in Sports Illustrated and as a Victoria’s Secret model, and thereby achieve stardom.
What do you mean there is nothing special about the Stefane Monzön pubic hair show? Do you not see the creativity oozing out of the presentation?
You are the one who is misrepresenting me but accuse me of misrepresenting feminism. I haven’t argued that I am better than homosexuals or men who have narrowly escaped nonheterosexuality. I am just glad that I am not either type. I have also clearly argued that the physical attractiveness of individuals from different ethnic groups cannot be objectively compared. The point about non-European preference for face shape was that they prefer more overall derived than average features for their group, which translates to closer to European norms, but this should not be confused with/described as a preference for more European facial features since there are European features that non-Europeans do not necessarily appreciate such as thinner lips or pale skin. Am I demonizing you/other critics or are you demonizing me?
Susie: There are not a whole lot of old threads within this site...just look at the comment posting dates...so you don’t have to apologize.
One doesn’t have to carefully think about marketing when there is demand for a product and hardly any competition. If there were a prominent lingerie company using feminine models, then the others offering comparable lingerie products would have some competition and would need to use more feminine models, but VS can so far get away with its choice of masculinized models because other lingerie companies use similar models. You are again looking at the gay domination of the fashion business, which spills over to lingerie companies, as the reason why lingerie models are often masculinized, not marketing considerations.
Once again, whereas women would typically not have a problem arousing their male partner, lingerie would help put their partner in the mood when he normally would not be. Women are not necessarily passive recipients of their partner’s advances, but some like to initiate their own contact.
The point about what kind of models would be appropriate for lingerie modeling was explained in the first part of this series.
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